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Ethics of Intimate examinations by men

Why do women copy others and use male doctors for intimate Examinations?

SOME Female's that read Love Never Dies post, are being defensive because they have undergone this procedure and cant cope with criticism from men, many men have strong beliefs and moral standards.

There's a lot of men/women out there feeling exactly the same, women you should get there act together, unless you are in a relationship with a bloke that doesn't give jack!
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replied November 27th, 2010
Community Volunteer
You have a real problem with this "intimate Examination" bit...Hey, let it rest...We are all confident women and choose as well as do, what we want....That's just how it is...
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replied October 7th, 2012
On the Importance of a Respectful debate in this Forum
Dear CarolineEF and Pailrider, both your posts are very judgemental.

ehealthforum is a place where it is possible to discuss about health related issues, including women medicine and Gynaecology and their related Psychological aspects on lay Women, lay Men, medical students and Qualified Drs.

Both of you have the right to have your opinion about the issue and of deciding what you want with reference to your health care.

However, this does not entitle any of you to slag other participants to the forum's discussion simply because they have different ideas.
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replied October 7th, 2012
Medical Studies from a Female and a Male Gynaecologists
Dear CarolineEF, I believe your post is very biased by your personal beliefs which are not pinned down by any relevant medical study and which are demonstrated to be incorrect in publications from both Female and Male Gynaecologists.
For this reason I would like to post you two extracts from two publications:

1)Public Privates: Performing gynecology from both ends of the speculum (Duke University Press, 1997. ISBN: 0-8223-1921-7) by Dr Terri Kapsalis, Female Gynaecologist and Medical School Teacher

2) The Psychology of Gynecology, New Perspectives in Gynecology, JBM, vol. 53, n. 2, August 1987, by Dr. Nelson Soucasaux, Male Gynaecologist.

The first study by Dr Terri Kapsalis refers to a statistical study by Buchwald on the perception of female genital display and manipulation by Male medical students the author reports the following:
"Students seem to find it very difficult to consider female genital display and manipulation in the medical context as entirely separate from sexual acts and their accompanying fears. Buchwald's lists of fears makes explicit the perceived connection between a pelvic examination and a sexual act. "A fear of the inability to recognize pathology" also reflects a fear of contracting a sexually transmitted disease, an actual worry expressed by some of Buchwald's student doctors. Likewise, "a fear of sexual arousal" makes explicit the connection between the pelvic exam and various sexual acts. Buchwald notes that both men and women are subject to this fear of sexual arousal. "A fear of being judged inept" signals a kind of "performance anxiety," a feeling common in both inexperienced and experienced clinical and sexual performers. "A fear of disturbance of the doctor-patient relationship" recognized the existence of a type of "incest taboo" within the pelvic exam scenario."
The second study analyses the Phsycological aspects of the relationship Gynaecologist Female Patients:
It is impossible for anybody to psychologically get rid of the sexual feelings and the emotions aroused by them. A person may not externalize, may not manifest what he/she is feeling, he/she may keep his/her feelings secret - according to the demands of situations in which the expression of some feelings is inappropriate or even inconvenient. Even so the person cannot avoid feeling them, as psychological phenomena that they are. Nevertheless, there is a mental "trick" which a lot of people, wrongly, make use of: it is to try to repress these feelings and emotions, pretending that they do not exist and throwing them into the unconscious. But now the problems multiply. Anything that is not brought to consciousness and exposed to reflection not only remains out of the control of consciousness and reason, but also starts acting as disturbing factors emerging from the unconscious. Frequently people do not realize that many troubles are caused by repressed feelings. A lot of prejudices aggravate the whole problem.
Gynecologic practice implies the exposition of the intimacy of the female body and the touch of parts of this body by the physician in order to perform the examination. This fact can arouse the most varied feelings, not only on the patients, but also in the male or female doctors, depending on the peculiarities of the individual psychology of each one of them. It is fundamental that gynecologists and patients are capable of dealing adequately with them at the psychological level.
Several kinds of projections, fantasies, conflicts and resistances appear on both sides of the gynecologist-patient relationship. Women frequently project on male gynecologists their problems concerning men and the way they view the male sex. Male gynecologists can also project on the patients their problems regarding women, as well as the peculiar way they view the female sex. Almost always, the psychological dynamics of these processes is not adequately brought to consciousness by either one of the parties and, because of this, several problems can appear, disturbing the treatment. As I already said, the gynecologist-patient relationship often acquires very neurotic patterns.
As I always emphasize, Gynecology is an extremely problematic speciality which, even so, neither becomes aware of this fact nor tries to place itself under discussion. It has always been astonishing to me that diverse subjects related to Women's Medicine are not discussed either within Gynecology or out of it. Some of the probable reasons for this can be: 1) the incapability to perceive determined facts and/or reflect about them; 2) not wanting to admit the existence of these facts, because they are "disturbing" for the present attitude of mind of most people; 3) the interests and conveniences of the medical ideologies and beliefs that dominate Women's Medicine."
I hope the studies of these Female and Male Gynaecologist may help you and the other readers to understand aspects of intimate examinations without the risks of personal bias.
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replied October 7th, 2012
Experienced User
It is very insulting for you to say that a woman who goes to a male gynecologist has no morals and their boyfriend/husband doesn't care about them. Honestly if I was with a guy who wouldn't let me go to the doctor I choose I would think he was very controlling and leave him.
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replied November 19th, 2012
MisteryIlness and CarolineED Your answer are totally flawed
MisteryIlness and CarolineED Your answers are totally flawed
Your logic is totally flawed I agree with Pailrider and QualifiedOpinion: your answer does not really make much sense in relation to the issue:

