Medical Questions > Debate Forums > Abortion Debate Forum

Mother's Body/Mother's Right 2

briz77 wrote:
abortion is an intentional violent act....
your claim is false.

your claim, that my claim is false, is unbelieveably dense.The (fetus/child/unborn baby...Take your pic) is torn to pieces, vacuumed out of her body and then thrown into a garbage bag. Thats not violent?????
nope. It is no more "violent" than the removal of a tumor is. Are you saying that cancer surgery is “violent"?
what do you think the act of abortion does and results in? An aborted baby.
Now try again and tell me, that is not a baby.
ok: "it is not a baby."

a baby is the developmental stage that begins after birth. Your claim is pure nonsense.
and yes they must be sure that they remove the entire body, or else it would sit in the woman, create infection, and harm the woman, maybe even cause her to die. Thank you.
silly you. For the vast majority of abortions, they just run an ultrasound of the uterus afterwards.
and yes..I have observed abortions (unfortunately)
so have i. No big deal. Certainly much less bloody and gruesome looking than an amputation due to diabetic gangrene, f.Ex.
d&e d&c suction aspiration and seen videos on saline and partial birth abortions.
saline abortions? Care to enlighten us about when they are done these days? And while you are at it, this weird claim of a "partial birth" abortion (utter nonsense, as "birth" is a very specific process that in no way is involved in the d&x procedure) I am sure is something you can specify the dates off as well, right?

Because you wouldn't lie to us or uncritically repost lies without checking them out, right?
... That kills an unborn baby.
it is not a baby until birth, your revisionist linguistics and deceptive description none withstanding.
do you have fingerprints? Dna? A functioning brain? A heart beat? Are you a person? A human?
huh? Are you nuts? None of the descriptors you used are defining for being a person. And given that these same features are seen in a chimpanzee, they certainly are also not descriptors of a "human" either.

And would you mind elaborating on that “functioning brain” claim? I am sure you have scientific evidence for that, right? (because I have scientific evidence to the contrary, and I will ding you on it if your claim is false. So I am very curious about that claim.)

so exactly what was the purpose for that nonsense? Can you clarify what the described features matter? What is their relevance?
ohhhhhh thats right you do.....And ohhhhhh thats right so does the unborn baby..Yea I said baby, it is a baby.
yes, you do indeed keep on saying that it is a "baby" despite the evidence against that silly claim. So you are either dumb or dishonest. Which is it?

You are not one of those silly anti-choicers who confuse emotional beliefs with facts, are you?
without any type of anesthesia..
why would you give anesthesia to tissue that doesn't feel anything? Are you also protesting that tumors are removed without anesthesia? And, btw, I am sure you know how anesthesia works, right? Otherwise you wouldn't make such claims, would you now? You wouldn't just make random claims when you don't even know if they were true, would you?

a deleloping baby is not a tumor. Enough said
actually no it isn't “enough said,” as you didn't address the points raised about your stupid nonsense claim. So the only time you can claim enough said is if you acknowledge that you were wrong.

So i'll take that as you conceding that your claim was false. Your apology is accepted.
..The baby is dismembered,
there is no baby
torn apart, and vacuumed out of the mother.
the woman is not a mother until birth.

during the pregnancy does the mother care for the baby, feed it, talk to it, love it? Why yes I think she does. After birth does the mother care for the baby? Feed it? Talkt to it? Love it? Why yes I think it does
the "baby" stage doesn't begin until after birth, and motherhood doesn't start until birth. None of the claptrap nonsense you posted does in any way contradict that. And anyway, if the pregnancy is unwanted, could you document that the woman does all those things anyway?

Or are you just engaging in babbling emotional imagery with no regard for reality?
how is it that any woman can believe that an action like this could make their life easier?
that would be because to many women it does make their lives easier.

easier or more convienent?
perhaps you suffer from some kind of illiteracy? When something is more convenient, then it is easier. Sheesh!
and, if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child,
we don't, as there is no child before birth. Please cease your deceptions and misrepresentations. They seriously harm your credibility.

well if there is no child before birth what is there?
most of the pregnancy, the developmental stage is either an embryo or a fetus. The stages "child" or "baby" or infant" don't begin until after birth.
why do you think womens bellies become bigger? Hmmmm maybe because there is a growing, developing baby in there? Oh thats right there is
nope, there is an embryo or fetus in there.
I think I just explaind that there is a child
no, you made some wild claim based on your subjective opinion which runs contrary to established definitions of what a fetus is. You fervently believing that it is a "child" doesn't make it so. You can claim it is a bicycle for all I care, and it still would be a fetus.
there have been countless stories of women who were raped and aborted the baby. Most of those women reported that their abortions felt like a degrading form of medical rape, and that the association between abortion and sexual assault is extremely strong.
i say that you are lying, that your claim is false. Please document that claim of yours.
and I say that your claim that I am lying is false. I have number of websites that scientifically back me up. If youd like the url id be happy to give those to you.
yes, I actually insist that you do. You claim that these websites are making "scientific" claims. I would like to verify that for myself, just to be sure you are not lying and claiming non-scientific claims to be scientific. Because your posts in general are of questionable honesty. So when you make such claims I would like to verify that for myself.

