Yep, that's true. It isn't right, and it isn't wrong. It really is pretty simple, but unfortunately many simple people try to complicate it.

I'd glad you agree!

There's nothing complicated about reproduction? There is nothing complicated about the science and work that goes into trying to prevent a pregnancy and getting pregnant against 99% odds or trying to get pregnant and NOT getting pregnant against 99% odds? There's nothing complicated about rape, incest, domestic violence, fetal abnormalties, maternal health, or just womn's rights in general?

Wow. An abortion is just *simply* abortion no matter how, why or when you do it there is NO difference between that 8 year old in Brazil aborting twins her pedaphiliac stepfather impregnanted her with and some woman who never wants to have kids consenting to sex getting knocked up and then aborting the fetus because she never ever wants kids in the first place? No difference between the woman who aborts a fetus she spent thousands of dollars trying to conceive because it died inside of her in the 8 month and someone who aborts a fetus within the first 8 weeks because she can't afford another baby?

If you can simplify all of that I suggest you sat by addressing the women that finds no simplicity in their situations and telling them how simple they ae for not seeing it your way.

There is no "right" and no "wrong" in abortion. Abortion is a medical procedure. You may not like the idea. I don't like the idea of breast implants, botox or vaginal reconstruction. I don't like the idea of tattoos and facial piercings. I don't like the idea of liposuction. But that doesn't make them right or wrong. It just makes them things I wouldn't do.

Yeah and things that are neither right nor wrong are usually anything but simple. FOr some breast implants, botox, and vaginal reconstruction surgery corrects a deformity (either it be birth defect or disease inflicted). Still most others do it for social reasons but very few people goes to teh plastic surgeon because they are bored with nothing else to do with their time or money. I could easily say the same for abortions.

I don't like the idea of blood and gore in any situation and abortions have blood and gore. It CAN be wrong to have an abortion (ie waking up 9 months pregnant and wondering which is the most effective way to kill the fetus inside you) just as some fool may wake up one morning and decide it would be cool if he got breast implants on his back so when he gave himself a hug he could cop a feel. Both are very unlikely situations but completely possibles and why some people oppose the procedures. They fear the extremes. Most people realize extremes are rare when they aren't being too biased to their own side.

An early fetus is no more mentally existent than a rock or a piece of grass. Women, on the other hand, are intelligent sentient beings. What kind of logic would take rights away from a woman (a REAL human being) in order to save an early stage embryo?

Ohmygod! I mowed the lawn last weekend! How many wickle biddy bwades of gwass did I destroy?! Cut off before they ever had a chance to grow! My heart bweeds!

Gotta love the crazy catholics!

"Hey everyone, instead of having sex out of love, we need to do it to have lots more babies!"

I guess to the Catholic wackos, we can never have enough needy starving children. Its the "go fourth and multiply" attitude that will deal serious blows to the quality of life for the rest of us humans.

*sigh* Why must we attack religion when discussing abortion? Some of the greatest humanitarians of our time were religious.


And I saw you comparing developing fetuses to rocks (not scientifically accurate comparison but not my point). I couldn't help but notice you specifically pointed out early stages, does that mean you are for or against abortion in the later stages or want restrictions on access to abortion in the later stages of pregnancy?

"*sigh* Why must we attack religion when discussing abortion? Some of the greatest humanitarians of our time were religious."

I couldn't agree more. Lets see... Well, there were the priests who stuck Native American's hands in searing hot pots until they converted (I believe it was called something along the lines of "sticky pot"). Excellent humanitarianism there. Lets not forget the Spanish, who used to shove a funnel down a "heretic's" throat, pour water down until they'd fill up like a water balloon, then drop a boulder on their stomach and watch the water shoot upward. And lets not forget what used to be a favorite pastime of your "humanitarians": setting women (usually elderly) on fire. But wait, lets not forget the "humanitarians" who smashed a few jumbo jets into tall buildings
and took over two thousand American lives in the process. And when all of these "humanitarians" rush to one side of the abortion debate, you'll be sure to find me (and those with half an intellect) on the other.


A few years of giving to the poor doesn't really make up for two thousand years of rape, pillage, homicide, and torture. Methinks we humans should be a little too evolved for this.

Anyway, my intention was not to hijack the thread. You cited an argument of mine out of context. I specifically stated that fetuses were like rocks because both do not mentally exist. If you have a better comparison I'd like to hear it.


And to answer your last question, yes, I am against late term abortions.

I'll chalk this up to you being facetious unless you are a sick racist and sexist who doesn't recognize the like of Ghandi (who was religious), Mother Theresa ( who was religious) Martin Luther King Jr (who was also religious) or do these people not register with you because they were not white males? MLK would have stood on the other side of the abortion debate are you calling him ignorant? Are you saying the death threats he endured and his assisination was justified because he was pro-life????? Come on, speak up. Are you sexist? Racist? Or are you too ignorant to know of the VAST and wide spread humanitarian efforts of these EXTREMELY religious people????

"I'll chalk this up to you being facetious unless you are a sick racist and sexist who doesn't recognize the like of Ghandi (who was religious), Mother Theresa ( who was religious) Martin Luther King Jr (who was also religious) or do these people not register with you because they were not white males?"