Many men can use the same words to justify going to lap dancers’ club or to prostitutes too:

Does it bother you that I see female dance professionals?

You do realise that those women see thousands of men every day!!! To them touching my genitals is just part of their job.

There are security men present all the time to protect them.

Most of these ladies have a boyfriend: They go home to their boyfriend once the show is over and get their sexual needs met there, not in the club.

There is a huge difference between sex and lap-dancing: Don't let your insecurities and doubts mess with your partner's ability to get some entertainment.

Do you have issues with self-confidence and do you doubt you can keep your partner happy and satisfied? No?! So why does it bother you?

Oh, it bothers you that I see many women opening their legs in front of me every night and I see their genitals and breasts?

Oh you have nothing to worry about that, think about it: the more I see naked women opening their legs in front of me, the less I like them; this is exactly what happens to all men, like the male gynaecologists, don't you know that?!?! Once a man sees hundreds of women naked, he does not like them any-more and he never feels aroused...A lot of women have explained this to me so many times. At the beginning I didn't want to believe them, but after all how could I know how a male mind works, I am just a man. They instead are women, so having a female mind; they know exactly how my male mind works.

Oh, you say that it is different because for male gynos, seeing naked women is their job, but for me it is not a job!!!

Oh Yes!!!! I thought about that too, you know?! That is why I opened a lap-dance club. Now, that I am the manager and it is my job, you really have nothing to worry about.

Oh you are not convinced yet. Ah, I see you think I might have vested interest in my professional choice, you think I might have chosen this profession because I like naked women?

Noooo!!!! How many times do I have to repeat it to you?! All women are the same, they all have vaginas and breasts, so once you have seen one of them, you have seen them all. So you have really nothing to worry about: I have seen you, I know how women are done, they are no different from you,Why should I have any attraction to them?!?!

I told you already, how men's mind work; how many times I have to repeat that: the more men see naked women, the less they get attracted to them. Otherwise, also male gynos would get turned on all the time. Plus for me it is even easier, because I do not even touch the ladies in my club. Moreover, I get less intimate, I do not even know their sex history, I never asked it.

