Hello,
I had a Spine Thoracic MRI done this week due to severe upper back pain which I've been having since 2008. My neurosurgeon is on vacation until Monday but the written report indicated "moderate anterior disc bulges at T8-T9 and T9-T10" and "small hemangioma is incidentally seen in the T8 vertebral body." The other findings weren't significant but these 2 are enough for a life time, right! Smile

Anyhow, I know that the hemangioma is a benign tumor but does anyone else have similar diagnosis? If so, what have your treatment options been and did they include surgery? What do you do for the pain, which is beyond belief!! I'm going to talk with my neurosurgeon on Monday when he returns from vacation but until then, any insight and advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Kimberly
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replied April 10th, 2009
Experienced User
Hi Kimberly

Your spinal problems are related to the first part of your small intestine, the duodenum.
This often leads to duodenal ulcers. Allergies to potatoes often cause this part of the small intestine to be affected, which, in turn, cause your spinal problems. Allergies do that. It is generally understood that spinal misalignments cause allergies but it is also the other way around. allergies cause the muscles to contract and pull the spine out of alignment. Have this misalignment corrected by a competent chiropractor, and avoid potatoes. You need to check labels and be very careful as potato starch is in a lot of things.

Good luck

kinetico
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replied April 10th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
I'm not a doctor or qualified to fully interpret your MRIs. You need your spine surgeon for that.

What I highly doubt though is that part of your small intestine, the duodenum is the cause of your disc bulges in your thoracic spine or is the cause of your hemangioma.

Chiropractors love to claim that they can fix anything wrong in the body with and that spinal adjustments will solve all the problems that you have.

Nor do I believe is that avoiding potatoes and potato starch will solve your problems either.

If all medical things that chiropractors claim they can cure where actually cured by them, there would be far fewer people with spine problems, allergies and all the other medical problems that chiros claim are caused by misaligned spines.

Best to be treated by a competent spine specialist that has an MD after his/her name.

Good luck

Fran
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replied April 10th, 2009
Experienced User
Hi there, Fran

You might be interested in the following information;

Neuroanatomical basis of clinical neurology
By Orhan Arslan

The superior mesenteric plexus is a continuation of the celiac plexus which is formed by sympathetic fibers of the ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth thoracic and the first lumbar (T10-L1) spinal segments, and by the parasympathetic fibers of the vagus nerve. This plexus supplies part of the duodenum, jejunum, ileum, and approximately the right hand side 2/3rd of the large intestine.

I fully agree on your sentiments re; chiropractors, but in Australia 18000 people a year are killed by medical mistakes (10% of all admissions) 1800 through traffic accidents, and 3 through chiropractic, 1 person died while having a massage, and none through Kinesiology. Medical errors in the health care system are estimated at between 3.2 and 5.4 per cent in the US, 9 per cent in Denmark, 10 to 11,7 per cent in the UK but a shocking 10.6 to 16.6 in Australia (Bedkober, B., IPA Review, March 2007).
The figure of 10 per cent was just recently confirmed in a government report. According to Wilson (“Quality in Australian Health Care”, 1995) one in six hospital admissions generates an adverse event, half of which is preventable and six in every 1,000 admissions are ending in a preventable death from an adverse event including complications.

I'll take the chiropractor anytime!

Kinetico
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replied April 12th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
Kinetico,

I'm still not seeing anything you are posting that indicates that the OP's post about a thoracic MRI and disc bulges has anything to do with the small intestine or the duodenum.

I don't know where you have gotten your info to post on percentages with medical care in different countries, and I don't know how accurate they are, who did the studies or who provided the information.

What I will say, is that experience of people that I know that have used chiropractors for spinal problems have all ended up far worse off than they would have, had they not gone for chiropractic care.

Not only where they all out substantial amounts of money, but many of them would never have required spinal surgery had they not gone and many of those that did go required far more extensive surgery than they would have required had they not gone.

I'm talking about more than 20 people who opted to try chiropractors instead of spine surgeons and the results where horrendous.

Chiropractors do not check the medical condition of a patient, the condition of their bone structure, do they or do they not have osteoporosis, osteopenia etc.

By not doing this, their manipulations can and many times do result in broken bones and far more serious injuries than should ever happen.

Neck manipulations can result in paralysis and strokes, and has happened many, many times.

4 people I know ended up with fractured vertebraes because of weakened bones from osteoporosis and they where not elderly people.

1 person ended up with a fractured hip because of the same above.

several people ended up with more than one disc herniated because of manipulations and the herniations where so severe that instead of simple micodisectomy on 1 disc, they where forced into a 2 level fusion.

There where at least 6 people who where forced into discetomies because of the chiropractic care that otherwise would have no doubt healed with the proper conservative treatment from a spine surgeon, such as 10 weeks of physical therapy.

You can take the chiropractor any time, I'll stick with the spine surgeon, the ones with an MD after their name and continue to advise anyone and everyone to stay as far away from a chiropractor as possible.

Fran
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replied April 12th, 2009
Experienced User
Fran
Hi Fran

I quoted my sources in my letter.

In an editorial in the highly esteemed 'British Medical Journal', titled 'Where is the Wisdom? The Poverty of Medical Evidence, BMJ's editor Dr. Richard Smith recounts a lecture he attended with renowned health policy consultant Dr. David Eddy.

Eddy found, after doing significant research, that only about 13% of medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence and that only 1% of the articles in medical journals are scientifically sound.

