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It IS a baby plain and simple. (Page 10)


June 15th, 2008
Experienced User
If there was any other creature in a person, and the person wanted it removed, it would be, no questions asked. That creature does not belong to the mother, but it is using her. That is the big problem most pro-choicers have with it in the first place. Obviously, once it's no longer using her, she has no right to kill it. But as we've said many times before, many women would gladly rather have the zef removed and not killed and it's sad that it must be killed in order to remove it.
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replied June 16th, 2008
Reptar wrote:
If there was any other creature in a person, and the person wanted it removed, it would be, no questions asked. That creature does not belong to the mother, but it is using her. That is the big problem most pro-choicers have with it in the first place. Obviously, once it's no longer using her, she has no right to kill it. But as we've said many times before, many women would gladly rather have the zef removed and not killed and it's sad that it must be killed in order to remove it.


Nah, most pro choicers are only concerned about them, not the baby. They are not concerned with some sort of "parasite", they are concerned with their life.

It's like being mad at the AIDS virus, like they did NOTHING to aquire it. It's about personal responsibillity.
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:
Reptar wrote:
If there was any other creature in a person, and the person wanted it removed, it would be, no questions asked. That creature does not belong to the mother, but it is using her. That is the big problem most pro-choicers have with it in the first place. Obviously, once it's no longer using her, she has no right to kill it. But as we've said many times before, many women would gladly rather have the zef removed and not killed and it's sad that it must be killed in order to remove it.


Nah, most pro choicers are only concerned about them, not the baby. They are not concerned with some sort of "parasite", they are concerned with their life.

It's like being mad at the AIDS virus, like they did NOTHING to aquire it. It's about personal responsibillity.


and most pro-lifers ONLY care about the zef, NOT the mother.
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replied June 16th, 2008
Lilly Ivy wrote:
leftistdestroyer wrote:
Reptar wrote:
If there was any other creature in a person, and the person wanted it removed, it would be, no questions asked. That creature does not belong to the mother, but it is using her. That is the big problem most pro-choicers have with it in the first place. Obviously, once it's no longer using her, she has no right to kill it. But as we've said many times before, many women would gladly rather have the zef removed and not killed and it's sad that it must be killed in order to remove it.


Nah, most pro choicers are only concerned about them, not the baby. They are not concerned with some sort of "parasite", they are concerned with their life.

It's like being mad at the AIDS virus, like they did NOTHING to aquire it. It's about personal responsibillity.


and most pro-lifers ONLY care about the zef, NOT the mother.


Well, yeah. That's why we are called pro LIFER. Life is more important than the quality of it. The mother has an option beforehand, the life insider her, does not. It's actually un American as well.
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replied June 16th, 2008
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so you chose the life of something that can't breathe, can't think, can't do anything but draw from the mother? If something can't live without a host, how is that life? The mother is a LIFE too, why don't you care about her?
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:
Lilly Ivy wrote:
leftistdestroyer wrote:
Reptar wrote:
If there was any other creature in a person, and the person wanted it removed, it would be, no questions asked. That creature does not belong to the mother, but it is using her. That is the big problem most pro-choicers have with it in the first place. Obviously, once it's no longer using her, she has no right to kill it. But as we've said many times before, many women would gladly rather have the zef removed and not killed and it's sad that it must be killed in order to remove it.


Nah, most pro choicers are only concerned about them, not the baby. They are not concerned with some sort of "parasite", they are concerned with their life.

It's like being mad at the AIDS virus, like they did NOTHING to aquire it. It's about personal responsibillity.


and most pro-lifers ONLY care about the zef, NOT the mother.


Well, yeah. That's why we are called pro LIFER. Life is more important than the quality of it. The mother has an option beforehand, the life insider her, does not. It's actually un American as well.


Actually when it is born it is American!!!
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replied June 16th, 2008
Lilly Ivy wrote:
so you chose the life of something that can't breathe, can't think, can't do anything but draw from the mother? If something can't live without a host, how is that life? The mother is a LIFE too, why don't you care about her?


See I am not picking which to be allowed to live or die. I am not picking the quality of life over life. The mother is a life too, yes, but I am not saying, pick one or the other to be allowed to live.

Life:

"the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally."
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replied June 16th, 2008
[quote="diamondsz"

Actually when it is born it is American!!![/quote]


No, abortion is un American. Picking the quality of life over life is un American.
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:


And, throughout history, when has the quality of life been the sole determining factor? No other animal on the planet does what we do.



Sure they do. The first example that comes to mind is a female kangaroo casting her offspring out of her pouch before the little joey is viable. They will often do that when food or water is in short supply.
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:
[quote="diamondsz"

Actually when it is born it is American!!!



No, abortion is un American. Picking the quality of life over life is un American.[/quote]

where did you get that from.


Abortion is in agreements with almost all the charter of rights as well legal standpoint as well, abortion also corresponds with certain political parties and philosophy.

I guess your just un american, with change comes evolution hunny, evolve your way of thinking, you dont have to have an abortion but you have no right to tell someone they can't!! Thats the law don't like it then fight it positively instead of threatening me or anyone else, a THREAT IS A LEGAL crime, you can have your Ip pulled and charged.
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Users who thank diamondsz for this post: aochriss 

replied June 16th, 2008
Experienced User
Haha, what does it being American/unAmerican have to do with anything? I'm not even American to begin with, and I'm rather proud to be Canadian instead.
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replied June 16th, 2008
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Reptar wrote:
Haha, what does it being American/unAmerican have to do with anything? I'm not even American to begin with, and I'm rather proud to be Canadian instead.


