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A miscarriage does NOT make your opinion "special." (Page 1)

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As of today, I've officially had enough of the attitude that we should show extra consideration for the abortion opinions of women solely on the basis of their having had a miscarriage. Just so I don't seem biased, I also have no patience for pro-choice women who think abortion is OK just because miscarriages happen naturally. However, I see a lot more of the pro-life type of opportunism, which is that their grief makes someone else's abortion that much more horrible. I'm tired of it and I think it's sick. A dead baby is a tragedy in any context and to use such a tragedy to add "points" to your argument is ghoulish. I'd like to go ahead and label myself as the heartless cad that will shoot you down if you want to bring your private grief into a public debate forum. Don't expect me to tiptoe!

You know, I hear a lot about how childless couples (and mothers who keep miscarrying) hope and pray for the blessing of a baby, but that perspective can be flipped. I'm sure there's more than one pregnant girl or woman out there praying for a miscarriage because for one reason or another, she can't have an abortion. To her, another's horror would be a sweet relief. Therefore, no one should go around acting like the whole damn world feels the same way they do about everything.
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replied December 27th, 2009
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Yep...how many women have not been relieved when they their late period finally arrives?
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replied December 27th, 2009
Experienced User
Nothing more than a rant that means absolutely nothing in the abortion debate as a whole. If a women wants to share her sorrow, who are you to shoot her down. After all aren't you "choicers" supposed to be so prowoman? Doesn't sound like it here.
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replied December 27th, 2009
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My rant is about a subject which means absolutely nothing in the abortion debate as a whole. I thought I made it clear who I am to shoot her down. I'm a "heartless cad" who's had enough of certain women swinging their dead babies at me in a gruesome attempt to further demonize abortion. Suggesting that I'm anti-woman because I think this is NOT THE PLACE to share the sorrow of a miscarriage is just sullen name-calling. This is not a miscarriage support group. It's an abortion debate forum.
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replied December 27th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
oopoopoop wrote:
Yep...how many women have not been relieved when they their late period finally arrives?


I know I was so relieved I nearly passed out the two times I had a pregnancy scare and got my cycle. They don't call it a "scare" for nothing. I get tired of infertile women projecting their feelings onto others and trying to shame women who don't feel "blessed" by an unwanted pregnancy.

I have compassion for people who desperately want offspring but can't conceive, and I have sympathy for women who miscarry a wanted pregnancy. That doesn't mean I'm going to bear a child to make them feel better about their situation, though.
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Users who thank Darkmoon for this post: DamianaRaven 

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replied December 27th, 2009
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Darkmoon wrote:
I know I was so relieved I nearly passed out the two times I had a pregnancy scare and got my cycle. They don't call it a "scare" for nothing. I get tired of infertile women projecting their feelings onto others and trying to shame women who don't feel "blessed" by an unwanted pregnancy.

I have compassion for people who desperately want offspring but can't conceive, and I have sympathy for women who miscarry a wanted pregnancy. That doesn't mean I'm going to bear a child to make them feel better about their situation, though.


Very well said! So much so that I'm a little abashed and should point out that despite my blunt words, I too feel compassion for women who are infertile or who have lost a baby that they loved and wanted. However, my compassion goes right down the crapper the instant they step into an abortion debate and bring it up in an attempt to manipulate my compassion into sympathy for their cause. I don't see how anyone could mistake this forum for a support group, so looking for sympathy here is clearly an underhanded debate tactic and when used on me, it will backfire!
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replied December 27th, 2009
Experienced User
Actually what you don't understand is that a grieving mother wants to give her child's short life a purpose and if that purpose is to help other moms not do something that may cause them grief. So be it. If this is what helps this mother in her grief process, what's it to you? You want others to show compassion to abortive women but you don't want to extend compassion to an obviously grieving women and instead not only insult her but her died child. Not only that but you use very cruel, nasty words to inflict intentional pain. Shame on you and very hippocritical in my opinion.
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replied December 27th, 2009
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We all have our little justifications for the things we do. I'm sure the "grieving mother" rationalizes her tactics in quite the same smug, flowery way that you've done. She doesn't see herself as manipulative and ghoulish, oh goodness no! She sees herself as a brave crusader looking to give meaning to her baby's short life. This is not the place for her to enshrine her dead child. I'm sorry, but I don't see it as the noble work of a bereaved mother. I see it as a manipulative tactic by a busybody who can't mind her own business and let women decide for themselves whether or not to keep their babies. In fact, these women probably secretly resent the idea of someone having a choice in the matter when she herself wasn't consulted or counseled before losing her child.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to play their sick little mind games here - I'm just warning them that I can play nasty too. If you want to use your "wound" as an example of why women shouldn't have a choice about what goes on in their own bodies, I'll rip off the scab and feed it to you. It's one thing to make a plea to women that "babies are precious," but to advocate the removal of a freedom women currently enjoy is just inviting my wrath.
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replied December 27th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
DamianaRaven wrote:
If you want to use your "wound" as an example of why women shouldn't have a choice about what goes on in their own bodies, I'll rip off the scab and feed it to you.


