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The Pro-Choice Position Destroyed with Logical Analysis (Page 1)

Definitions for the following message:

Human - Any individual, developing member of the Homo sapiens species.

Person - A philosophical title given to humans who possess certain qualities.



It is first essential to establish that the right to abort is fact not a right, but is instead a privilege. We do not have the right to ingest specific drugs, commit suicide, or to prostiture ourselves. We are prohibited from doing these things despite them only directly affecting willing parties. It is therefore the pro-choice advocates responsibility to justify individuals being given a privilege which does directly affect unwilling parties, and why that even if we were given unlimited right to self derermination, why we'd be given the right to kill another human.

The reasons given as justification are illogical, because of them not also being applied to post-birth life persons. Zygotes, embryos, and foetuses are not simply abstract parts of humans, like a sperm, ovum, or skin cell. They are individual, developing humans. If you say that consciousness is required in order to qualify as being a person then you must say an anesthetized patient' "personhood" is removed, or at least diminished. If you say that being sentient is essential to be considered a person then you must admit a blind person is either not entitled to life at all, or that their killing should be punished to a lesser extent than if they were sighted. If privilege to life is removed by inability to sustain existence without outside help, then post-birth people who cannot sustain their own existence also have their privilege removed, or at least diminished.

As to ask why the zygoyes, embryos, or foetuses should have privileges that override the privileges of the Mother is to imply they do have privileges, and calls in to question why the Mother should have privileges that override their zygote, embryo, or foetuse. Please consider this 'thought experiment';

We give kidnappers responsibility for their hostages' lives and deaths because they have made the hostage dependent on them through their own actions. If the hostage dies of starvation then their kidnapper is charged with the crime of murder, because they failed to provide adequate support. Why should this not apply to women who make their offspring dependent on the through their own actions, and do not provide adequate life sustaining support?
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First Helper User Profile nightangel73
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replied November 13th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
I am sorry, but you have destroyed your own argument right from the start. If every human does not have the right to demand any other person donates the use of their bodies, organs and bodily fluids to keep them alive, then neither does any embryo, zygote or fetus. That some women choose to provide this service is voluntary, just as it is voluntary to donate blood, bone marrow or a kidney. Unless you are advocating that anyone in need of that donation should have the right to demand it from the most convenient compatible donor, then your argument with regard to the unwanted occupant of a woman's uterus falls down completely.
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Users who thank oopoop for this post: Darkmoon 

replied November 13th, 2010
Experienced User
Your failure to understand the post does not equate to me destroying my own argument. If you would care to read the post again, you will notice that it poses a question. Why should those women who make their offspring dependant on them through their own actions not be held accountable for their offspring's life in a similar manner to how a kidnapper who makes their hostage dependant on them through their own actions is held accountable for their hostages lives? A human life beng lost simply because you want care free sex? Try again, please.
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replied November 13th, 2010
Active User, very eHealthy
TheExaminer wrote:
Why should those women who make their offspring dependant on them through their own actions not be held accountable for their offspring's life in a similar manner to how a kidnapper who makes their hostage dependant on them through their own actions is held accountable for their hostages lives? A human life beng lost simply because you want care free sex? Try again, please.


For the same reason you can't be legally compelled to donate a single drop of your blood to someone even if you're directly responsible for them needing it. It's pretty simple. Women have the same right as men to refuse the use of their bodies to others for any reason. Change that and you revert to slavery.
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replied November 13th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
TheExaminer wrote:
Why should those women who make their offspring dependant on them through their own actions not be held accountable for their offspring's life in a similar manner to how a kidnapper who makes their hostage dependant on them through their own actions is held accountable for their hostages lives? A human life beng lost simply because you want care free sex? Try again, please.


You are equating a woman who gets pregnant through a normal activity with a criminal?

Try adding in the bloke who got her pregnant somehow, and maybe you will make some sense...
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replied November 13th, 2010
Experienced User
I asked you a question, which you are failing to answer. Also, men have no legal rights, and so cannot be expected to take any legal responsibility. You appear to have no logical contentions to what I have said, time to let someone else try.
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replied November 13th, 2010
Experienced User
Darkmoon wrote:
TheExaminer wrote:
Why should those women who make their offspring dependant on them through their own actions not be held accountable for their offspring's life in a similar manner to how a kidnapper who makes their hostage dependant on them through their own actions is held accountable for their hostages lives? A human life beng lost simply because you want care free sex? Try again, please.


