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Semi-religious Discussion. (Page 1)

I've been reading a lot of "prolife" documents lately for work and have also been comparing them to the agencies websites. One of them admonished users of the everyday birth control pill saying something to the effect of - "if you are using birth control, stop now. Leave the number and spacing of your children up to the lord. The lord would never give you what you cannot handle. Surrender to god's will on this most important issue and allow yourself to be predisposed to welcoming your pre-born children into your life."

another admonished condom users, even to prevent the spread of hiv (apparently, according to some "prolifers," you are either supposed to abstain from sex if your partner/spouse is hiv positive .O.R be prepared to be infected anyway), using the similar arguments.

Okay. My aversion to most of the comments not withstanding, it did make me start thinking about god's will. Now, the same people who wrote these comments believe, emphatically, that god is omnipotent. The definition, and the way we understand this word in reference to god, is all-powerful and almighty. So, my question is: if god is truly omnipotent and his will is that you become pregnant or have a child, then wouldn't he be able to overcome a thin layer of latex or some additional hormones?

If, what you do in your day to day life prevents "god's will" from occurring, then doesn't that necessarily call into question god's omnipotence? Is god impotent omnipotently speaking?

Or, is it that the people claiming to know "god's will" are just frequently talking out of their a$s? What do you think?
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replied January 12th, 2007
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Re: Semi-religious Discussion.
jenn_smithson wrote:
the definition, and the way we understand this word in reference to god, is all-powerful and almighty. So, my question is: if god is truly omnipotent and his will is that you become pregnant or have a child, then wouldn't he be able to overcome a thin layer of latex or some additional hormones?

If, what you do in your day to day life prevents "god's will" from occurring, then doesn't that necessarily call into question god's omnipotence? Is god impotent omnipotently speaking?

.

The response I have had from .Christians, when asking similar questions regarding .God's omnipotence, is that he could overcome the 'thin latex' etc but because he has given us free will he leaves it up to us to decide whether to follow his 'rules' or not.
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replied January 12th, 2007
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Re: Semi-religious Discussion.
purestgreen wrote:
jenn_smithson wrote:
the definition, and the way we understand this word in reference to god, is all-powerful and almighty. So, my question is: if god is truly omnipotent and his will is that you become pregnant or have a child, then wouldn't he be able to overcome a thin layer of latex or some additional hormones?

If, what you do in your day to day life prevents "god's will" from occurring, then doesn't that necessarily call into question god's omnipotence? Is god impotent omnipotently speaking?

.


The response I have had from .Christians, when asking similar questions regarding .God's omnipotence, is that he could overcome the 'thin latex' etc but because he has given us free will he leaves it up to us to decide whether to follow his 'rules' or not.
this would be fine if they could then prove that god has any rules regarding condoms, birth control, or other contraception. He doesn't. If you take a literal interpretation from the bible then the only rules that god has ever sent directly to man (if you are a believer) were the ten commandments. Nothing in any of those commandments relates to contraception.

And, this is important because contraception, even during biblical times, was widely used. It was imperfect, obviously, but both abortion and rudimentary forms of birth control were widely available and used. So, the men who wrote the bible would have known something about the contraception at that time and also what the "church" or religious elders were teaching about it. To not include a statement regarding this seems to me a large indication that god's "rules" were severely lacking in that department.

But, you brought up free will so I will just ask if our free will outweighs god's will?
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replied January 12th, 2007
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Re: Semi-religious Discussion.
I've heard it explained that god gave us free will, but he knows the outcome of every decision we could make, and he wants us to make the right choice.

I guess this is more free will than determinism...

This didn't cut it with me, as if god doesn't know what our choices will be, then he's not omnipotent.

I'm confused.

I looked up free will on wikipedia, and there is some serious reading available on it. Shocked
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replied January 12th, 2007
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Re: Semi-religious Discussion.
birch wrote:
i've heard it explained that god gave us free will, but he knows the outcome of every decision we could make, and he wants us to make the right choice.


I guess this is more free will than determinism...


This didn't cut it with me, as if god doesn't know what our choices will be, then he's not omnipotent.


I'm confused.


I looked up free will on wikipedia, and there is some serious reading available on it. Shocked


in the end, for god to be omnipotent, he already knows the desicion we are going to make. This means that any and all obstacles he puts in our way he does with the full knowledge of what choice we will make. This also means we don't actually have free will... And also that god sets us up for failure. He knew eve would take the apple; but if he truly loved them, and didn't want them to leave, then why did he create the temptation, if he already knew she'd take it? And then why did he act all pissed off when she did it? He already knew she was going to...
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replied January 13th, 2007
What I believe is, we have free will, in order to glorify his name. How does that work? Well, if adam & eve didn't sin, then jesus would have never had to die for our sins, and we would not "owe" him.