What does it mean that I cannot compare my job to male gynos? Ah, you say that they help women to stay better.
Oh, believe me I do that too: at 400 pounds for a few hours of dancing, all the ladies in my club are pretty happy, And with all that dancing, I make them do, they keep themselves really healthy and fit.

Oh but male gynos help women to make an early diagnosis of cancer. Oh, I do better, I help preventing it: Have you not read the recent medical publications? Stress is directly linked to cancer, my ladies and my customers have fun and relax themselves, so this helps them to reduce the risk of cancer. It is scientifically proved: you can read it in the same medical reviews which talk about pap smear for cervix cancer.

Ah you say that if I wanted to help people, I could have chosen a different field of specialization. Of course, the same as your male gyno; for instance he could have chosen oncology to help people with cancer, or a paediatrics to help women with babies. But he chose to be a women’s doctor, so why I cannot be a women’s manager?

Oh I still have not convinced you?!?!?! Ah, I see why:

You don’t like those women who open their legs to men who are not their husbands. You think it is morally wrong and not dignified? Really?! Why don’t you say the same to your female friends who go to a male gynaecologist?!

Oh you, also think that men who go there to watch women opening their legs do wrong? Really?! If you think that why don’t you say the same to your male gynaecologists?

Oh, come on, don’t tell me that those women don't have dignity because they open their legs to other men; you opened your legs to 8 male gynaecologists in the last 8 years. What should I say about you, then?

Ah, you say they can choose a different job, but you have no choice, because it is for your health care. Really!? Why couldn’t you choose female gynaecologists, if you wanted?! You know there are plenty of them.

Ah, now I have to shut up, because you are an adult woman and you are free to choose the doctor you want and I must not offend your dignity and not be controlling.

Sure, no problem, so you shut up too, stop offending my dignity and dance professionals' dignity. Also stop being controlling, I and those women's are adults too and we can choose our profession and our working partners too.
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replied November 19th, 2012
Experienced User
There is a major difference between gynecologists/their clients and exotic dancers. Dancers are trying to sexually arouse their clients. Gynecologists are giving a medical examination.

Some things separate humans from animals. We have the ability to not bring sex into situations it doesn't belong in. You cannot tell me you become sexually aroused every single time you see the genitals of your preferred sex. I am a young, heterosexual female with a healthy sex drive and there is no reason I couldn't look at a penis without getting sexually aroused. I can say with 100% confidence that if I worked as a urologist, I could examine patients in a non-sexual way, because it is not a sexual situation. You may argue that women and men have different sex drives, I say that is false. Our society likes to portray men as sex-crazed maniacs who can't help themselves which is why so many people blame the victim with rape and sexual harassment. But the reality is, men can control themselves and can see female genitalia without becoming aroused.

How do you feel about gay female gynecologists? How about a gay male gynecologist, or a female urologist?
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replied November 23rd, 2012
An article published by forwomenseyesonly wordpress on 09/2012
The Other Side of the Speculum: A Male Doctor’s Point of View

Article Published on September 9, 2012 on forwomenseyesonly wordpress

Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams. What follows is a comment from written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):
Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am

I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .

I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…

Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”

Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look-I mean, really LOOK-at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.

So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know-there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.

My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.

Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive-I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).

In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)-the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).

Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever.
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replied November 19th, 2012
Mystery illness, this is a more articulated reply to your post
First of all, everybody knows that sexual attraction is something that no human being can completely eliminate in any setting. Someone may feel sexually attracted to a person he/she met in church, in the library, at school, in the hospital, in prison, in the local medical centre, etc. It's in not uncommon for both women and men to have a crush on their teacher, nurse, priest, doctor. So the educational, medical, religious setting matters only to a certain degree, because it does not eliminate completely sexual attraction.

The physical appearance of the person you are dealing with matters, and play a dominant role in sexual attraction: Men get turned on watching lap-dancers not because they are in a club, but because they are hot: try to put an ugly, obese, old woman, doing the same things in the same club and see whether any men get turned on: they would not like her.

