Then you are probably glad you have the choice for medical intervention.

I think that these women actually believe they are protecting their babies from the threat of outside intervention by birthing alone at home.

It's a woman's right.

Why should anyone be told where they should give birth? (unless there's problems with the mother or the baby, obviously)

I know this seems like a silly comparison, but when my cat was having kittens she was walking all round the house looking for a place to give birth. She just did not want to do it in the nice cosy box we'd set up for her. Animals choose how & where they give birth & that's all we are.. animals.

Exactly.
your cat has no "rules of society" ingrained on her as to how/where she was to give birth so she went with her instincts instead.

I guess that is where we differ.. I do not think that humans are or ever were animals. I also value human life much more then i do a kittens. (honestly im not trying to sound like a jerk either)
My bottom line is this, i think a free birth should be allowed with the exception of having a medically trained person nearby in case of emergency.

I'm gonna have my baby under my dresser and clean it with my tongue!!



sorry. i just got a really funny visual when someone said that. reminded me of my cat having her babies behind the chest of drawers in my bedroom.

I see the point you were making though, that we have instincts and that it is a natural process. I think women should have a choice as well but I think women should take the responsibility of being well informed. One way in which we differ from animals is that we walk upright and that has always posed a problem while giving birth. Our brains and therefore heads, are also larger than animals compared to our bodies, so that coupled with our narrower pelvis makes for a more difficult labour and birth. Some domesticated animals have help giving birth as well, like cows when they are calving. My sisters dog almost died having her puppies cuz one got stuck.

Anyway, it just goes to show there are no easy answers to these questions. I'm sure the women who make that decision put a lot of thought into it. I personally wouldn't do it, unless maybe it was my 10th kid or something.

well we are mammals so we are scientifically animals.

but my point is why should anyone be allowed to say that a woman must have a medically trained person nearby.

It isn't coincidence that the human race has survived this long without medical intervention.

Yes, that's your opinion and that's fine if it's for yourself.
But in this case it affects the lives of other women and that isn't fair at all.

I agree that it would be *wise* to have a trained person nearby. I don't dispute that. But to make it illegal to not have a trained person is not good.

That means people who give birth before it is expected (you know - those women who don't think labor will go so quick and they end up giving birth on the kitchen floor, hubby running after some towels, etc) - that becomes illegal.

I think the problem here is the difference between what people think is *wise* and what rights anyone has to impinge on another persons privacy.

By making it illegal they make it more dangerous.
An educated woman, with hubby/mom/sister on hand, and a midwife on standby if things go wrong isn't at all selfish or dangerous.
She is actually freeing up space in hospital/birthing centre for other women who may need it more than her.

Can we not agree that while it is not neccessarily wise (for all people) - it is her rights to birth where/with whom she pleases?

do you really think that they'd do something to the parents if they didn't get to the hospital in time? (no this is a serious question, im really asking lol)

it doesn't make sense to me, i don't see how they could... it's not like it's something you can control exactly! if you go to te hospital and you live like an hour away and you get sent home so you stay home until you think its absolutely necessary to go in and then you don't make it in time... and you gve birth in your car.. could they seriously do something to you for that? i wouldn't think so.. but you said it'd be illegal so idk.

as long as the baby's best interest is at heart yes she has the right. You talk of an educated women with family near by, this is not the situation that concerns me. What does concern me is the 16 year old who just doesn't want to tell mom and dad. or the person who wont take their child to a hospital when things go wrong because they think it is detrimental to their child's health which results in an infants death. I just read an article about a vegan couple who birthed at home in the bathtub and then wouldnt take their baby to the hospital when she only weighed 3 lbs and was malnurished and had a whooping cough. It is these people who concern me. I didnt say they should make this process illegal because there are those emergency times when a woman has no other choice. Im just saying we should provide the centers that help with this choice and provide the education/help that would aid in this type of birth.


edited to add** Im not going to go into my views on evolution and mankind because it is completely Irrelevant to this topic and i know will get this post locked.

That is such a huge can of worms when you start talking about how you make people act responsibly while not invading their own rights. There are mothers out there who are using crack and heroin while they are pregnant. There was one case here in canada that went to the supreme court where a woman who was sniffing throughout her pregnancy was challenging the law to do anything to her. the supreme court upheld her right to keep sniffing during her pregnancy because it was her body and her choice. Well, my mom teaches in the school where that boy went to school and he has a lot of major problems and basically has very little hope of making anything out of his life because he has so many learning and emotional issues. I think he is now in a special school for FAS kids. And he has younger siblings!! his mother went on to have more kids after him.

Sorry this is a big tangent, but really, when you think about it, a woman making a personal choice about how she births is not on the same level as some of the stuff that goes on out there.

Everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment. The sad thing about the couple whose baby died of malnourishment is that they got life in prison for that.

I think in that case they found that they were just using the veganism as an excuse. The article i read gave the impression that they were actually really negligent and it hinted around that the authorities thought that they maybe didn't want the baby to survive and that the veganism was just their legal defense. I don't know where i read that article, it was a couple of days ago, but that's the impression it left me with anyway.

there baby died probably a very painful death from not being properly taken care of and you say its unfair they got life in prison?
Thats like saying we shouldnt punish those who give birth and throw there baby in a dumpster.

i think i read that the baby weighed 3.5 pounds at 6 weeks.

how could they not know something was wrong?

I think it is a good idea in some states where they have an amnesty or whatever if you want to give up your baby. All you have to do is go to one of those centres and hand the baby over and walk away. Of course they offer help to the women but if they just want to walk away they can. It's not the perfect situation but it sure beats hiding your baby and leaving it in a dumpster. Some people are just messed up and shouldn't be having children, but for some people it's too easy to conceive and having an alternative that gives the baby a chance is a good idea. I think this is a little off topic but oh well.

*edited*not 'having it in a dumpster' lol

I think if a mother wants to have her baby in her own home she should have the right to do so. Hospitals are not always the cleanest places to be. I would hope that she would have the good sense to call 911 if something were to go wrong. I live in an area where there are many women who choose to do it at home. Personally, .I think they are crazy.

That was the point of the article. That a woman who has educated herself and has hubby/mom/sister nearby is breaking the law because those people or person are/is not qualified.

I completely agree.
But this isn't what the article was talking about.

again I agree.
But this isn't what the article was talking about.

and again I agree that it is sad that things like this can happen when help is available.

You didn't but the article *did*.
That is what got me.
The article stated that if a woman births at home alone that is "legal", yet if she has hubby/mom/sister with her that is "Illegal" because that person is unqualified.

absolutely.
A woman who is educated in what to expect, who's birthing partner is also educated in what to expect and chooses to birth at home is making an effort for herself and her child.
And centres to educate people in this practise would definately be a good idea, as would "standby/oncall" midwives.

I think it's a woman's right to decide how she wants to give birth. Whatever she's comfortable with she should do. Now me, that wouldn't be my choice at all. Especially not after the time I had giving birth to Chu. I had contractions on top of contractions with no break in between because he was so large. Then he was stuck in the birth canal for what felt like forever and he had shoulder dysplasia.

Totally irrelevant but if I ever have another then I'm definitely going to a hospital where they let you eat. Gah, I thought that it was horrible that they wouldn't let me eat. It's horrible being in labor for damn near 15 hours without having eaten anything in 24 hours.