For the same reason you can't be legally compelled to donate a single drop of your blood to someone even if you're directly responsible for them needing it. It's pretty simple. Women have the same right as men to refuse the use of their bodies to others for any reason. Change that and you revert to slavery.


You are not answering the question. Why should the women not be held responsible for the pre-birth life's death in a similar way to how the person who is the cause of another needing a blood transplant would be held respnonsible for death if they did not provide blood when they were the only person cabable of doing so? Also, men do not have the right to refuse to support a child that they created, and so in your opinion men are slaves?
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replied November 14th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
All this arguments are BS.

What is abortion? The process of ending the life of your baby or fetus if you want to call like that, the term doesn't really matter. For those who do it they believe they have legitimate reasons that this is the best thing for them and for the baby and that it is not what they would have wanted to do. The women who do it should therefore be devastated after their abortion because loosing a baby at any stage is devastating. And it doesn't matter whether the baby is 8 weeks or full term it is devastating at any stage. So if some women come here and say they aborted and didn't got affected it is one of the two things; either they are hiding their true feelings or they are down right cold blooded.

When you have an abortion when you are aware you are loosing your baby's life or when you loose it like I did it is not a process that you can delete like a computer file and live life like nothing happened. It is there for the remaining of your life. Each and every single day you will wonder about that life. It is how it is.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Active User, very eHealthy
TheExaminer wrote:

You are not answering the question. Why should the women not be held responsible for the pre-birth life's death in a similar way to how the person who is the cause of another needing a blood transplant would be held respnonsible for death if they did not provide blood when they were the only person cabable of doing so? Also, men do not have the right to refuse to support a child that they created, and so in your opinion men are slaves?


I did answer the question.

The unborn are totally and completely dependent upon the bodily resources of a single individual--often to her detriment. She has the ultimate right to decide whether the parasitic relationship of the fetus to her body is worth seeing through to term. It takes and gives nothing back, sometimes depleting nutrients to the point where women suffer deficiencies and fractured bones. If something is eating me alive from the inside out and kicking my ribs hard enough to fracture them, you'd better bloody believe I've got a right to evict the aggressor.

Your stance is that women simply don't matter. We're just vessels. My stance is that we and we alone choose who or what uses our bodies when and how we wish. If we aren't willing to share our bodies, tough luck.

The unborn have the same right as the born, when it comes to occupying a woman's uterus against her will. None.

Live with it.

Are you suggesting that the average woman should have fewer rights to bodily autonomy than convicted criminals?

I think of the two of us, you are the one having issues with honesty.
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Users who thank Darkmoon for this post: motherofhighspiritedones 

replied November 14th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
nightangel73 wrote:
All this arguments are BS.

What is abortion? The process of ending the life of your baby or fetus if you want to call like that, the term doesn't really matter. For those who do it they believe they have legitimate reasons that this is the best thing for them and for the baby and that it is not what they would have wanted to do. The women who do it should therefore be devastated after their abortion because loosing a baby at any stage is devastating. And it doesn't matter whether the baby is 8 weeks or full term it is devastating at any stage. So if some women come here and say they aborted and didn't got affected it is one of the two things; either they are hiding their true feelings or they are down right cold blooded.

When you have an abortion when you are aware you are loosing your baby's life or when you loose it like I did it is not a process that you can delete like a computer file and live life like nothing happened. It is there for the remaining of your life. Each and every single day you will wonder about that life. It is how it is.


So feelings about things are the "normal" ones, and anyone who doesn't feel that way is lying or just unfeeling? It must be nice being such a paragon of perfection and right about all things. Your life must be so worthwhile, knowing that how you think is always the correct way, and it must be so simple knowing that anyone who doesn't think and feel exactly like you is a lying, cold-blooded sociopath.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
oopoopoop wrote:

So feelings about things are the "normal" ones, and anyone who doesn't feel that way is lying or just unfeeling?


Yup. Loosing a child at any stage or age is universally the worst pain in the world. So if you come and tell me someone had an abortion and flushed their baby down the toilet and felt nothing about it or actually be happy about it..sound like someone unfeeling to me yes, beyond shadow of doubt.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
nightangel73 wrote:
oopoopoop wrote:

So feelings about things are the "normal" ones, and anyone who doesn't feel that way is lying or just unfeeling?


