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How Can You Apply a Law to Your Own Liking?abortion Murder? (Page 1)

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If killing a fetus is murder than why is not, why is it that even in dictionarys and law books and it is not deemed murder? anyone up for grabs and no religion BS straight facts..

Defintion of murder as defined in law, wikipedia and webster dictionary....

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person (YES HUMAN PERSON READ DEFINITION BELOW)with malice aforethought. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime. Most jurisdictions impose a severe penalty for its commission.

Sometimes the term murder is used by laypersons to describe what is really another form of homicide. Murder is a type of homicide, and relatively few homicides are murders in law. Also, police will often call their investigation into a murder a homicide investigation in order not to prejudice any findings of the investigation, possible charges that could be laid, or any conviction of an offender. However, the crime will normally be identified as a murder once there is sufficient evidence to indicate that a murder is the more likely crime than any other.

Legal Analysis of Murder

To repeat, at common law murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought exists if the defendant acts with any of the following states of mind:

(i) Intent to kill; (ii) Intent to inflict serious bodily harm; (iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (abandoned and malignant heart); or (iv) Intent to commit a felony (felony-murder doctrine).

Under element (i) intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill. An example of a deadly weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or even a car when intentionally used to strike the victim.

Under element (iii) abandoned and malignant heart, the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Under element (iv) felony-murder doctrine, the felony committed must be an inherently dangerous felony, such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying felony cannot be a lesser-included offense such as assault, otherwise all homicides would be murder as all homicides are felonies.
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So if murder is harming, killing a person with intent or premediated what is a person?

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Defintion of person as defined in law, wikipedia and webster dictionary....







The classical definition of a person is "a human being regarded as an individual."[1] In modern usage, the term "person" is subject to dispute and re-interpretation based on alternate definitions. This is especially so for uses that are not necessarily synonymous with the classical definition of human or human being.

For example, in many jurisdictions a corporation may be treated as a "person" under the law. In the fields of philosophy, theology, and bioethics, the definition of 'person' may exclude human beings who are incapable of certain kinds of thought (such as embryos, fetuses with incomplete brain development, or adult humans lacking higher brain functions).[2][3]

These alternative definitions of what constitutes a "person" include a wide and varying range of alternative defining characteristics, some of which have evolved historically, and continue to shift with time and social context. Some other characteristics used to define a 'person' include personal identity,[4] self-awareness, individuality, and a sense of self that persists through time. Other views centre around the degree to which properties such as agency (both human agency and moral agency) and rights are recognized and acknowledged in society or enforcable by law. The recognition of status as a person is known as personhood.
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replied January 5th, 2008
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I think it's this part:

"human being regarded as an individual"

A fetus is not an individual since it is a part of another being. Also, your definition even states that some human forms do not meet the guidelines for personhood. (think the brain dead and z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)

Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet alive on its own
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replied January 5th, 2008
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Wow, look who's back! Welcome back jess!
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replied January 5th, 2008
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hey you~! thanx I missed you guys~!

How are you?
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replied January 5th, 2008
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sillyakchick wrote:
I think it's this part:

"human being regarded as an individual"

A fetus is not an individual since it is a part of another being. Also, your definition even states that some human forms do not meet the guidelines for personhood. (think the brain dead and z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)

Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet alive on its own


I'm pro-choice hun I know that~!
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replied January 5th, 2008
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Where've you been all this time (I'm probably the minority who doesn't know)!? Welcome back, though.
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replied January 5th, 2008
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diamondsz wrote:
sillyakchick wrote:
I think it's this part:

"human being regarded as an individual"

A fetus is not an individual since it is a part of another being. Also, your definition even states that some human forms do not meet the guidelines for personhood. (think the brain dead and z/e/f or a baby born with anencephaly)

Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet alive on its own


I'm pro-choice hun I know that~!


I understand that. I thought you were asking for opinions. I was agreeing with you.
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replied January 5th, 2008
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Kypros Im been dealing with my own problems just got a hang on them and my kids are driving me mad but besides that nothing new, how are you?
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replied January 5th, 2008
Honestly, I think there's a rather blurry line when it comes to deciding what does/doesn't qualify as homicide when it's a fetus. For example, when a woman is pregnant with a wanted baby, and she and the fetus are attacked and killed, the murderer can be charged with two counts of murder. Yet if a woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby and she chooses to have an abortion, it's not considered murder. That really doesn't make a lot of sense!
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replied January 5th, 2008
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sed_grep_awk wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a rather blurry line when it comes to deciding what does/doesn't qualify as homicide when it's a fetus. For example, when a woman is pregnant with a wanted baby, and she and the fetus are attacked and killed, the murderer can be charged with two counts of homicide. Yet if a woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby and she chooses to have an abortion, it's not considered homicide. That really doesn't make a lot of sense!