Jeeze, corner a snake and he'll bite. I'm glad that I finally found out that when you start to lose a debate, you start throwing words like "racist" and "sexist" (this one's quite ironic coming from a lifer) around when the only person who has mentioned race and sex is you. I don't deny that there are some good religious people out there, but that doesn't make up for the atrocious crimes committed in the name of religion. MLK would have stood on the other side of the abortion debate, hmm? You think he'd be so quick to fight for black rights, and then turn around and try to strip away the rights of women so quickly? I don't think so.

"Are you saying the death threats he endured and his assisination was justified because he was pro-life????? Come on, speak up. Are you sexist? Racist? Or are you too ignorant to know of the VAST and wide spread humanitarian efforts of these EXTREMELY religious people???? "

At this point, you are either intoxicated, under the influence of a hallucinogen, or you're just a few tacos short of a Mexican restaurant. You're humiliating yourself by screaming at me and calling me a "racist" with not a shred of evidence to back it up. Don't defend the indefensible. More people have lost their lives to religion than any other organization. Why don't you tell the souls of the severely tortured "heretics" how great religion is? If Galileo were alive I could bring him in here to tell you about the vast compassion and intelligence of the church. Personally, my religious beliefs have nothing to do with this, because this isn't about beliefs.

"Or are you too ignorant to know of the VAST and wide spread humanitarian efforts of these EXTREMELY religious people???? "

I'm sure Hitler did a few nice things in his life too. That doesn't justify the atrocities he committed.

First, I'm not a pro-lifer. I also know that MLK was highly religious and didn't see abortion rights the way the way most exptreme pro abortion people do. There are those who are prochoice then there are those who are pro-abortion.

Did you just equate MLK, to Hitler and then say you're not racist? You're a joke, there are no heretics here. You come off as anti-christ, someone who adamantly does not believe in Christ, as was Charles Manson or do you think he was a good person because he would have eaten a fetus if given a chance?

When you start YOUR heretics about how horrible all religious people are then as a religious person I will respond with heretics about how horrible people who are not religius are, can be and have been. The big focus seems to be put on Catholicism when there are religions that condone FEMALE circumcision so I have a hard time believing a man is really for women's rights when he doesnt even address THAT issue if he is going to address religion in women's rights. More women die every year from FGM than they do from botched abortions why don't you know this if you proclaim to be for women's rights? Why don't you know that Judaism and Islam ALIKE support this practice as an answer to male cicumcision and why haven't you addressed that in the atrocities of religion? Or is that the only thing that effects you is the random women you screw being able to abort the fetuses you dont want coming to light? Hey its not your body but I can understand why you'd fight hard for your right not to become a parent as well.

Yeah you dismissing my call to hold you to a higher standard and at the VERY least acknowledge these people, including a woman who was a damn great humanitarian speaks VOLUMES of your true motives. Women's rights? I think not. You are racist and sexist and I'm glad it has been established.

How could you be against late term abortions and call yourself pro-choice and FOR women's rights? There are more holes in your arguments than there are in a pound of sliced swiss cheese.

In a debate, paying attention can generally prevent the inadvertent humiliation of oneself demonstrated here.



"I view Jesus like I view Elvis. I love the guy but some of his fanclubs scare me"
Not once did I attack Christ or even God. I'm attacking the fanatics that follow him. If you paid attention you'd know that.

I am not anti-theistic. I am agnostic. I am, however, anti-fundamentalist. If you would kill (or die) for a belief that you can't even prove then something is wrong with you.



I'm not going to play the "which religion is better" game, especially if it is irrelevant to the debate.




Religion is responsible for more atrocities than I can fit on your computer screen. I assumed human beings being burned alive and/or tortured is a bit more atrocious than some people getting their cukaloos cut. [sarcasm]THAT MUST MEAN YOU'RE A SEXIST RACIST!!!!!!!!!!! [/sarcasm]



Again, I don't see how any of this is relevant. And even if it was, I doubt a 16 year old guy like me is "screwing" as many women as you think I am. Nice try though.



Is this supposed to be sarcastic or are you actually serious? Either way, keep on repeating this. Its quite entertaining.

Yes I am serious and plan on rporting your racist and sexist posts.

There is no humiliation on your part, you may in your blind naive mind believe that. Your age shows, trying to hide your ignorance in 3 and 4 syllable words only shines a brighter light on it. Try to remember that next time.

If you plan on debating and actually being good at it, you want to first address, dispute and then clarify any misconception perceived in your arguments. These are things you failed to do, instead you tried to use what I'm sure your peers overlooking your shoulder told you were "big words" because it looked better when you typed it up. It was shamelessly stupid.

Generalizations are an idiots best friend, there is a huge difference between most, many, a lot and ALL. When you lump everyone together you make an inaccurate assumption.

