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Q: Mps Prepare For Abortion Battle
asked by: diamond splinter on May 7th, 2007
Active User, very eHealthy
A parliamentary battle to cut the time limit on abortions from its current level of 24 weeks is being prepared by MPs.


New technology has shed light on early foetal development
Campaigners plan to "hijack" the Government's forthcoming changes to the law on fertilisation and embryology to stage what would be the first full-scale Commons vote on lowering the legal limit for 17 years.

A leaked memo from Caroline Flint, the public health minister, has revealed that ministers are preparing to be confronted with the incendiary move.

In a letter to Tony Blair, John Prescott and Sir Gus O'Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary, dated May 3, Miss Flint sets out her proposals to publish her draft Human Tissue and Embryos Bill.

But she admits: "There is a possibility that some members may wish to use the opportunity presented by the draft Bill to discuss wider issues dealt with by the original legislation... and related topics of interest, notably abortion (under the Abortion Act 1967).

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"Provisional advice from the House authorities suggests that these topics could not simply be ruled out as a matter of scope."

Campaigners for a change to the abortion limit seized on Ms Flint's admission and vowed to begin a full-scale campaign for a Commons vote, which by tradition would see MPs deciding according to their conscience and not having to follow party orders.

Recent medical advances have led increasingly to the survival of babies born before 24 weeks, leading to claims that the limit should be cut to 21 or 20 weeks.

Ann Widdecombe, the Conservative MP and former Home Office minister, called the current rules "lunatic" and vowed: "We will not let this opportunity be missed. We will go for it and we will go hard and fast on it. I think it would be a major campaign and I would absolutely be there."

Another Tory, Ann Winterton, said: "What we want to see is a wide-ranging debate, because science has changed dramatically. Those images of the child 'walking' in the womb changed everything significantly. I don't believe in abortion for social reasons."

Michael Howard, the former Tory leader, whose call for a cut in the limit raised abortion as a general election issue in 2005, said: "I haven't changed my views, I do believe the limits should be reduced to 20 weeks and I would vote for that."

Campaigners will push to amend the Government's Bill to include a section on abortion, which would then be voted on. Whether such an amendment was allowed would be up to the Speaker, Michael Martin.

The last time a full Commons debate on the issue was held was in 1990, when the current level of 24 weeks was decided.

The images referred to by Ann Winterton were of a 12-week-old foetus stretching, kicking and apparently "walking" in its mother's womb, vividly illustrating the development and behaviour of the unborn child in the earliest stages of life.

The scans published three years ago by Professor Stuart Campbell, the obstetrician and ultrasound pioneer, reignited debate about the rights of foetuses, with pro-life campaigners arguing that even the smallest were far more advanced than scientists had realised.

In particular, debate focused on whether late abortions were being carried out on some foetuses which might have survived outside the womb.

Last year, more than 150 MPs signed an early-day motion calling for the Government to set up a committee to examine the scientific, medical and social changes relating to abortion, only for it to be rejected.

As those MPs prepare to debate the matter, a second image may also concern them. That is the picture of Amillia Taylor, the world's smallest surviving baby, who weighed less than 10 ounces and measured nine and a half inches when she was born in Florida last October, at less than 22 weeks.

Figures show that more than 1,200 babies are aborted in Britain each year between 22 and 24 weeks. Last week, a survey of more than 300 GPs by Pulse magazine found that more than half thought the limit should be reduced. One in five believe that it should be banned completely.

Nonetheless, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, along with the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing strongly oppose any reduction in the time limits.

Michaela Aston, of the charity Life, said: "We would welcome any review of abortion which would save unborn lives and safeguard women's health. We want to see a substantial reduction in the time limit, but what we don't want to see is any kind of liberalisation of laws for early abortion, such as abortion on demand, or limiting consent to one doctor."

Dr Ellie Lee, one of the authors of research last month on the reasons why women have late abortions, said many did not realise they were pregnant, especially if bleeding continued during their pregnancy or if they were taking the contraceptive pill.
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Moo
replied on May 7th, 2007
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I personally have no problem with the current 24week time limit considering most 'social' abortions are performed before the 13th week (with over half of all abortions being before 10weeks).

