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Just why are fetuses so important to you? (Page 1)

Opinion on abortion can be described as a continuum, from absolutely opposed under any circumstances whatever, to absolutely the woman's choice right up until it pops out, for whatever reason she likes. In between there's those who'd make an exception for some reason. Does this look about right?:

NO abortion for any reason
-woman's life in danger
-severe abnormality incompatible with life
-woman's health in danger
-rape
-incest
-deformity or serious disability
-woman's mental health
-etc.
-any reason in first trimester
-etc.
-any reason up to viability
-etc.
-any reason up until delivery

However, around 90% of abortions do occur in the first trimester, so these are the ones I'd like to focus on. I simply don't understand why it is such a big deal to some people that they stop women from having an abortion at that stage -- why it is worth their energy to try to stop women they don't know, and will never meet, from terminating an unwanted pregnancy, when the fetus is no more than 1.5 inches long.

There are already billions of humans on the planet, a large percentage of whom don't have enough to eat, clean water, or decent homes. What is it that makes it worth expending energy and effort on something unwanted that barely exists, instead of on improving the lives of people out there who are dying of starvation and disease?

I am not being sarcastic. I really am trying to understand how people think.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
oopoopoop wrote:
I simply don't understand why it is such a big deal to some people that they stop women from having an abortion at that stage -- why it is worth their energy to try to stop women they don't know, and will never meet, from terminating an unwanted pregnancy

I believe the term you're looking for is 'busybody' Wink

Quote:
when the fetus is no more than 1.5 inches long.

Actually the ZEF could be no larger than the period at the end of this sentence. It wouldn't matter to them. To them the woman is invisible, and that wad of cells the size of the period, it (according to them) should have more rights then an actual person with a real history and quite possibly is needed to support other children.

Quote:
I really am trying to understand how people think.

Good luck with that one Laughing
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
oopoopoop wrote:
Opinion on abortion can be described as a continuum, from absolutely opposed under any circumstances whatever, to absolutely the woman's choice right up until it pops out, for whatever reason she likes. In between there's those who'd make an exception for some reason. Does this look about right?:

NO abortion for any reason
-woman's life in danger
-severe abnormality incompatible with life
-woman's health in danger
-rape
-incest
-deformity or serious disability
-woman's mental health
-etc.
-any reason in first trimester
-etc.
-any reason up to viability
-etc.
-any reason up until delivery

However, around 90% of abortions do occur in the first trimester, so these are the ones I'd like to focus on. I simply don't understand why it is such a big deal to some people that they stop women from having an abortion at that stage -- why it is worth their energy to try to stop women they don't know, and will never meet, from terminating an unwanted pregnancy, when the fetus is no more than 1.5 inches long.

There are already billions of humans on the planet, a large percentage of whom don't have enough to eat, clean water, or decent homes. What is it that makes it worth expending energy and effort on something unwanted that barely exists, instead of on improving the lives of people out there who are dying of starvation and disease?

I am not being sarcastic. I really am trying to understand how people think.


If you go by the size and age of the human, then does that mean that people should care more for adults than babies? Is it wrong to care about newborns more than completely developed and bigger adults?

And still, what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?

Why hasn't anyone proven that only pro-choicers help the born in any way?
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
If you go by the size and age of the human

Size has nothing to do with it. Using the correct terminology would be nice though, as it is only a POTENTIAL human being, and only if the pregnant woman wishes to proceed with said pregnancy.

Quote:
what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?

When was the last time you adopted a child?
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:

If you go by the size and age of the human, then does that mean that people should care more for adults than babies? Is it wrong to care about newborns more than completely developed and bigger adults?

And still, what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?

Why hasn't anyone proven that only pro-choicers help the born in any way?


Oh, I don't do anything for the born either! But that just makes me consistent Razz .

You haven't directly answered the question, but what it seems you are saying is that as soon as something is conceived, it is equally important to you as any human being of any age? The question then is, why? Why are the content of some woman's uterus (a woman you have never met and never will meet) so important to you? What is it about the fetus that justifies you interfering in someone else's life and decisions?
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
Milan wrote:
NeutralUsername wrote:
If you go by the size and age of the human

Size has nothing to do with it. Using the correct terminology would be nice though, as it is only a POTENTIAL human being, and only if the pregnant woman wishes to proceed with said pregnancy.

