*shudder* unfortunately, I know as much as anyone else on these forums how capable societies are of being close-minded pricks. I could only hope than in a nation where abortion is already legal, that the government would not remove pre-existing rights.

What I would like to know is, what exactly is supposed to become of all of these babies once they're born? I'm not sure how many abortions were performed in 2006 (and .I'm really not feeling up to .googling it), but assuming every one of those newborns was unwanted... how would that affect our adoption and foster care systems? How would it affect the older children still waiting for families?

And why does pro-life not seem to care about the pregnant woman's rights and emotions? The general attitude .I've seen has been "too bad, so sad, learn to use a condom next time". Why does her body become less valuable than what's inside of it, and why is that okay?

You ask great questions....and quite honestly....I don't have all the answers, but I do question what group of pl'rs you have knowledge of. I personally along with different pl groups and agencies have helped many young women who have decided to keep their babies instead of abort. In the area that I live in.....there has been a rather large home that was donated specifically for women who chose to keep their babies. They have a place to stay while pregnant, they are set up with excellent pre-natal care, education, and help finding a job. If they choose to give the baby up for adoption....they are put in touch with an agency that allows them to be as hands on or off as they want to be in finding a home for their child. If they choose to keep the baby....they are allowed to stay in the home for six months following delivery....in which staff helps them to continue education or find work(if necessary), and they are given help finding a place to live, transportation, and any other services they might need. So you see....we don't just say...."keep your baby and deal with it"....we say...."if you choose to keep your baby....we will help in any way we can,".......and we do. So far since January.....I have helped out with 28 baby showers......and helped 7 girls give their baby's up for adoption. We have found housing for 30 of those girls(the others already had a place to go), we had 6 of the girls who needed transportion and through personal donations, and a couple of dealership donations....all 6 were supplied with vehicles. Eight of the girls were helped to get GED's....3 of which were helped to get PEL grants to go onto college.....and 16 were placed in jobs....all making more than minimum wage. So....I don't know about where your from.....but around here.....pl put's their money where ttheir mouth is.

Thank you for the reply, and let me first tell you that I have a great level of respect for the works that you do. I truly mean that.

But unfortunately, that doesn't really answer my concerns. If abortion were made illegal and the hundreds of women seeking abortions in this country were forced to either adopt the child out or keep it, how would that affect society? How would it affect the thousands of children already in the system? How do we just assume that life, no matter how it plays out, is better than death? How do we make sure that these babies don't fall through the cracks? Or that other foster children don't fall through the cracks because of the surge of newborn babies just ripe and waiting?

And again, I must ask. Why is a woman's body worth less than the tiny life inside of it? Why are her discomforts, desires, and plans less worthy in pro-life's eyes? Because at the end of the day, that is pro-life's argument: that a woman does not have the right to remove a z/e/f from her body, because the z/e/f is precious. The woman should endure the pregnancy despite her wishes.

Again I say....I don't have all the answers....and your concerns are definitely worthy concerns. From my experience....many children would be adopted, although this could pose a problem for older children in the system and children with disabilites. Fortunately more and more there are people who are reaching out to these special children....but saddly....regardless of abortion laws....there will always be children and adults that fall through the cracks. Our society is set up as a "me" society in which we tend to look after ourselves and forget about everyone else. It is this mentality that has brought us to the place where society finds it very easy to allow people in our own country to go without food, shelter, clothes, etc. We don't take good care of our elderly, our sick, disabled, etc. We focus on ourselves and because of that....we are have many out there who need help and don't get it because as a whole....we are extremely apathetic.

As far as a womans life/body being deemed less than the tiny life/body inside her.....that just isn't it. Her life should not be deemed less....but it also should not be deemed greater. They are both human lives and they should both be deemed as equally important. Both lives(mother and child) are created with purpose....and neither should be seen as disposable.

Consider this when murdering a child.
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Be carefull of choices you make in this life. There will be a day to answer for it.

But you see, from the pro-life perspective, it is. In their eyes, the woman should not be given the choice to abort. She should continue her pregnancy because the z/e/f's life should not be terminated. That means, she should not have a say over what happens with her body. It means, her not wanting to continue her pregnancy and go through a labor and delivery is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is bringing the pregnancy full-term and deliverying a healthy baby.

I'm not saying that pro-life doesn't care about the mother. But they seem to favor the z/e/f more. Is it not pro-life that proclaims that the z/e/f is "innocent"? That it has a "right to live"? Even if a woman is raped, the z/e/f should not be punished for that by having its life terminated?

Pro-life doesn't see pregnancy as a punishment. They see it as a necessary thing a woman must endure for the greater good: the baby. Or maybe some do see it as a punishment - this is where we get the lovely logic of "you knew what could happen, now step up and take responsibility" and "if you didn't want a baby, you should have kept your legs closed".