I have wondered about this myself, but supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we are not all knowing, like god) possibly understand fully.


I do not believe that god makes bad things happen to us. I believe that everything we do has an affect on our's (and other's) lives. He wants us to come to him, asking him to intervene. Why? For his glory. Yes, it does seem a pretty vain existance... But he's god! - maybe he doesn't see it so much as vain, but just the truth, "i am the greatest being alive, I should be recognized as such.".


I also think god takes pleasure in seeing us do good... It is pleasing to him, because it is all thanks to him.
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replied January 13th, 2007
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amaria wrote:
what I believe is, we have free will, in order to glorify his name. How does that work? Well, if adam & eve didn't sin, then jesus would have never had to die for our sins, and we would not "owe" him.


I have wondered about this myself, but supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we are not all knowing, like god) possibly understand fully.


I do not believe that god makes things happen to us. I believe that everything we do has an affect on our's (and other's) lives. He wants us to come to him, asking him to intervene. Why? For his glory. Yes, it does seem a pretty vain existance... But he's god! - maybe he doesn't see it so much as vain, but just the truth, "i am the greatest being alive, I should be recognized as such.".


I also think god takes pleasure in seeing us do good... It is pleasing to him, because it is all thanks to him.


but then that is not true omnipotence.
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replied January 13th, 2007
"but then that is not true omnipotence. "

what do you mean?
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replied January 13th, 2007
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amaria wrote:

i have wondered about this myself, but supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we are not all knowing, like god) possibly understand fully.


but that's just a cop-out!

amaria wrote:
.What I believe is, we have free will, in order to glorify his name. How does that work? Well, if adam & eve didn't sin, then jesus would have never had to die for our sins, and we would not "owe" him.


how exactly did .Jesus dying 'save us from our sins'? Nightangel very kindly tried to explain this one to me but i'm obviously just not getting it because it just doesn't make sense to me!
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replied January 13th, 2007
purestgreen wrote:
amaria wrote:

i have wondered about this myself, but supposedly he has reasons we cannot (as we are not all knowing, like god) possibly understand fully.


but that's just a cop-out!

amaria wrote:
.What I believe is, we have free will, in order to glorify his name. How does that work? Well, if adam & eve didn't sin, then jesus would have never had to die for our sins, and we would not "owe" him.


how exactly did .Jesus dying 'save us from our sins'? Nightangel very kindly tried to explain this one to me but i'm obviously just not getting it because it just doesn't make sense to me!


i can only comment on what I believe, but before jesus died there had to be a sacrifice made by a priest that was the only one who could talk to god... Otherwise, when we died, we would go to hell. So, god gave his son (in human form) as a sacrifice for our sins, and jesus went into hell & suffered for us... Sort of a huge payment for all of our sins, the "catch" being that we could only recieve forgiveness, if we went through him... Acknowledging his sacrife for us.



Sounds pretty crazy when I write it out like that, but i'm sure others could have said it much better than i.
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replied January 13th, 2007
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Jesus went to hell?! Can you show me the bit of the bible where it says that? I never knew that. Shocked
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replied January 13th, 2007
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purestgreen wrote:
jesus went to hell?! Can you show me the bit of the bible where it says that? I never knew that. Shocked


.The way it was explained to me, .Jesus took our sins upon himself. So upon his death, he was separated from .God. Which is why he cried out ".Father, why have you forsaken me?" .Because of our sins, he decended into .Hell upon his death, and was resurrected three days later.

Of course, this is all debatable, even among .Christians. One site that tries to explain the hell debate is http://www.Gotquestions.Org/did-jesus-go-t o-hell.Html
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replied January 13th, 2007
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ayamiyaki wrote:
purestgreen wrote:
jesus went to hell?! Can you show me the bit of the bible where it says that? I never knew that. Shocked


.The way it was explained to me, .Jesus took our sins upon himself. So upon his death, he was separated from .God. Which is why he cried out ".Father, why have you forsaken me?" .Because of our sins, he decended into .Hell upon his death, and was resurrected three days later.