Women aborting on foetal handicap or maternal health would still be able to choose abortion at any stage so if they wish to reduce the time limit to 20weeks or so then I don't have any issue with that either.
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Kypros
replied on May 7th, 2007
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I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.
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Jincks013
replied on May 8th, 2007
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Though I personally do not support post viability elective abortion I am not so arrogant as to force others to my will to satisfy my own ego. I would not do it but that doesn't mean I won't support someone elses choice to do so.
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Tylanas
replied on May 8th, 2007
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Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


Kypros, your version of pro-choice is not the only right form of pro-choice. Stop being so arrogant as to think that your version is the absolute right form. You're wrong. If pro-choice is about choice, then we have the choice to be against killing a viable fetus frivolously.
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Kypros
replied on May 8th, 2007
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Eiri wrote:
Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


Kypros, your version of pro-choice is not the only right form of pro-choice. Stop being so arrogant as to think that your version is the absolute right form. You're wrong. If pro-choice is about choice, then we have the choice to be against killing a viable fetus frivolously.

It is not my version of pro-choice; it's what pro-choice is! It's the support of a person's right to control their body, whether or not you disagree with the actual action. If you advocate a reduction in the time limit in which a woman is allowed to terminate, you are not acting in a pro-choice way; I'm sorry, but you only have to grasp the mildest understanding of the term 'pro-choice' to realise this.

Of course people have the right to choose against abortion - I myself would be in a very bad situation to consider it (that's my choice). You're saying it in a way that suggests that I disagree with the choice and believe all women should abort frivolously. Methinks you are being arrogant here. You are making excuses to 'fit' your own beliefs in as pro-choice; I don't deny that you are pro-choice, but some of your views are not (your refusal to support late-term social abortions legally). I'd rather you just face what your own morals are by definition before you call me arrogant.
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Tylanas
replied on May 8th, 2007
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Kypros wrote:
Eiri wrote:
Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


Kypros, your version of pro-choice is not the only right form of pro-choice. Stop being so arrogant as to think that your version is the absolute right form. You're wrong. If pro-choice is about choice, then we have the choice to be against killing a viable fetus frivolously.


It is not my version of pro-choice; it's what pro-choice is!


Yes, it is your "version". But for some reason, you think that just because it's the word "choice" that there cannot be sensibilities involved.

Quote:
It's the support of a person's right to control their body, whether or not you disagree with the actual action. If you advocate a reduction in the time limit in which a woman is allowed to terminate, you are not acting in a pro-choice way; I'm sorry, but you only have to grasp the mildest understanding of the term 'pro-choice' to realise this.


I'm not for reducing the time limit.

However, the fact that you are capable of ignoring basic biology frightens me almost as much as pro-lifers. Let's take stock of what you believe:

Is the zef alive? (y/n)
Is abortion killing? (y/n)
Do you believe that fetuses become viable at some point? (y/n)

What does viability mean to you? In my opinion, it means the fetus has almost the same amount of rights as a born baby. If it is killed through guns or violence, it counts as murder. It should not be aborted unless there is deformations of danger to the mother or other complications.

I feel you do have to look into "why?" for every single case of late-term abortion. I do not believe in blind rulings, of blanketed terms.

Quote:
[...]your refusal to support late-term social abortions legally)[...]


That's an out-right lie.

I do support them... but there has to be a reason. I don't care if the reason is "I couldn't get money until now". Fine, good enough for me.
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Birch
replied on May 8th, 2007
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Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


I think this sentence says it extremely well-and I just may swing back over to prochoice regardless of gestation time because of this concept.

I will do some thinking...
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Kypros
replied on May 8th, 2007
Experienced User
Eiri wrote:
Kypros wrote:
Eiri wrote:
Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


Kypros, your version of pro-choice is not the only right form of pro-choice. Stop being so arrogant as to think that your version is the absolute right form. You're wrong. If pro-choice is about choice, then we have the choice to be against killing a viable fetus frivolously.


It is not my version of pro-choice; it's what pro-choice is!


Yes, it is your "version". But for some reason, you think that just because it's the word "choice" that there cannot be sensibilities involved.

Quote:
It's the support of a person's right to control their body, whether or not you disagree with the actual action. If you advocate a reduction in the time limit in which a woman is allowed to terminate, you are not acting in a pro-choice way; I'm sorry, but you only have to grasp the mildest understanding of the term 'pro-choice' to realise this.


I'm not for reducing the time limit.