It follows that sexual-drive is not only driven by the setting, but it is especially driven by how inherently sexy the person you are dealing with is. This works for men and women alike: if you had to watch a man naked, you would not feel the same sexual attraction when examining your grandfather or Brad Pitt (this addresses you point about female urologists). The fact you may not act on your attraction is a matter of self control according to circumstances, it is not a matter of there is no sexual attraction because it is medical.

Second point: I never depicted neither men nor women as sexual beasts out of control. A man can see a beautiful woman without jumping on her as a woman can see a beautiful man without jumping on him. We can even touch each other without losing control of ourselves. That, however, says nothing about whether we have or not sexual attraction towards each other. I may not jump on my nurse, but I may well find her cute or sexy and I may prefer her taking care of me compared to the other male nurse. You may not jump on your doctor, but you may potentially, not necessarily, find him attractive ans sweet and prefer him towards another male or female doctor.

Third point, the view of naked bodies every day does not eliminate sexual attraction towards an attractive naked body compared to another. In the same way the view of thousands of faces and eyes every day does not eliminate the sexual attraction towards some beautiful eyes or some beautiful faces compared to others. All of us distinguish between a beautiful one and an ugly one. Some faces and eyes and lips we may like, find attractive and feel like kissing, some other we may not. In the same way your eye doctor may find your eyes beautiful, you gynaecologist may find you sex beautiful.

Fourth Point, With reference to lesbians, the issue is less problematic to men for many reasons:
a) their woman is with them, so she is likely heterosexual

b) if the wife/girlfriend is heterosexual she will not be attracted to another woman and she will not reciprocate if the female doctor makes a pass at her or makes some compliments

c) homosexuals are a minority, so it is less likely to find them in all professions.

These are the reasons why a man is not concerned for a heterosexual woman visiting a female doctor, regardless of whether she is lesbian or not.

On the contrary, the situation between a heterosexual woman and a heterosexual man is more worrisome for the following reasons:

a) both the heterosexual male doctor and the heterosexual female patient may have reciprocal attraction

b) Both of them may not be able to fully control it

In any case a lesbian doctor may well be a concern for the lesbian partner of a lesbian woman who is visiting a female gynaecologist. On you tube there is a young woman who sings a song she wrote herself for her female gynaecologist she is in love with [I'm in Love With My Gynecologist ~ written and performed by Kate Farrell].

Fifth point, with reference to the perception of intimate examinations as sexual and the legitimacy of husbands' feelings. I have a point proved by empirical and anecdotal evidence:

Opening a woman genital's lips, and vagina and putting their fingers inside is a visual and sensory experience that most men find sexually exciting.

Surely a boyfriend/husband who touches her wife/girlfriend's sex, kiss it and enjoy it very much, will find his woman in that position extremely sexy and sexual, hence he will probably not like the image of another man sitting in-between her legs and putting his fingers in the same sex he kissed,touched and made love to before, whether it is for a medical purpose or not.

The anecdotal evidence from this forum, i.e. what MelodyMaker, ThomasCwrone, DevotedHusband and Pailrider reported, shows that to some men seeing their woman in that position and accessed so intimately by another man made them feel so sick that they could not even look, touch or see their wives as sexual any more; they felt sickened by it and described the view as pornographic. These are facts which are to be acknowledged: They feel it sexual and no matter what you can say, those are their feelings and the ones of many other men. Repeating to yourself and to them that it not sexual, does not eliminate their perception of it as sexual.

fifth, QualifiedOpinion reports empirical studies, published by medical schools about medical students, i.e. statistics about many hundreds of men and women, which demonstrate that both male and female cannot consider "the view and the manipulation of female genitals as entirely separate from from a sexual act". Statistical evidence does not mean all the people they tested feel it sexual, it means that on average the majority of men and women they tested feel it sexual. If student of the 5th year of medicine and Students specialising in gynaecology find it sexual, it is very likely that also many person with no medical background at all find female genital view and manipulation sexual and not entirely separated from medical acts.

sixth, QualifiedOpinion also reported a document written by the British Medical Council which makes it clear that it is not unusual neither that health professional find some patients sexually attractive, nor that some patients find their doctors sexually attractive. That publication warns that all people: medical students, medical doctors and patients must be aware of these phenomena.