So am I

Wheres the beer eh!
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:
Lilly Ivy wrote:
so you chose the life of something that can't breathe, can't think, can't do anything but draw from the mother? If something can't live without a host, how is that life? The mother is a LIFE too, why don't you care about her?


See I am not picking which to be allowed to live or die. I am not picking the quality of life over life. The mother is a life too, yes, but I am not saying, pick one or the other to be allowed to live.

Life:

"the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally."



A zef isn't an organism.




"But no other species I know of is considered an individual organism at the zygote stage, which makes me wonder why Homo sapiens should be considered any different from them. We differ from other species only in degree, and not in kind."
Dr. Dana Krempels
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replied June 16th, 2008
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leftistdestroyer wrote:
It's like being mad at the AIDS virus, like they did NOTHING to aquire it. It's about personal responsibillity.


There are some people who acquired the AIDS virus through birth (through no fault of their own) and others who were unfortunate to acquire it through a blood transfusion (back when screening was done for blood donations, this is also how some people acquired hepatitis).

Some women did not ask to be raped and become consequently pregnant, nor do I believe some women became pregnant due to lack of personal responsibility when they used birth control, condoms, or other methods of prevention.
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Users who thank amino65 for this post: diamondsz 

replied June 17th, 2008
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aochriss wrote:
leftistdestroyer wrote:
Lilly Ivy wrote:
so you chose the life of something that can't breathe, can't think, can't do anything but draw from the mother? If something can't live without a host, how is that life? The mother is a LIFE too, why don't you care about her?


See I am not picking which to be allowed to live or die. I am not picking the quality of life over life. The mother is a life too, yes, but I am not saying, pick one or the other to be allowed to live.

Life:

"the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally."



A zef isn't an organism.




"But no other species I know of is considered an individual organism at the zygote stage, which makes me wonder why Homo sapiens should be considered any different from them. We differ from other species only in degree, and not in kind."
Dr. Dana Krempels


Doesn't zef stand for zygote, embryo and fetus? The quote you keep repeating over and over does not mention embryos and fetuses. It also says "individual organism" not just organism.

You need to prove that the unborn are not organisms. You haven't. It's pretty strange that an unborn offspring that needs oxygen and nutrients and grows and develops wouldn't be classified as an organism by you.

If the fetus is not an organism and not a human, then what in the world is it?
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replied June 17th, 2008
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A zef becomes being capable of being an organism at viability, and an actual organism at birth.

While it is in utero is becoming, growing into an organism. It is part of the woman's organism/ body.
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replied June 17th, 2008
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I keep chickens, including a cockerel. The eggs I eat have been fertilised. But they don't actually start developing, i.e. get to the zygote stage, until they are incubated at chicken temperature, either under a broody hen or in the incubator for some hours. I usually bung them in the refrigerator for a couple of hours, which stops any possibility that they will start to develop. Most hens, incidentally, have no interest whatever in sitting on their eggs, fertilised or not.

Some of the eggs we decide to hatch out, which takes 21 days or so. If you crack one open after two weeks, there is a chicken embryo inside. I really don't think you could call it an organism -- once the shell is broken, it dies. It cannot survive outside its womb, i.e. shell.

I think being "born" is a prerequisite for qualifying as an organism.
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Users who thank oopoop for this post: Lilly Ivy  aochriss 

replied June 17th, 2008
Experienced User
leftistdestroyer wrote:

No, abortion is un American. Picking the quality of life over life is un American.


Not really. Our country's history is full of stories of individuals and families going into dangerous situations in order to have a better life.

The guy who threw all his stuff in a wagon and headed west, in spite of the fact that he might be killed by outlaws or indians or just some cheesed off neighbor, and in spite of the fact that his access to supplies and doctors and whatever else he might need would be severely limited, is not a myth.

Sure, they wanted to remain alive. But they were quite willing to risk ending up not alive in order to improve their quality of life.
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replied June 17th, 2008
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Snug wrote:
leftistdestroyer wrote:

No, abortion is un American. Picking the quality of life over life is un American.


Not really. Our country's history is full of stories of individuals and families going into dangerous situations in order to have a better life.

The guy who threw all his stuff in a wagon and headed west, in spite of the fact that he might be killed by outlaws or indians or just some cheesed off neighbor, and in spite of the fact that his access to supplies and doctors and whatever else he might need would be severely limited, is not a myth.

Sure, they wanted to remain alive. But they were quite willing to risk ending up not alive in order to improve their quality of life.


Very well said sacrifice to improve our quality of life!!!!! WICKED POINT , it wont let me thank you so THANKS!!!!!
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replied June 17th, 2008
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Reptar wrote:
Haha, what does it being American/unAmerican have to do with anything? I'm not even American to begin with, and I'm rather proud to be Canadian instead.


It's that whole "patriot" propaganda mindset. War apparently is "American" because if you are against the war, conservatives label you as "unAmerican". Heard it countless times in the media.

Crazy loons.

And the slaughter of millions of Native Americans. That's apparently "patriotic" and "American" as well. Do you know how many people either don't know about this or consider it irrelevant?
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