However, the fact that you are capable of ignoring basic biology frightens me almost as much as pro-lifers. Let's take stock of what you believe:

Is the zef alive? (y/n)
Is abortion killing? (y/n)
Do you believe that fetuses become viable at some point? (y/n)

I answer yes to all three questions. I think they are facts, not opinions.

I do not "ignore basic biology" in the slightest! I know all about viability, but it doesn't change my view that a legal woman with rights and recognition as a person should have more rights than a developed foetus which is not yet born, therefore per se not a legal person with rights

Eiri wrote:
What does viability mean to you? In my opinion, it means the fetus has almost the same amount of rights as a born baby. If it is killed through guns or violence, it counts as murder. It should not be aborted unless there is deformations of danger to the mother or other complications.

Well, there you go, you said it yourself: "...it means the foetus has almost the same rights as a born baby". "Almost the same" and "the same" are not... the same! In my opinion, viability is another stage of pregnancy, just as the development of limbs, eyelashes etc. and the foetus's ability to open its eyes. Now, I would consider that basic biology.

Eiri wrote:
I feel you do have to look into "why?" for every single case of late-term abortion. I do not believe in blind rulings, of blanketed terms.

Why should this be specially applied to late-term foetuses and not early-term ones, too?

Eiri wrote:
Quote:
[...]your refusal to support late-term social abortions legally)[...]


That's an out-right lie.

An outright mistake. I apologise.

Eiri wrote:
I do support them... but there has to be a reason. I don't care if the reason is "I couldn't get money until now". Fine, good enough for me.

Why does there have to be a reason for late-term abortions but not early-term? They are still the same act. All foetuses, regardless of gestational age, are not legally-recognised persons and are still parasitic in nature. These are some of the main factors of why I don't oppose late-term abortions. Also, I'm and individualist who believes that women's rights to their own bodies shouldn't be restricted. Accessing their own bodies in whichever way they choose does not infringe on the rights of any other person.

Additionally, I think you're being quite hypocritical: you say that you regard the abortion of a late-term foetus as murder since you consider the foetus to be a person, but you still agree with abortion at this stage for economical or foetal health/deformity reasons, for example. With this logic, I should have the right to murder my 2-year old because it is severely deformed and I can't afford to pay for him/her.

My outstanding message is: an abortion is an abortion is an abortion. The same act, whatever the gestation, whatever the method used to do it. The body still belongs to the women however old her foetus is. The foetus doesn't have any rights until birth. Women (legally) should be allowed to abort as they wish. Thus, I conclude that it is only logical to back late-term abortions (for any reasons). I'm sorry but abortion is not a circumstancial issue at all, as many choose to believe. A woman should not be refused the right to terminate because of x reason (or lack of a reason, rather) but not for y reason - still the same act, the same outcome for the foetus, the same foetus that has no rights.

Kypros.
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Tylanas
replied on May 8th, 2007
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So the bottom line is that you would approve of the murder of a fetus one day before its due date just because the mother "felt" like doing it.
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Kypros
replied on May 10th, 2007
Experienced User
Birch wrote:
Kypros wrote:
I feel that any reduction on the time limit is absolutely disgusting (naturally as a pro-choicer); Moo, I consider your content with a legal reduction to be quite un-pro-choice-like. If you personally disagree with late-term abortion, then that's fine; if you support a legal reduction, then you are not acting in a true pro-choice way and are enforcing your own views regarding the issue on all other women. One's views on the abortion debate are constructed by one's own personal morals, therefore the law must be open for all women to be allowed to follow their morals, i.e. women who don't agree with abortions after 20 weeks gestation won't have one after 20 weeks gestation, whereas other women who don't have a problem with terminating after that time are equally permitted to abide by their 'laws'.

Kypros.


I think this sentence says it extremely well-and I just may swing back over to prochoice regardless of gestation time because of this concept.

I will do some thinking...


Yes, I don't care what anybody says but any pro-choicer who disagrees with the legal right to have an abortion, regardless of the reasons and gestational period, is a complete hyprocrite. Being opposed to late-term abortions on a moral basis is fine with me, but enforcing your own beliefs as a law that would restrict women to make their choices is terrible. Just as many pro-choice advocates say: "If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one," I say: "If you don't agree with late-term abortion, then don't have one".

Eiri wrote:
So the bottom line is that you would approve of the homicide of a fetus...