Why is that? Because most of those articles quote from other articles which make unsupported and unfounded claims.

The High Risks of the Medical Approach

Dr. Lucian Leape, researcher at the Harvard Medical School of Public Health, also states that only 13% of medical procedures have ever been tested for appropriateness by randomized trials.
He noted that adverse events occurred in 3.7 percent of all hospitalizations. Worse yet, 13.6 percent of those adverse events led to death! [ 3 ].
He is quoted as saying, “Medicine is now a high risk industry, like aviation.
But, the chance of dying in an aviation accident is one in 2 million, while the risk of dying from a medical accident is one in 200!” [ 4 ]

The most comprehensive review of “adverse events” (also referred to as “Iatrogenic Injury”) caused by modern medicine is the article Death by Medicine, written by Gary Null, Ph.D.; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; and Dorothy Smith, PhD. [ 5 ].

This fully referenced report reveals that:
• 2.2 million people experience in-hospital, adverse reactions to prescribed drugs per year.
• 20 million unnecessary antibiotics are prescribed annually for viral infections
• 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed annually, and
• 8.9 million people are exposed to unnecessary hospitalization every year!

The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year!

That is a mind-boggling 2147 people killed daily!

That's 7 jumbo jet plane crashes, each and every day.

That's a 9-11 incident occurring every other day...FOREVER. God help us all.

More Bad News For Medical Patients

A series of articles reporting on the lack of medical training in musculoskeletal disorders was published between 1998 and 2002 by Kevin B. Freedman, MD [ 7 ], [ 8 ]. It seems that the department chairs of several hospital-based orthopedic residency programs designed a basic examination on musculoskeletal competency and gave it to their residents.
82 per cent of medical school graduates failed the examination.
Four years later the test was simplified and, once again, 78% of the examinees failed to demonstrate basic competency in musculoskeletal medicine.

When this test was given to final quarter chiropractic students 70% of them passed the exact same exam! [ 9 ]

The differences between these 2 student groups should be noted.
The medical students had already graduated from medical school (as MDs) and had currently been deployed in rotation through various hospital departments.

They had also been accepted into an orthopedic residency program...as the pinnacle of medical musculoskeletal specialists.
The chiropractic students however were still just students. 80% medical failure versus 70% chiropractic success. Quite astonishing!

I am a Kinesiologist/sports therapist, and have been for a long time. Now retired, I teach and run a Health center where we help people with chronic back problems.

Your failure to 'See' is perhaps a lack of proper training as the above article indicates that even trained professionals 'fail' to see or diagnose spinal issues.

Good luck

Kinetico
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replied April 12th, 2009
Experienced User
Fran
Hi there

Me again, I forgot to mention the sources of the above info from chiro.org; Here goes;

REFERENCES:

[1] The Chiropractic Antitrust Suit ~ Wilk, et al vs. the AMA, et al
The Chiropractic Resource Archives



[2] Unconventional Medicine in the United States: Prevalence, Costs, and Patterns of Use
New England Journal of Medicine 1993 (Jan 2Cool; 328 (4): 246–252



[3] Incidence of Adverse Events and Negligence in Hospitalized Patients
Results of the Harvard Medical Practice Study I
New England Journal of Medicine 1991 (Feb 7); 324 (6): 370–376


[4] The Iatrogenic Injury Page



[5] Death by Medicine
Life Extension Foundation


[6] A Study to Examine the Effectiveness and Cost-Effectiveness of Chiropractic
Management of Low-Back Pain
Ministry of Health, Government of Ontario Canada 1993


[7] The Adequacy of Medical School Education in Musculoskeletal Medicine
Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 1998 (Oct); 80-A (10): 1421–1427



[8] Educational Deficiencies in Musculoskeletal Medicine
Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery 2002 (Apr); 84–A (4): 604–608


[9] A Comparison of Chiropractic Student Knowledge Versus Medical Residents
Proceedings of the World Federation of Chiropractic Congress 2001 Pgs. 255



By the way, most of the clients we see are victims of Conventional Musculoskeletal Medicine.
Because of a lack of after care and proper rehabilitation, which very, very few people can afford, we help those victims free of charge.

Have a good day

Kinetico
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replied April 13th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
Your posted links and sources are old and though much of the info you post is fairly accurate, again I will state that chiropractic care is not not the cure all that ends all that you try to make it out to be.

There are many, many spine patients who would suffer serious injury and permanent disability if they seek chiropractic are for the spine problems and do not seek the Medical care with a medical spine surgeon that they need.

Chiropractic care can not and I repeat can not cure all that is wrong with a spine and many, many times must be treated surgically or the results will be disastrous for the patient.

My own experience is one that would have left me all but paralyzed in my right leg with permanent nerve damage if the compression was not removed from the nerves.

And I had excellent follow up with my spine surgeon and a full 10 week course of physical therapy to get back to what I was before the spine problems developed.

As in any industry there are good and bad doctors as well and there are doctors that are knife happy.

One should always get several opinions prior to having any kind of surgery unless they are in the position that it is life or death, which does happen.

I don't know what country you are in, but most, if not all, spine surgeons in the US have their patients go to physical therapy for rehab from spine surgery. When that begins depends on what type of spine surgery they have.

And yes there are many physical therapy facilities in the US that provide rehab care for those that can't afford the bills or have no insurance to pay for it.

Fran
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