Now, there's a visual I could have done without. giggle

Brutal, yet honest.
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replied December 27th, 2009
Experienced User
Keep on posting, just solidifies my opinion of your cruelty toward other women. Glad you are on the other side "helping" their cause. Shudder.
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replied December 27th, 2009
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Darkmoon wrote:
Now, there's a visual I could have done without. giggle

Brutal, yet honest.


My apologies, dear. Sometimes I can be a little too colorful with my language and yes, I get angry enough to feel quite brutal about it. Even so, I am honest in my emotions and don't believe things should be sugar-coated and couched in flowery language.
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replied December 27th, 2009
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Respect wrote:
Keep on posting, just solidifies my opinion of your cruelty toward other women. Glad you are on the other side "helping" their cause. Shudder.


Me too. Try to imagine how dangerous and destructive I might be if someone with my intellect and passion bought into your belief system. Say what you will about me, but you can't deny that I'm smart and I face things head on without flinching. I only get cruel when provoked and I thought it'd be fair to warn folks that waving dead babies at me is considered provocation in my book. "Lifers" who want to force other women to become walking uteri for babies that they don't want will not enjoy the luxury of hiding behind their grief or any other noble "shield."
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replied December 27th, 2009
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passion does not equal cruelty. I don't have to imagine how dangerous and destructive you are, you prove that with each early death of the fellow humans you condemn.
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replied December 28th, 2009
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See what I mean about judgement? You say you don't point a finger at anyone, but look at yourself. You just stated quite plainly that I'm a dangerous and destructive person because I make sure that the poor have the same pregnancy options as the rich. If you were counting on poverty to save a few of your precious little fetuses, then I'm sure you're very frustrated to know that there are people like me out there, making sure that babies aren't born into abject poverty and that their mothers have a CHANCE to pull themselves out of the vicious cycle they're caught in.

Let's be real clear about something, since you're keen to vilify me in any way you can. I have NEVER recommended abortion to any woman who's pregnant and conflicted about it. The only time I pay for abortion is in the rare cases where a woman shows up at the clinic broke and begging for help - that is, help to get an abortion rather than advice about what to do.

I offer the women I help solutions to their problem and an end to their torment. You offer a few packs of diapers and the suggestion that they run out and get on welfare and food stamps. That's a favorite tidbit of advice for the pro-life movement - "The government has many 'programs' to help single mothers, so poverty is no excuse to abort." What cheeses me off is when these same advocates of compassion vote against social programs like day care subsidies because they don't want their taxes raised to support other people's children. You can't deny the statistics which prove that pro-lifers are the among first to protest the funding of social assistance. After all, shouldn't these careless hussies have thought about the cost of raising a kid before they popped out a baby?
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replied December 28th, 2009
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If you read your own post YOU called YOURSELF dangerous and destructive. Don't pin your own words on me and call me judgemental. You have no idea what I do to help women and trivializing what I do doesn't make your funding the killing of unwanted humans any nicer. Please show me your statistics that prolifers protest social assistance. Since I have actually used social assistance in the past I would find those statistics interesting. So offering diapers and other necessities and the social assistance we vote against, is worse than you funding the killing of their unborn children? Can't you see your own contradictions?
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replied December 28th, 2009
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Respect wrote:
If you read your own post YOU called YOURSELF dangerous and destructive. Don't pin your own words on me and call me judgemental. You have no idea what I do to help women and trivializing what I do doesn't make your funding the killing of unwanted humans any nicer. Please show me your statistics that prolifers protest social assistance. Since I have actually used social assistance in the past I would find those statistics interesting. So offering diapers and other necessities and the social assistance we vote against, is worse than you funding the killing of their unborn children? Can't you see your own contradictions?


Look, I said that I would be dangerous and destructive if I was passionately pro-life. You countered by asserting that I already AM dangerous and destructive. I didn't mean to trivialize what you do, but from my perspective it did seem trivial to offer a handout here and there. You're right though. I don't know to what lengths you go and I apologize. Even if all you ever did was hand out one pack of diapers, I still have no right to sneer at your act of kindness and compassion. It was rude of me and I'm sorry.