Yup. Loosing a child at any stage or age is universally the worst pain in the world. So if you come and tell me someone had an abortion and flushed their baby down the toilet and felt nothing about it or actually be happy about it..sound like someone unfeeling to me yes, beyond shadow of doubt.


But getting rid of an unwanted parasite would definitely engender feelings of relief and satisfaction. Not unfeeling at all. And your arrogance at your own supposed superiority is truly breathtaking. People that are so confidence that their way is the right way are dangerous.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Experienced User
Darkmoon wrote:
TheExaminer wrote:

You are not answering the question. Why should the women not be held responsible for the pre-birth life's death in a similar way to how the person who is the cause of another needing a blood transplant would be held respnonsible for death if they did not provide blood when they were the only person cabable of doing so? Also, men do not have the right to refuse to support a child that they created, and so in your opinion men are slaves?


I did answer the question.

The unborn are totally and completely dependent upon the bodily resources of a single individual--often to her detriment. She has the ultimate right to decide whether the parasitic relationship of the fetus to her body is worth seeing through to term. It takes and gives nothing back, sometimes depleting nutrients to the point where women suffer deficiencies and fractured bones. If something is eating me alive from the inside out and kicking my ribs hard enough to fracture them, you'd better bloody believe I've got a right to evict the aggressor.

Your stance is that women simply don't matter. We're just vessels. My stance is that we and we alone choose who or what uses our bodies when and how we wish. If we aren't willing to share our bodies, tough luck.

The unborn have the same right as the born, when it comes to occupying a woman's uterus against her will. None.

Live with it.

Are you suggesting that the average woman should have fewer rights to bodily autonomy than convicted criminals?

I think of the two of us, you are the one having issues with honesty.


I'm sorry but I've already explained how it is not a right, how it is a legal privilege, and how it is not one you are able to justify having when the pregnancy is a result of your own actions. You have body autonomy, you have the option to refuse sex if you understand that any pregnancy resulting from it will result in you killing your offspring. You should not need to have control over an other's life to have control over your own, abortions are for women who have lost control of their body and need to take control of an other's in order to gain it back. You still have not justified having the option to abort under these circumstances.

I am no longer interested in discussing this issue with you, as you have shown that when you are unable to debate the actual points raised, you will create straw man arguments and attempt to defeat them instead. Also simply ignoring those points which you cannot even straw man, such as your comparison to women not being able to opt out of supporting a child being like slavery also meaning that men are currently slaves due to their inability to opt of of supporting a life he has created.

Your use of the word 'parasite' is not only out of context, but is a term you are using to distance yourself from the true nature of abortion, same with the word aggressor. In my opinion you are most likely a post-abortive women who cannot change her opinion for the sake of self preservation. You probably understand on a biological level that it is unacceptable to kill your own offspring, coming here not to educate yourself, but to reinforce your opinion.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Experienced User
oopoopoop wrote:
nightangel73 wrote:
All this arguments are BS.

What is abortion? The process of ending the life of your baby or fetus if you want to call like that, the term doesn't really matter. For those who do it they believe they have legitimate reasons that this is the best thing for them and for the baby and that it is not what they would have wanted to do. The women who do it should therefore be devastated after their abortion because loosing a baby at any stage is devastating. And it doesn't matter whether the baby is 8 weeks or full term it is devastating at any stage. So if some women come here and say they aborted and didn't got affected it is one of the two things; either they are hiding their true feelings or they are down right cold blooded.

When you have an abortion when you are aware you are loosing your baby's life or when you loose it like I did it is not a process that you can delete like a computer file and live life like nothing happened. It is there for the remaining of your life. Each and every single day you will wonder about that life. It is how it is.


So feelings about things are the "normal" ones, and anyone who doesn't feel that way is lying or just unfeeling? It must be nice being such a paragon of perfection and right about all things. Your life must be so worthwhile, knowing that how you think is always the correct way, and it must be so simple knowing that anyone who doesn't think and feel exactly like you is a lying, cold-blooded sociopath.