Either way, pro-life doesn't seem to sympathize with a woman who truly does not want to be pregnant. They seem to want to talk her into keeping her baby, or keeping the pregnancy and giving the baby up for adoption. They beg her not to "kill her baby" and tell her how innocent her child is, and how it deserves a chance. They tell her that pregnancy is a small price to pay. They ask her to sacrifice her body and put her life at risk (make no mistake - pregnancy, labor and delivery can be dangerous) and condemn her if she decides not to.

I can't help but think that the sympathy is more for the z/e/f, so innocent of everything, never having asked to be created, simply trying to survive... and not for the woman... the breathing, self-aware, functioning woman whose life could potentially be changed one way or another by this decision.

We as pro-choice believe that she should have the right to choose. If she decides on her own to proceed with the pregnancy, we will support her 100%. If she decides to abort, we will not attempt to punish her or tell her she is a bad person. We won't call her a killer and turn our backs on her. We will simply help her find peace without judgment.

I'm not sure that it's possible to hold both the mother and the z/e/f in equal standing. In cases where the child is not wanted, there is a clear conflict of interest. That's where the debate lies. That's why pro-life and pro-choice are always at arms and always locked in discussion and argument.

But I do hope .I've given you a bit of insight into the pro-choice view. Not from a callous person who thinks abortion is not a big deal, but from a mother who simply believes in freedom and choice. I think you're very well spoken and it's been a pleasure debating with you. I hope you feel the same way.

I'm off to bed.

Sorry, but you will not get her peace without judgement.
The of can a woman have have a abortion for her health. Well less than a small portion of people get an abortion for true life threatening reasons.
I am sorry if a woman is raped or otherwise but the baby had no part in this act. So it is not the baby who should be excecuted.

Not just the people who have abortions have reasons to worry but those who aprove of such things.

Ro 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

.I'm not .God, and so I won't be passing judgment on her. And she might not be .Christian, so I would have no right to throw bible verses at her.

You're obviously not that sorry for a woman who was raped, because you expect her to be further traumatized by carrying a pregnancy that came about from a rape (painful reminder) and going through labor and birth, and possibly the further pain of giving her child up for adoption and wondering what became of him or her.

I would feel physically sick telling a woman that was raped that she's headed straight to .hell if she terminates her pregnancy. You should be ashamed of yourself.

This really is not a debate about religion, and since not all people in the .U.S. are .Christian, your argument holds no weight. Here in .America, we get to choose our own religion. Each of us has something to face at the end of our lives, and quite frankly, I don't know why you want to see me reach heaven if I am such a horrible person anyway. Does the bible not say "Judge Not"?

Who has the priority?

The woman who will give birth or the uninvolved strangers who believe she should?




I believe you will be hard pressed to find someone who condones mudrering a child.
Incidentally, I also believe you will be hard pressed to find someone who condones the book of revelations.

I will absolutely not consider anything from the bible when debating abortion.

I am not christian, so please don't use your religion as part of as a scientific debate, thank you. I don't use mine.

Lets use the whole sentence not just the part we like on judge not.

Mathew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
If I have an abortion I hope he does judge me in the same manner.

or

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Yet there is mercy for all who will believe.

Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, 22 a that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Your friend is the one that tells you the truth.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


Christ's Blessings

I will ignore every post containing bible quotes. I do not force my religion on you and I would appreciate you not forcing your religion on me.

1Pe 1:24 For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1Pe 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever.”

I don't believe in god. nothing "he" is or does lasts forever in my mind, because he doesn't exist at all.

1co 1:27 but god chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; god chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1co 1:28 he chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not —to nullify the things that are,
1co 1:29 so that no one may boast before him.

Mt 6:33 but seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Christ's blessings

[Christianity is a cult.]

Oh, hey guys, on campus of the university I go to this week there was a group of young adults (who were not students) preaching the most conservative of christianity to anyone who would listen.

Wearing their suspenders and long skirts, they shouted out about the evils of the vile homosexuals, how women's place is in the home, how we sinners are all going to hell, how one husband felt that it was his duty to "correct" his wife "by force" if she disobeyed him; et cetera, et cetera.

Quite a crowd gathered, and they were heckling them mercilessly. Campus security was present.

Some people don't want them on campus. I say let 'em have their time. They show their true colors.
Also, I was wondering if they could be charged with public nuisance behavior, or maybe hate crimes. I mean, they were really delving deep into hatred for homosexuals. How is this not a hate crime?

It sounds like the same group or a similar group that came to my campus, you've heard my story right? About how they did it on the day of silence? Turns out they didn't do it on purpose, but in an article writted by the man, he seemed proud he was able to stop all over homosexual rights.

I am going to continue to refrain from even telling this new person what my beliefs are, and I am going to maintain also that I don't really care what he or she is saying. Until they can come up with a solid, real life (aka scientific) reason against abortion, I don't care.

Men should NEVER beat or hit there wives.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

I am sure you hate Christians.
Jn 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

As for homosexuals no one should beat them either. However!
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? o Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

You will no the last days are near.
Ro 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Ro 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
Ro 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, homicide, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Ro 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
Ro 1:31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Ro 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

As for a reason against abortion. You know it in your own heart.
SIX: 'You shall not kill.'

Christ's Blessings