While I don't agree with a charge of mur.der (I think the charge should be for a crime against the woman), I do understand the rationale. It's like a pet - you can have your pet euthanised for any reason you want, but if someone kills it against your will, it's a crime.
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replied January 5th, 2008
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diamondsz wrote:
Kypros Im been dealing with my own problems just got a hang on them and my kids are driving me mad but besides that nothing new, how are you?


Yeah, I'm doing well Smile I hope your problems get sorted soon and your kids start behaving Cool. Keep up the good work.

Kypros.
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replied January 5th, 2008
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Terrible twos man horrible and got two of them in that stage almost want to cry......btw thanx for the welcome I didnt even know I was missed lol
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replied January 6th, 2008
msrosie wrote:
sed_grep_awk wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a rather blurry line when it comes to deciding what does/doesn't qualify as homicide when it's a fetus. For example, when a woman is pregnant with a wanted baby, and she and the fetus are attacked and killed, the murderer can be charged with two counts of homicide. Yet if a woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby and she chooses to have an abortion, it's not considered homicide. That really doesn't make a lot of sense!


While I don't agree with a charge of homicide (I think the charge should be for a crime against the woman), I do understand the rationale. It's like a pet - you can have your pet euthanised for any reason you want, but if someone kills it against your will, it's a crime.
I *do* agree with a charge of homicide in the case of a wanted baby killed in utero. And, yep, I'm pro-choice! I just see an unborn baby as...well...an unborn baby.
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replied January 6th, 2008
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diamondsz wrote:
Terrible twos man horrible


Oh dear, I have one as well. I completely sympathize!
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replied January 6th, 2008
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sed_grep_awk wrote:
msrosie wrote:
sed_grep_awk wrote:
Honestly, I think there's a rather blurry line when it comes to deciding what does/doesn't qualify as homicide when it's a fetus. For example, when a woman is pregnant with a wanted baby, and she and the fetus are attacked and killed, the murderer can be charged with two counts of homicide. Yet if a woman is pregnant with an unwanted baby and she chooses to have an abortion, it's not considered homicide. That really doesn't make a lot of sense!


While I don't agree with a charge of homicide (I think the charge should be for a crime against the woman), I do understand the rationale. It's like a pet - you can have your pet euthanised for any reason you want, but if someone kills it against your will, it's a crime.
I *do* agree with a charge of homicide in the case of a wanted baby killed in utero. And, yep, I'm pro-choice! I just see an unborn baby as...well...an unborn baby.


I would disagree totally. There should definitely be punishment, but not murdering a foetus. That's proposterous and it is not cohesive wih my pro-choice opinions and views regarding the value of a foetus.
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replied January 6th, 2008
I don't--I mean I DEFINITELY don't!--want to start sounding like an anti-choicer, but the fact of the matter is that a late-term fetus is a human baby that just hasn't come out yet. And I think killing it should be a crime. That's all. My grandchild was just born two days ago, and he had to be delivered a week early due to complications; he came in at over 9 pounds, and he was definitely a baby BEFORE the doctor pulled him out! And I'd like to think that if something had happened to him prior to birth, he would've been granted the same considerations under the law that any other person would.
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replied January 6th, 2008
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sed_grep_awk wrote:
I don't--I mean I DEFINITELY don't!--want to start sounding like an anti-choicer, but the fact of the matter is that a late-term fetus is a human baby that just hasn't come out yet. And I think killing it should be a crime. That's all. My grandchild was just born two days ago, and he had to be delivered a week early due to complications; he came in at over 9 pounds, and he was definitely a baby BEFORE the doctor pulled him out! And I'd like to think that if something had happened to him prior to birth, he would've been granted the same considerations under the law that any other person would.


Me too.. I don't undersatnd why once it is born it's NOT ok to kill it, but before it is.. Doesn't make sense to me..
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replied January 6th, 2008
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sillyakchick wrote:

A fetus is not an individual since it is a part of another being.

"Individual" in that context simply means "one".
Main Entry: individual Function: noun1 a : a particular being or thing as distinguished from a class, species, or collection: as (1) : a single human being as contrasted with a social group or institution (2) : a single organism as distinguished from a group http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book =Dictionary&va=individual&x=0& y=0

sillyakchick wrote:

Also, IMO you can't kill what is not yet alive on its own

You can kill anything that is alive. Independence has no bearing.
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replied January 6th, 2008
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msrosie wrote:
It's like a pet - you can have your pet euthanised for any reason you want, but if someone kills it against your will, it's a crime.

So you believe you "own" your unborn children like you own a pet?
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replied January 6th, 2008
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yodavater wrote:
msrosie wrote:
It's like a pet - you can have your pet euthanised for any reason you want, but if someone kills it against your will, it's a crime.

So you believe you "own" your unborn children like you own a pet?


I know you were not responding to me, but I would answer yes to your question. The unborn is growing inside my body, therefore I own it.
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