Seventh, What I wrote before was making sarcasm about the fact that some women seem deaf and blind with reference to legitimate feelings of their partners. Alternatively, if they are not blind and deaf, they are defending their choices for vested interests. Let me make an example:

I am copying and pasting below a post written by Amy Wallen which you can find easily on Google. This blog which she wrote about her male gyno demonstrates that to some women like her, their male gyno is more than just a health professional, it is a person they have a kind or relationship with, a person whose attentions they are jealous of, a person they would never leave,a person they do not simply go to have a check up with, but a person they like, for how he makes them feel about themselves for the compliments he makes them get etc etc.

From Amy Wallen: Unconventional relationships:

The 20-year relationship I have had with my gynecologist is not like other women’s. Mine is special, unique, and validated.

I know I’m lucky: Many women on that table are getting bad news instead of compliments about their cervix. There are three very important reasons I love my gynecologist:

1. He has the ability to save my life. White horse/white coat.
2. When I was 45, he told me I had the cervix of a 32-year-old.
3. He puts funny posters on the ceiling of the examination room

For one three-minute moment, once a year, a man got me 100%. My doctor’s professionalism and splendid bedside manner, which includes the funny signs, made my 20 years of exams not only bearable, but somewhat pleasurable. Rarely can a woman say that about her gynecologist.

But last month, with the wax paper crinkling beneath me as I laid back, I looked up and the posters were gone. I nearly slammed my knees together in response to the betrayal.

My doctor explained, and I swear I could hear a tremor in his voice, that just weeks before, another patient had come in and seen the posters and considered them unprofessional. This fusspot of a patient had apparently stormed down to the administration offices and complained.

I know I’m lucky: Many women on that table are getting bad news instead of compliments about their cervix.

I will go to the top to see that these posters are returned. I won’t let yet another relationship with my man be sullied by another woman." From Amy wallen.

Now if this does not demonstrate that for some married/engaged women their male gyno is a second man in their life. I do not know what it does. How can a husband/boyfriend be cool with having this third person in between him and his wife and especially in between his wife's legs?

The problem is that I hear a lot of these stories from husbands. The problem is also that if this happens it also means that also male doctors, sometime take advantage of the situation and are not just professionals, they allow these relationships to happen.

If the Male gyno was a fair professional able to control himself, he would have already dismissed this patient. He would have probably made it very clear that their relationship is not special, that it is inappropriate she feels angry to him for accommodating another female patient's need, that he is not her man etc etc.
On the contrary this professional stayed with this woman for 22 years and he keeps receiving her. A blind person could see there is more than a detached medical patient-doctor relationship there. But this male doctor and this woman kept seeing each other for 22 years and it is not the only case, I could report.

As QualifiedOpinion pointed out, most women and male doctors are not able to recognise and deal properly with their sexual attractions and maintain sexual boundaries, they pretend there is nothing there but medical visits, when clearly a husband/boyfriend reckon there is indeed much more than a medical examination: there are his wife and a doctor engaging emotionally and sexually.

A woman, girlfriend, wife giving a man access to her sex is something empowering to him. It makes him feel special, important, privileged among others to whom that access is denied. This works the same way for men toward women.

The normal instinct of men is to feel jealous about it. If they can prevent other men from viewing those breasts they cannot stop kissing, or vagina they find so sexy and they feel so theirs, they would gladly do so.

If a boyfriend kindly asks you to go to a female doctor, or if he tells you he does not like that young male doctor you are visiting, because he has the feeling that doctor is treating u "too kindly" and dedicating you "too much time and too many attentions" compared to the other female doctor. That is a normal human reaction.