I believe that what was said was that any women who claim not to have negative feelings about killing their own offspring, or losing an offsping in general are either liars, or psychopaths who are unable to experience emotions in the way that the rest of us can. Could you please debate the actual points, or simply leave the thread. This is a thread which is to exist for the purpose of open minded education, not for the purpose of straw manning all opposition in an attempt to reinforce your own opinion. Thank you.
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replied November 14th, 2010
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TheExaminer wrote:
Why should the women not be held responsible for the pre-birth life's death in a similar way to how the person who is the cause of another needing a blood transplant would be held respnonsible for death if they did not provide blood when they were the only person cabable of doing so?
No one would be held responsible for NOT providing blood to someone, JUST BECAUSE they are the only person capable of doing so. And many persons in NEED of blood have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE to REFUSE blood products.
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replied November 14th, 2010
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TheExaminer wrote:


I believe that what was said was that any women who claim not to have negative feelings about killing their own offspring, or losing an offsping in general are either liars, or psychopaths who are unable to experience emotions in the way that the rest of us can.
Really? REALLY?!! Did you know that for every time you successfully conceive, you LOSE up to six (or more) fertilized eggs? Are we women now supposed to mourn every tampon JUST IN CASE there is a "lost pregnancy"? As humans, we have an ARRAY of emotions...what may be appalling to you may be relieving to others. I know that I was more relieved than grief-stricken when I had an abortion to remove my ectopic pregnancy. Lest my two BORN children be left without a mother.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Experienced User
motherofhighspiritedones wrote:
TheExaminer wrote:
Why should the women not be held responsible for the pre-birth life's death in a similar way to how the person who is the cause of another needing a blood transplant would be held respnonsible for death if they did not provide blood when they were the only person cabable of doing so?
No one would be held responsible for NOT providing blood to someone, JUST BECAUSE they are the only person capable of doing so. And many persons in NEED of blood have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE to REFUSE blood products.


The person who is directly responsible for an other needing blood would be held resonsible for the person's death if they did not provide it when they were the only person cabable of doing so. I have already dealt with this in this thread, please read the debate before tryng to become a part of it, thank you.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Experienced User
motherofhighspiritedones wrote:
TheExaminer wrote:


I believe that what was said was that any women who claim not to have negative feelings about killing their own offspring, or losing an offsping in general are either liars, or psychopaths who are unable to experience emotions in the way that the rest of us can.
Really? REALLY?!! Did you know that for every time you successfully conceive, you LOSE up to six (or more) fertilized eggs? Are we women now supposed to mourn every tampon JUST IN CASE there is a "lost pregnancy"? As humans, we have an ARRAY of emotions...what may be appalling to you may be relieving to others. I know that I was more relieved than grief-stricken when I had an abortion to remove my ectopic pregnancy. Lest my two BORN children be left without a mother.


I have already dealt with the differences between components of human life, and human life. Again, please read the debate before trying to become a part of it, thank you.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Extremely eHealthy
TheExaminer wrote:
I believe that what was said was that any women who claim not to have negative feelings about killing their own offspring, or losing an offsping in general are either liars, or psychopaths who are unable to experience emotions in the way that the rest of us can. Could you please debate the actual points, or simply leave the thread. This is a thread which is to exist for the purpose of open minded education, not for the purpose of straw manning all opposition in an attempt to reinforce your own opinion. Thank you.



The actual points being.....? That anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is a psychopath? How about my view that anyone who would force a woman to gestate agaisnt her will is an evil android bent on world domination? Just as valid a viewpoint.
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replied November 14th, 2010
Experienced User
oopoopoop wrote:
TheExaminer wrote:
I believe that what was said was that any women who claim not to have negative feelings about killing their own offspring, or losing an offsping in general are either liars, or psychopaths who are unable to experience emotions in the way that the rest of us can. Could you please debate the actual points, or simply leave the thread. This is a thread which is to exist for the purpose of open minded education, not for the purpose of straw manning all opposition in an attempt to reinforce your own opinion. Thank you.



The actual points being.....? That anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view is a psychopath? How about my view that anyone who would force a woman to gestate agaisnt her will is an evil android bent on world domination? Just as valid a viewpoint.

I'm sorry, but the point is very obvious. Those who say they do not have negative feelings regarding the lose of a child are either lying, or have a mental deficiency negating their ability to feel emotion.
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