Quote:
what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?

When was the last time you adopted a child?


I haven't adopted a child. But, I'm assuming you have because you're a pro-choicer and only pro-choicers adopt. Right?
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
Milan wrote:
NeutralUsername wrote:
If you go by the size and age of the human

Size has nothing to do with it. Using the correct terminology would be nice though, as it is only a POTENTIAL human being, and only if the pregnant woman wishes to proceed with said pregnancy.

Quote:
what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?

When was the last time you adopted a child?


I haven't adopted a child. But, I'm assuming you have because you're a pro-choicer and only pro-choicers adopt. Right?


Complete non-sequiteur. Totally absence of logic.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
Milan wrote:

When was the last time you adopted a child?


I haven't adopted a child.

That would make you hypocritical wouldn't it NeutralUsername? You're whining about saving all of these 'lives' but once they are walking around you ignore them. If you TRULY cared about 'life' - then you would value ALL life with no exceptions.

Quote:
I'm assuming you have because you're a pro-choicer and only pro-choicers adopt. Right?

Is that the best that you can do, is just post an example of Straw Man? LOL giggle
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
Milan wrote:
NeutralUsername wrote:
Milan wrote:

When was the last time you adopted a child?


I haven't adopted a child.

That would make you hypocritical wouldn't it NeutralUsername? You're whining about saving all of these 'lives' but once they are walking around you ignore them. If you TRULY cared about 'life' - then you would value ALL life with no exceptions.

Quote:
I'm assuming you have because you're a pro-choicer and only pro-choicers adopt. Right?

Is that the best that you can do, is just post an example of Straw Man? LOL giggle


So, what' the point here? I asked that someone PROVE to me that only pro-choicers care about the born. You asked if I adopted, trying to prove that pro-lifers don't care about the born.

If only pro-choicers adopt or do anything for the born, then you need to prove it! If it's not true, then what is your point? I guess that NO ONE cares about the born then!
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replied October 14th, 2008
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I guess just simply being pro-choice is all that matters. That some how exempts you from having to actually HELP the born in any way.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
I asked that someone PROVE to me that only pro-choicers care about the born.

You seem to be hung up on labels. Someone who is Pro-Choice may, or may not care about the born. That is an INDIVIDUAL issue, but at least they are not hypocrites about it. If you think that they are, then state your case.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
Milan wrote:
NeutralUsername wrote:
I asked that someone PROVE to me that only pro-choicers care about the born.

You seem to be hung up on labels. Someone who is Pro-Choice may, or may not care about the born. That is an INDIVIDUAL issue, but at least they are not hypocrites about it. If you think that they are, then state your case.


Why can't a pro-lifer be against the killing of unborn humans? Why do they have to adopt a million kids to prevent others from thinking they are hypocrites? They think this killing is wrong. This is like giving a person a hard time about only volunteering to help children when they could also help adults.

A pro-choicer who couldn't care less about helping people is a hypocrite. Why do they care about abortion so much? Do they even care about women? What is their motive for supporting abortion? Is it because they hate children? Is it because pregnancy grosses them out? Is it because they hate PEOPLE in general? Is it because they just want the human population to go down? I guess as long as you are pro-choice it doesn't matter what that reasoning is. Why doesn't it matter?

How can a person who doesn't care about anyone even be called PRO-CHOICE. It would definitely be hypocritical.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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And besides, if these pro-choicers really believe that pro-lifers don't care about the born or even adopt, then why aren't THEY doing something about it? Simply being pro-choice doesn't make all the kids in foster care go away.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Being pro-choice is all about me. I wouldn't want anyone to force me to remain pregnant against my will, in the unlikely event this would occur. But this also makes it my business to ensure that no other woman is forced to remain pregnant against her will. I can only protect myself by protecting others' rights at the same time.

Please explain how anyone else' choice to have an abortion is your business.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
[
If you go by the size and age of the human, then does that mean that people should care more for adults than babies? Is it wrong to care about newborns more than completely developed and bigger adults?

And still, what makes you think that pro-lifers only care about the unborn?