Let assume inside yourself you know it's nothing to worry about because you don't like the doctor and for you going to him or to another it is the same thing as for you they are all the same. Why on earth should you, if you care about your boyfriend feelings and emotions, give your bf a slap on the face, and insist in going to that male doctor then? Why would you tell him, I will go anyway, I don't care how you feel.

I mean unless you have a very complicated surgery, where being choosy about the doctor would be more justified, in the case of your annual check up, which any average dr can do, if you insist in going to that male doctor, and disappointing your bf request, what do you think your bf would think?!?!

He will think that either you do not care about his feelings, or that you really like the male doctor, or that you have an uncontrollable need to show you are independent and to demonstrate to yourself you can control you sex-drive at all costs. In all cases it would be worrisome for him and it would hurt him.

All your aggressiveness, all your way of talking "I do what I want", "I do not care what my man say", "if he speaks out he is just controlling freak", is just forgive me the expression pure "rubbish". For a couple relationship to work, each partner must take into account the other's feelings or the relationship will inevitably break up. In writing those words both you and CarolineEF were not different from the portrait of the man I intentionally depicted above, in my sarcastic monologue.

A normal wife/girlfriend would not behave that way, she would be sensitive to her man's feelings, she would not want to hurt him or drive him away from her. She would be very much aware that she is exposing her body and especially her sex, which her boyfriend kisses every day, touches every day, makes love to every day to another man, who is not above his boyfriend neither morally, nor sexually.

A normal wife/girlfriend would understand a certain reasonable degree of justified jealousy and discomfort for such an intimate examination. She would know that no man likes his woman to spread her legs in front of another man, who opens it wide and puts his fingers in.

If her boyfriend/husband feels uncomfortable, A normal wife/girlfriend,would not find that difficult to accommodate her boyfriend's feelings, as one doctor or another should be the same for a standard annual check up.

If she is unable/unwilling to do so, it means she is "driven" by other hidden motivations, then purely her healthcare needs.

In that case there is a problem with her, not with her man: I have never seeing anyone (neither male nor female), fighting so hard to see a someone they do not care for and they do not like, and putting at risk the relationship with a person they love just for that.

Reasonable adult men recognise the importance of such intimate examinations for women's healthcare. However, they think that the choice of the doctor who performs them must be justified exclusively by medical reasons relevant to the quality of the healthcare. Especially if a husband has expressed a preference for the female doctor, if a good female doctor is available and there is no specific medical justification to prefer a male to a female doctor, choosing a man over a woman can be interpreted as a choice driven by a sexual preference, or attraction to the male health care provider and as such it would be difficult to accept it.

You may well say "I choose who I like because the body is mine and I do whatever I want with it". Fair enough, there is no problem with it: it's a free world. However, mind that freedom works both ways: a man might well get fed up with your careless attitude towards his feelings, decide to dump you, and move on to date someone else who shows him more compassion, respect and love.

So if you really love your boyfriend/husband, I am not sure whether your self-centred attitude really makes sense in a long-term relationship.
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replied November 29th, 2012
A report by Brent Thoma, Male Medical Student, about smear tests
A report by Brent Thoma, Male Medical Student, about smear tests
I decided to post an article from a 24 y.o. male student about the practice of smear tests by male students.

This article is published on the Canadian Family Physician, the Official Journal of the College of family physicians of Canada.

In this article he describes what goes through the mind of m ale students while they approach a female patient and have to ask the patient to get naked. He explains how they are taught to simulate they do not feel any emotions and that they don't pay any attention to the female forms because they see hundreds of them. He also gives evidence that they are instead very much aware of different women's shapes and forms as well as how the female patients perceive them.

I hope you enjoy the reading.

"I know women hate Pap smears. I wouldn’t enjoy a complete stranger shoving foreign objects into my body either. But here’s a little known fact: men, especially young men, hate performing them. I know the first thing that pops into a woman’s mind as she spreads her legs is not going to be “I wonder if he’s uncomfortable,” but please hear out the guy on the other side of the speculum—I detest this procedure more than you do.