I'm going to halt you right there: foetuses cannot be murdered. But seeing as you consider late-term foetuses to be people (and you approve of late-term abortions for non-social reasons), the bottom line is you believe that 'people' should be murdered as their parents don't want to raise them due to their serious deformities and lack of good income. I'm sorry, but by your beliefs (that late-term foetuses are people who should be allowed to be killed for (by your own definition) 'good' reasons), a mother should be allowed to kill her one-year old (a baby and person, just as a late-term foetus apparently is) under the same circumstances. Are you getting to see now why I think abortion is a one-way street?

Eiri wrote:
... one day before its due date just because the mother "felt" like doing it.

Well, I don't disagree with it morally, because, on an ethical basis, I believe abortion is justified by the fact that foetuses are rightless non-person parasites and women are individual human beings with rights. Period. Anybody who classes themselves as an abortion proponent must agree with it. The statement is not inflected for gestational time either. However, on the one (negative) hand, I believe any female who would abort at any time in the pregnancy simply as she felt like it is stupid and extremely careless. Doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right to remove an invader of their uterus though, does it? Let it be their careless act to deal with themselves. It isn't your, or anybody else's womb. And no legal person is being murdered so there is absolutely no reason why it should be illegal.

Kypros (I wasn't expecting us to fall back into this debate Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Laughing. Still, gets it going, doesn't it?)
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Tylanas
replied on May 10th, 2007
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I'll put it in your words.

Would you approve of killing a fetus the day before it is due to be born, just because the mother "feels" like it?

I've got to say... What about birth makes the baby so special? I understand the concept of viability. The only thing birth does is disconnect the fetus fromt he mother. Yes, it's still "connected" to the mother until birth. But at that stage, an abortion would involve induced labor anyway. So why couldn't the mother not kill it and give it up for adoption? Younger fetuses than that survive. She has to give birth to it one way or another.

Just as I do not approve of killing a dog just because you don't want it as a pet anymore, I do not approve of killing fetuses that are past viability unless there is a good reason. I do approve of killing a pet if it is in pain. You see how it is always a grey issue? it's all circumstantial!!!!!

Fetal age is an issue, and I think anyone who ignores this is blind to a huge part of the abortion debate.
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Kypros
replied on May 12th, 2007
Experienced User
Eiri wrote:
I'll put it in your words.

Would you approve of killing a fetus the day before it is due to be born, just because the mother "feels" like it?

I agree that she has the right to do so, although she would be a pretty careless so-and-so if she did it simply because she felt like it. Still her body, still her choice, however wrong the decision may be.

Eiri wrote:
I've got to say... What about birth makes the baby so special?

You must be missing one of the - if not the - most important parts of the abortion debate. Birth is special because the foetus becomes a person; it ceases to be a parasite; it is no longer invading the body of another person; it is now granted rights as a fully fledged human being. They are what make birth so special.

Eiri wrote:
I understand the concept of viability.

Good, so do I.

Eiri wrote:
The only thing birth does is disconnect the fetus fromt he mother.

If you have believed this during your whole involvement in the abortion debate then what an ignorant individual you have been! Birth results in the foetus becoming a person; ceasing to be a parasite; no longer being an invador in the body of another person; it now being granted rights as a fully fledged human being.

Eiri wrote:
Yes, it's still "connected" to the mother until birth. But at that stage, an abortion would involve induced labor anyway. So why couldn't the mother not kill it and give it up for adoption?

Because she is not obliged to give up her baby for adoption and she most likely doesn't want to! Being in a later gestation doesn't mean that adoption is preferred. That is an extremely ignorant remark. There is no difference between making that suggestion about an early-term foetus and a late-term one: both would cope better with having a dead foetus rather than a living one. The reason the mother couldn't kill it and give it up for adoption is that she doesn't want to give up her baby for adoption. I can't speak for all, but I feel that adoption would be much harder to cope with than abortion. Ask Cari why she would choose abortion every time and then see if you feel any different. The process of the late-term abortion ending in birth is irrelevant - an abortion is an abortion is an abortion.

Eiri wrote:
Younger fetuses than that survive. She has to give birth to it one way or another.

Yeah, and? Exactly my point, she has to give birth to it one way or another so she can decide whether she wants this to come after an abortion or what she would consider an emotionally-draining decision to have it adopted.