Instead of using the first post to clarify that you aren't against religion you used it to diminish and devalue the remarkable contributions made by people you yet have to learn much about. These people laid the groundwork fo many modern humanitarian efforts today and you completely dismissed all of them who shared in common being a minority in culture, race, ethnicity and in one case gender. You did not clarify this at all you instead tried to justify overlooking them by totally trash talking ALL religions, specifically Christianity. You then went on to say you were for women's rights but failed to mention the atrocities occuring blatantly TODAY against WOMEN ONLY but instead spoke on things that happened hundreds of years ago to mostly men by mostly Catholics. Your prejudice ran a muck and you had no way of covering it, any woman who DARES call herself an advocate of women's right with an ounce of intelligence saw right through that. I just happened to be the one who called you on it. Young or old, sexism and racism is hatred and evil pure and simple and that is what you spew.

Being pro-abortion for your own benefit doesn't support women's right, it advances your own ideaology.

But it doesn't surprise me that issues such as feale gential mutilation is "entertaining" to you, or that MLK Jr.'s assasination is "entertaining" to you or that al the things Ghandi and Mother Theresa worked so hard or are simply "entertaining" to you. Considering you've shown your true colors we can all only hope you don't get someone pregnant she wants to keep the child and you force your ideaology on her violently. You know, the way people like you who find such things "entertaining" would do.

SHow here where you acknowledged the effort sof MLK jr. Ghandi or Mother Theresa, you didn't.

Show here where I humiliated myself because when givent eh chance to clear it up instead of acknowledging the fact that MANY feminists backed MLK Jr and certainly Mother Theresa you say "Hitler did a few nice thigns too."


You can try to turn things any way you want to but the truth of the matter is you ca not debate and have not been debating you've been spouting a bunch of irrelevant BS, you have not yet directly addressed the contributions of those religious people I named or the fact that FGM happens NOW right NOW and is not a torture child of christianity. You have yet to addres the fact that FGM is significant because any woman suffering from it more than likely would never be allowed to have an abortion even though labor for her as a much higher mortality rate. But because that has little if anything at all to do with Christianity you ignored it.

Your ignorance shows because a person as young as you proclaimed to be would most likely not have had much working knowledge of feminism and women's rights as they relate not just domestically but internationally. Which of course you didn't or just chose to dismiss.




This last quote kills it, I speak on vast and widespread and you make an analogy using "few" in relation to Mother Theresa, Ghandi and MLK's humanitarian efforts.

That's because I don't need to. There are millions of wonderful people in the world, and one is not obligated to continuously venerate these do-gooders. It is equally absurd to make this about race.



This is about religion, not race. You are humiliating yourself by telling blatant lies and trying to make this a race issue when it is clearly not.



I acknowledged the 9/11 attacks (not christian). Like I said, religion has committed and will commit so many atrocities is is impossible to fit it into one post. It would be foolish to criticize me for missing a few.



You ask where you humiliated yourself? Right here. I was clearly comparing Hitler to religion. Not MLK, Ghandi, etc. If making this a race issue is the only way you feel you can make me look bad, then I have already won the debate.



If this isn't a generalization then I don't know what is.

My last sentence is a generalizations no different in my opinion than saying a 1st grader wouldn't be expected to have working knowldge of 6th grade math. Women's rights issues are very deep and complex issues that are much more than what mainstream media and public grade school covers.


I made this about race AFTER you dismissed my examples of great religious humanitarians who happened to be people of color. You then brought up Hitler who was not religious at all even though its been argued he was born to a Jewish mother. I didn't say that you had to venerate them, my point in bringing them up was in response to your assertion that ALL relgiious people were awful people. You attacked Christianity as a whole as a group that doesn't respect women's rights or human rights for that matter as given in your examples. Your exmaples are factual, I never doubted that but they are however factual history NOT what occurs at the present time. I gave more up to date examples with FGM and again that was dismissed by you as well.


What have I stated that was a blatant lie? You have NOT acknowledged the people I've asked you to acknowledge you have NOT given FGM its credence as a horrible atrocity against women occuring NOW and not the fault of Christianity. I took what you said to be offensive, sexism and racism and your response was "you're humiliating yourself."

I didn't. The fact that in your head I am humiliating myself by calling you out while you continue to refuse to even address the issue makes you no better than Rush Limbaugh and his rantings when he's called out and dances around the issue. I even stated that "either you're just beinf facetious or.." before I called you out, you had the chance THEN to say something and you didn't yet I am the one not paying attention?

Wrong.

I did NOT dismiss them on the basis of race.



"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

-Adolf Hitler

Hitler grounded his hatred for jews in religious belief, namely Christianity.



You misinterpreted. I am only criticizing religion and the acts that have been committed in its name. Not the people.




An atrocity is an atrocity, no matter if it was committed 100 years ago or yesterday.



I don't have time right now for specific examples, however you repeatedly and falsely accused me of being a racist and sexist, and then proceeded to intentionally misrepresent my arguments while personally attacking me.



I calls em like I sees em.




If you haven't noticed by now, I'm obviously not interested in acknowledging who you want me to acknowledge. I came here to debate the moral issue of abortion, not be guilted into praising people you want me to praise. This isn't about the horror of FGM or prominent humanitarian figures. This is about me not giving in to a bully. You can call me whatever names you want, but I'm not going to give in. I said it before and I'll say it again, I came here to debate abortion. If that's too much for you, then you're in the wrong place.