Question, what is more important, Quality of life or quantity?

I believe in another debate we had, a potential had more matter over a child, so this whole adult over child thing has already beem decided, you say that a child has more value over an adult.

Difference between a newborn and a z/e/f A very big one! Since I went through the newborn stage twice, lets not go there.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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NeutralUsername wrote:
And besides, if these pro-choicers really believe that pro-lifers don't care about the born or even adopt, then why aren't THEY doing something about it? Simply being pro-choice doesn't make all the kids in foster care go away.


Really?

Being pro-choice opens doors to people who are in the those scenarios we have never heard of, while you live in a box we are open-minded and empathetic.
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Who you votin' for in November, NUN?
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replied October 14th, 2008
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Re: Just why are fetuses so important to you?
NeutralUsername wrote:
Why can't a pro-lifer be against the killing of unborn humans? They think this killing is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with anti-choicers thinking that killing is wrong. It IS wrong when it involves a real human being. Anti-choicers make their mistake when they become busybodies and try to force others to do things against their free will. Do you tell your neighbors what kind of car to drive? Do you tell co-workers which religion to use? Do you tell your friends what kind of food to eat? Of course not. Then why tell a complete stranger that lives on the other side of the world, someone which you have no details about their life and/or what their struggles in life are, someone that you've never walked a day in their shoes - what to do - just because you don't like a decision that they've made? Rolling Eyes IMO anti-choicers are beyond rude, they're even beyond arrogant, and when you really get down to it since this great country was after all founded on the cornerstone of freedom of choice acting like a anti-choicer and trying to take away another persons freedom of choice is downright UNAmerican. Look at it this way, if terrorist were to come into this country and demanded that Americans gave up there freedom of choice or they would start killing people, whether you're anti-choice or Pro-Choice, would you allow those terrorist to get away with their threats, or would you fight for your right to have freedom of choice? I don't know one American that wouldn't be up in arms and fight for what this great country was founded on. Well that, in a nutshell, is what being Pro-Choice is all about. It's really not so much about abortion as you might think. It's about everyone being able to have the SAME rights. It's about having no double standards. It's about women being treated with respect, just like men expect to be.

So tell me how could anyone in their right mind say out of one side of their mouth that they're patriotic and want to preserve this countries Constitution and all of the other great things that this country was founded on - and then out of the other side of their mouth say that they believe that the slave owners had the right idea - that certain people should have more rights than others. Men, do not have more rights then women. Non-pregnant women, do not have more rights then pregnant women. When anti-choicers pay lip service to the Constitution that is all well and fine, but at the end of the day actions still speak louder than words, and you have to ask yourself what have you personally done to preserve this countries freedom of choice. So if you happen to feel that killing is wrong then that is fine, just as long as you don't cross the line and let those feelings interfere with someone else's life, because that is a form of killing too.
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replied October 15th, 2008
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I really, truly think that the reason so many people are hung up on abortion is because when they think of abortion, they don't think of an 8 week old embryo. They think of a giggling, laughing infant (like in the "quote that ends this debate" thread) or of a sleeping newborn swaddled in a blanket, pink and soft and snuggly. They don't think of something that, if memory serves me correctly, cannot be distinguished between a pig embryo. It would explain why so many protesting signs have pictures of infants on them.
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replied October 15th, 2008
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AyaMiyaki wrote:
I really, truly think that the reason so many people are hung up on abortion is because when they think of abortion, they don't think of an 8 week old embryo. They think of a giggling, laughing infant (like in the "quote that ends this debate" thread) or of a sleeping newborn swaddled in a blanket, pink and soft and snuggly. They don't think of something that, if memory serves me correctly, cannot be distinguished between a pig embryo. It would explain why so many protesting signs have pictures of infants on them.


I know exactly what a zygote, embryo and fetus look like. These are the type of humans I think of when I think of abortion. I don't think of neonates or infants because they're not the ones being killed.

I probably know why protesters use pictures of older babies. Saying things like"...Cannot be distinguished between a pig embryo" is one reason. Pro-choicers are way too focused on what they look like. They know that some pro-choicers tend to see them as non-human creatures or alien looking beings and get disgusted. We ALL looked like that in the womb. It didn't make us less human.
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