So you claim websites with "scientific" documentation for your claims. I would like to verify that, so please provide the urls, thanks.
rather than easing the psychological burdens of the rape victim abortion adds to them.
please provide evidence for that lie. I have evidence to the contrary per scientific studies. But given that it is your claim, you get to first document that you have evidence for what otherwise is known to be a lie.

again I have the evidence, just ask.Http://www.Godandscience.Org/doctrine/ scienceabortion.Html
ohh look heres one. Whould you loke any more? Believe me I have plenty.
well, I will need some other ones, because when I went to that link, it told me:

“oops! Error 404 page not found”

so yes, I would like several other sites so at least one of them confirms your silly claim.
i am not a liar thank you.
well, I actually established that earlier. The best you can say now is that you are not lying about this. But then, my actual scientific data contradicts your claim, so I am suspecting that yes you are still a liar. But I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and waiting until I have seen your actual evidence.
and what about the rape victims who choose to keep their babies? If she can feel that if she can get through that pregnancy she will have conquered the rape. And by giving birth she can reclaim much of her lost self esteem.
if that is how she feels and if that is her choice, then that is indeed what she should be allowed to do. After all, that is what pro-choice is all about, the letting the woman make her own choice.

giving birth, especially when conception was not desired is a totally selfless act, a display of courage, strength, and honor.
is it? Because you say so?

do you know anything about the psycological burdens that comes along with rape? What about abortion.
well, yes I do, as I deal with those people for a living.
it is a proven fact that 100% of women who kept their babies after rape were happy they did so and felt better about themselves
really? A “proven fact”? Do you mind providing the actual proof? Once again, the science and my experience indicates that you are outright lying. But again, I am willing to wait until you provide evidence for that claim of yours. It shouldn’t be that hard. After all, a ‘proven fact” would have evidence readily available. So I am awaiting your evidence in the near future, thanks.
and it is also a proven fact that 93% of women who aborted after rape regretted their decision and stated that it only heavied the pain, sadness, psycological problems etc.
and once again, everything I know says that you are lying, but again, please provide that readily available evidence for your “proven fact.”

this should prove interesting.
it is proof that she is better than the rapist. While he was selfish she can be generous. While he destroyed she can nurture.
ah, what a nice implication, that if she aborts, she is not better than the rapist. What a despicable claim you make here. How utterly misogynistic. You should be ashamed of yourself.

did I say that if they aborted they were not better than the rapist...Umm no, I said buy giving birth it is proof that she is beter than the rapist..
yes, you are implying that only through keeping the pregnancy will she be different than the rapist. You are saying that she needs to carry on with the pregnancy to give “proof” that she is different.

But perhaps you would care to restate that claim in a somewhat different tone to avoid such a misconception? Once again, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
i made no comment about the women who aborted. And you should be ahamed of yourself for twisting my words aroung and also putting words in my mouth.
really? What part of my observation was unreasonable?
what rape takes away from a woman, abortion does not restore.
she alone can know about that. She is the expert in her own life, you are not. As such, you have no basis for making that claim.

abortion does not restore anything, because an abortion takes away.
nonsense. It restores her pregnancy-free status so she doesn’t have to endure a daily reminder opf the rape.
it removes a delveloping child.
nonsense. As I have pointed out previously, “child” is a developmental stage that isn’t reached until after birth. But you do seem to be a great fan of revisionist linguistics, so I shouldn’t surprised that you resort to such dishonest misrepresentations.
the only thing it does is remove what the woman believes to be a problem.
ah, so it solves her problem. That certainly is a strong endorsement for her right to make that decision.
to the woman it is a second assault, a disturbing reminder of the violence she has already suffered.
please provide evidence for that lie, that the raped woman actually feels that way.
www.Abortionismurde*r.Com (again the * is so I can type the word)
heres your evidence.
well, I have been referred to that site previously (either by you or blue, I don’t remember), and I took a look at it again. I couldn’t find anything providing scientific evidence for your claim, so would you mind pointing me to the specific web page where the evidence actually is posted?
for the record...In case you have not recently learned...I dont say things unliess I can back them up.
well, sorry but I have not yet been able to learn that, as you have sofar posted a lot of stuff you have been unable to back up.
we are shocked and disgusted by the horrors of the german holocaust where six million jewish followers lost their lives. Yet in our own american holocaust, over six times that number of innocent babies have been killed.
amazing, that somebody have so much disregard for the victinms of the nazi holocaust that they find their humanity to be no more than that of a collection of non-sentient cells. How utterly despicable of you.
so basically your arguments consist of telling me im a liar, telling me I have no evidence (which I do, and plenty of it),
well, you haven’t made any actual evidence available, so what am I to believe. You already seem to be in the habit of posting your beliefs as fact, so when you say that you actually have evidence, how am I to know that this doesn’t just mean that you believe that you have evidence? Until you actually provide that evidence, I really can’t confirm that claim of yours.
and teling me that there is no baby, and by doing so you disregard years of profesional study and scientific research and proven facts.
well, you claim so. In science, the developmental stage just before birth is called a “fetus,” not a “baby.” so right there, science actually says exactly the opposite of what you claim. So why should I believe you if you are continuing to lie?

So please redeam yourself and restore your credibility. Please provide the (1) professional study, (2) the scientific research, and (3) the evidence of “proven facts” that you claim are backing up your claims.

Because when you say this, you aren’t lying, are you?
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replied December 2nd, 2004
Extremely eHealthy
xphile_1002 wrote:
izzy wrote:
then how come a woman can die, yet the fetus continue to live even when unviable?

i wouldn't worry to much about trying to make sense of izzy's posts :d
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