As to my proof, all I have is political generalizations. Pro-lifers tend to be right wing conservatives, and this group has taken a clear stand against social programs like welfare, food stamps, day care vouchers, and other such assistance.

As to being contradictory, we're each guilty of thinking that "my brand of charity is better than yours because..." I think that we're bringing out the worst in each other, so I'll stop it here with an apology. I really am sorry for some of the snide things I've said to you. Please don't take this to mean that I've budged a millimeter in my views on abortion, but I shouldn't be attacking you personally. You're probably a really nice person in any other circumstance. Have a great night and maybe we can be more civil to one another after a good night's sleep.
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replied December 28th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
I'm sick of women crying about how they wished they'd aborted the children they already had while in the same breath shooting down giving that child to a fmaily who deserves them way more, ie someone who doesn't resent them. The chance for an abortion ends once the fetus is born alive. End of story, got regrets, either give it up, or get over it. Regreting not getitng an abortion isn't an excuse for abuse (emotional mental physical sexual or neglect).


Also, women regretting their abortions sound liek a bunch of hypocrits (abortion was great for ME but now after I've had one and no longer need it I think it should be illegal blah blah blah) yeah, call me heartless. I feel no sympathy for either group. They need to grow up and deal with their choices like adults.

Add those to the list and I think you've covered the basics!
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Users who thank Phenicks for this post: DamianaRaven 

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replied December 28th, 2009
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I, too, reserve a special brand of contempt for the pro-lifers who are seeking to illegalize abortion because they had one and didn't like it. You're absolutely right that they're hypocrites who enjoyed a certain freedom and now think that taking the same freedom from other women will atone for the "sin" that they regret. I once compared it to Keith Richards doing anti-drug commercials. If you want me to listen to someone rant about the evils of a particular action, you'd better find me someone who has had the self control to abstain from that action themselves. Otherwise, they come across as bitter, hypocritical busybodies who can't think of a better way to make up for their mistakes. Thanks for the concern, but don't use ME and MY LIFE in your pathetic attempt to clear your slate with God or your own conscience. Invent a time machine or get over yourself!
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replied December 28th, 2009
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[quote="DamianaRaven
Look, I said that I would be dangerous and destructive if I was passionately pro-life. You countered by asserting that I already AM dangerous and destructive. I didn't mean to trivialize what you do, but from my perspective it did seem trivial to offer a handout here and there. You're right though. I don't know to what lengths you go and I apologize. Even if all you ever did was hand out one pack of diapers, I still have no right to sneer at your act of kindness and compassion. It was rude of me and I'm sorry.

As to my proof, all I have is political generalizations. Pro-lifers tend to be right wing conservatives, and this group has taken a clear stand against social programs like welfare, food stamps, day care vouchers, and other such assistance.

As to being contradictory, we're each guilty of thinking that "my brand of charity is better than yours because..." I think that we're bringing out the worst in each other, so I'll stop it here with an apology. I really am sorry for some of the snide things I've said to you. Please don't take this to mean that I've budged a millimeter in my views on abortion, but I shouldn't be attacking you personally. You're probably a really nice person in any other circumstance. Have a great night and maybe we can be more civil to one another after a good night's sleep.[/quote]

I am sorry, I missread your statement about being dangerous and distructive. I too think we have rubbed each other the wrong way tonight. I understand you are trying to help women same as I am. You would be amazed at what some prolifers do. Actually my family started adn runs a large program that supplies anything needed for families from birth to graduation, from clothing, furnature, school supplies, haircuts, you name it, if a family needs it we try to supply it. This is all done with donations and grants. Not one cent comes from the government. I am not able to assist much anymore in the hands on part but continue to donate whatever I can, new and used.
I have to admit, I am ashamed of myself for letting myself lose my cool and making cutting and attacking remarks to you. I am sure you are also a nice person in "real" life. I am ready to start again if you want. Deal? Just beware, I am also not changing my views and beliefs on abortion, but would really like a respectful discussion to help change the misunderstandings on both sides. I think we all have something to learn from each other and I do believe we all want to reduce unwanted pregnancies to help reduce or end abortions. THAT would be the best case scenerio. Peace
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replied December 28th, 2009
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I think that would be a great idea. I'm certainly amenable to a truce and sometime soon maybe we can open a thread for ourselves to discuss our viewpoints without getting emotional and trying to change each other's minds. The ability to respect people with different beliefs is the true mark of civilization and frankly, until people everywhere learn this skill, humanity has no hope of rising above its own horror. Peace to you as well!
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