Put yourself in my shoes for a second. You’re a 24-year-old male medical student in your second week at the clinic. It’s been a great day—low back pain, otitis media, pharyngitis; you’re really getting the hang of this family med thing. And then you get to the next room and face your worst nightmare: [Women’s name]—Complete.

Your first instinct is to be professional: pretend you didn’t notice the chart and hope someone else sees the patient while you’re hiding in the bathroom. Unfortunately, today your luck fails and it’s all up to you.

So, you enter the room and note the inevitable inaudible groan from the hapless female. There are a number of variations on this groan, depending on the patient’s age:

The young teenager: “Aghh!! A boy!?!?!” followed by immediately looking at the ground. In the meantime, you thank God that she doesn’t need a Pap smear.

The old teenager: “Omigod. I, like, totally can’t believe that this, like, totally random dude is going to see my vajayjay! I’ve got to text [best friend]. Wait ... he’s kind of cute.”

The 20- to 30-year-old woman: “AWKWARD.”

The 30- to 45-year-old woman: “Ugh, a student ... and a male student! Just my luck, he probably hasn’t even found a vagina yet.”

The > 45-year-old woman: “Hahaha, oh, a young buck!”

If this isn’t bad enough, it gets even more awkward if they came in for a physical only because they didn’t want to tell the nurse that they have “something” going on “down there.” Suffice to say, herpetic lesions, warts, yeast infections, and week-old tampons are not what get me up in the morning.

All is not lost yet, however. You still have the interview to “build rapport.” Personally, I have yet to build enough “rapport” with a woman after knowing her for 10 minutes to stick anything in her vagina. And yet, you do your best to build this mythical “rapport” anyway. By the time you’re done the interview, you’ve drawn a complete pedigree, discussed what psychiatric ailments might be more likely to affect her as a middle child, taken her blood pressure (regular and orthostatic), and inquired about the health of her ex-husband. You know more about her than her mother, yet you still don’t feel ready. So, on the way to get your preceptor you frantically search through your PDA to find an evidence-based reason why this woman simply doesn’t need a Pap smear.

Inevitably, you end up back in the room with your preceptor, who has a 2-minute chat with the patient (to build rapport, you know) before getting out the speculum. The next trick is to stand quietly in the corner of the exam room, writing frantically while he gets things ready. This technique relies on the attending’s kindness: if he is merciful, your presence will be forgotten and you’ll escape the perils of the vagina once again. If not ... it’s show time....

...Tthe trick is to keep the patient comfortable by explaining the procedure to them as you do it. This provides an unfortunate opportunity for your voice to crack while saying, “Just let your legs fall apart.” The attendings seem to have mastered saying these things with the tone used in those Philadelphia Cream Cheese heaven commercials. Unfortunately for me, I just can’t say “Now I’m going to insert the speculum into your vagina” in that tone—no matter how many times I practise in front of the mirror.

You’d think that from there, things would get easier. Unfortunately, there is a huge variety of female anatomy. There are women of all shapes, sizes, and grooming preferences. This presents one final problem: what if you can’t find the cervix? If you’ve avoided feeling awkward up to this point, imagine yourself frantically moving the speculum around like a searchlight while hoping to God you don’t have to say, “Uhhh, I can’t find it.”

So there you have it—what’s going on in the head of the person on the other side of the speculum. For anyone who will soon learn to perform this horrid ritual, I recommend that you talk yourself through it before you try to talk a patient through it (trust me, you don’t want to say “it” instead of “speculum”); learn to give instructions in the Philadelphia-cheese-lady voice; never, ever compliment anything down there; and pretend you see vaginas every day.

And for all the women out there who are lucky enough to be the subject for someone’s first Pap smear, try to remember that we’re just as uncomfortable as you are. My first attempt actually laughed through the procedure because I was so “cute and awkward.”

I’m now contemplating a career in ophthalmology."

I hope the article gave you a better insight in the male doctors/medical students' issues related to intimate examinations.
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