Of course, this is all debatable, even among .Christians. One site that tries to explain the hell debate is http://www.Gotquestions.Org/did-jesus-go-t o-hell.Html


thank you Wink that is a very interesting website. I have enjoyed having a read of that! Reminds me of my .Divinity classes at school! Smile
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replied January 13th, 2007
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amaria wrote:

i can only comment on what I believe, but before jesus died there had to be a sacrifice made by a priest that was the only one who could talk to god... Otherwise, when we died, we would go to hell.
ok, first, if this "priest" was the only one who could talk to god, then prayer isn't necessary by lay people. Second, you don't have to refrain from "sinning" if all you have to do is make sure you pay off a priest to do a sacrifice for you upon your death. If that were true, then rich people would be the only people in heaven. In fact, one of the reasons that martin luther had such a problem with the catholic church and started the protestant reformation was the practice of paying the church (a priest or someone else affiliated with the church) to be forgiven of their "sins" without having to go to confession or do a penance.

So, if this were true, then it wouldn't matter if you led a life of "sin" if, on your death bed, you asked for forgiveness or payed off the "priest."
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replied January 13th, 2007
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amaria wrote:
"but then that is not true omnipotence. "

what do you mean?


if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.

Free will and omnipotence cannot coexist.
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replied January 14th, 2007
eiri wrote:
amaria wrote:
"but then that is not true omnipotence. "

what do you mean?


if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.


Free will and omnipotence cannot coexist.


see, I don't see it that way at all... For instance, just because he knows what you will do, does not mean that's what he wants you to do.

I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning.
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replied January 14th, 2007
jenn_smithson wrote:
amaria wrote:

i can only comment on what I believe, but before jesus died there had to be a sacrifice made by a priest that was the only one who could talk to god... Otherwise, when we died, we would go to hell.
ok, first, if this "priest" was the only one who could talk to god, then prayer isn't necessary by lay people. Second, you don't have to refrain from "sinning" if all you have to do is make sure you pay off a priest to do a sacrifice for you upon your death. If that were true, then rich people would be the only people in heaven. In fact, one of the reasons that martin luther had such a problem with the catholic church and started the protestant reformation was the practice of paying the church (a priest or someone else affiliated with the church) to be forgiven of their "sins" without having to go to confession or do a penance.

So, if this were true, then it wouldn't matter if you led a life of "sin" if, on your death bed, you asked for forgiveness or payed off the "priest."


i am wondering if you read the part of my post where I said "before jesus died".

I am not catholic, so I cannot comment on what they believe, but the way I was taught, is that god knows your heart. He knows if you are truly repentant.
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replied January 14th, 2007
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amaria wrote:
eiri wrote:
amaria wrote:
"but then that is not true omnipotence. "

what do you mean?


if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.



Free will and omnipotence cannot coexist.


see, I don't see it that way at all... For instance, just because he knows what you will do, does not mean that's what he wants you to do.


I'm not quite sure I understand your reasoning.


the characters in a movie that I have already seen are going to do what I already know is going to happen. For god, we are like watching a movie he already knows every line to. And just because I don't want the hero of the movie to kill the bay guy doesn't mean he's going to change his actions. It has already been determined; there is nothing that can be done. That is true omnipotence, and that is what god must have for true christianity to make any kind of sense.
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replied January 14th, 2007
I think I see what your saying.

Imagine that your not watching the movie, but directing it... You know what every line is, but you can change it (god doesn't have script writers & producers to deal with lol), if one of the actors just ask you to change it.

It may sound like utter nonsense, but i'm trying to incorcorate your symbolism into my belief.

So what, now? Are you going to say, "but he would know if anyone is goin to ask!"? Well, suppose (going away from your analogy) that god does give us little nudges (some call them signs), to help us ask.

Maybe god works more in our lives than we know? One thing is for sure, I am definitely not omnipotent... I have to rely alot on faith, as god asks us to do.
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replied January 14th, 2007
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amaria wrote:
i think I see what your saying.

Imagine that your not watching the movie, but directing it... You know what every line is, but you can change it (god doesn't have script writers & producers to deal with lol), if one of the actors just ask you to change it.

It may sound like utter nonsense, but i'm trying to incorcorate your symbolism into my belief.


your belief and what the bible says are two different things. True omnipotence and true free will cannot exist, for previously explained resons. If one of the actors asked god to change the script it would be no problem because he already knew the actor was going to ask to do that. You see? So since go already knew... The person didn't actually make that desicion themselves, since it was already in his plan, since he knows all.

Quote:
so what, now? Are you going to say, "but he would know if anyone is goin to ask!"? Well, suppose (going away from your analogy) that god does give us little nudges (some call them signs), to help us ask.


i did in fact say that. But once again, so what if he gives signs? He knew he was going to give a sign in order to get you to ask to change the script. He already knew. If he was truly omnipotent that is. So the nudge was already part of the big play.

Quote:
maybe god works more in our lives than we know? One thing is for sure, I am definitely not omnipotent... I have to rely alot on faith, as god asks us to do.


i maintain my position, as it hasn't been disproven yet.
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