Eiri wrote:
Just as I do not approve of killing a dog just because you don't want it as a pet anymore, I do not approve of killing fetuses that are past viability unless there is a good reason.

Dogs are not foetuses; also dogs are not parasitic: they are born. Again, you are being irrelevant. At least compare foetuses with something that is in another living thing's body.

Eiri wrote:
I do approve of killing a pet if it is in pain. You see how it is always a grey issue? it's all circumstantial!!!!!

No, I don't actually. One more time you are being irrelevant: killing dogs in pain and aborting parasitic entities are totally different (not in the animal-human way), largely as dogs are born and foetuses are not.

Some people don't approve of killing pets that are in pain. You do. I do. These are personal morals and I definitely believe that personal morals must never, ever ever ever be enforced as a law. The law must be open in such cases for people to come to their own morals: if you don't agree with abortions, don't have one; if you don't agree with late-term abortions, don't have one".

Eiri wrote:
Fetal age is an issue, and I think anyone who ignores this is blind to a huge part of the abortion debate.

I agree with the bit I underlined; however I did not ignore - and have never ignored - foetal age when it comes to the abortion debate. I've studied it and come to the conclusion (that i chose because I consider it to be right) that it is irrelevant to [b]every woman's right to enforce her own morals upon her own body[/u].

Kypros.
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Birch
replied on May 12th, 2007
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I think I like Kypros' stance and am starting to agree with it. The law should be open so that my morals do not become what someone else is legally bound to do.

Someone else will live with whatever decision she makes, not me, so my morals have no place influencing individuals private decisions.

Man, that's a tough position.
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Kypros
replied on May 12th, 2007
Experienced User
Birch wrote:
Man, that's a tough position.

Yes, perhaps, but it gives the people the basic freedom they need Very Happy. I am known to be very contraversial in some of my opinions but I don't care - I feel that they are right morally (in the sense that the citizens can act how they wish without infringing on others' rights).

I admit, late-term abortions can be harder emotionally, physically, and ethically, but I would be much more uncomfortable placing my beliefs on women who want to terminate in such a position. Even if you dislike late-term abortions - or abortions in general - you cannot ignore the fact that personhood is developed at birth and all fowtuses are rightless invaders of their mother's womb. That's all I need to take into consideration to make me an advocate of all aspects of personal body control because, at the end of the day, amongst all the other nasty things, that is what every abortion is.

Kypros.
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Birch
replied on May 12th, 2007
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Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Man, that's a tough position.

Yes, perhaps, but it gives the people the basic freedom they need Very Happy. I am known to be very contraversial in some of my opinions but I don't care - I feel that they are right morally (in the sense that the citizens can act how they wish without infringing on others' rights).

I admit, late-term abortions can be harder emotionally, physically, and ethically, but I would be much more uncomfortable placing my beliefs on women who want to terminate in such a position. Even if you dislike late-term abortions - or abortions in general - you cannot ignore the fact that personhood is developed at birth and all fowtuses are rightless invaders of their mother's womb. That's all I need to take into consideration to make me an advocate of all aspects of personal body control because, at the end of the day, amongst all the other nasty things, that is what every abortion is.

Kypros.


Yes, I can understand what you are saying. It sounds harsh, but it is factually true and I appreciate it as so.

I'm also trying to tie it in together with other concepts that inevitably come up. Such as drug use-one should be able to make autonomous decisions about one's own body, but how far does it go? Using addictive, body destroying drugs such as crack and heroin negatively effect the person as well as family, friends, and society.

I can see the difference between abortion (between a woman and her womb) of course, but I remember in a previous post that you think people should be able to use drugs at will...is that right? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Just curious what you think about this.
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Kypros
replied on May 12th, 2007
Experienced User
Birch wrote:
Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Man, that's a tough position.

Yes, perhaps, but it gives the people the basic freedom they need Very Happy. I am known to be very contraversial in some of my opinions but I don't care - I feel that they are right morally (in the sense that the citizens can act how they wish without infringing on others' rights).

I admit, late-term abortions can be harder emotionally, physically, and ethically, but I would be much more uncomfortable placing my beliefs on women who want to terminate in such a position. Even if you dislike late-term abortions - or abortions in general - you cannot ignore the fact that personhood is developed at birth and all fowtuses are rightless invaders of their mother's womb. That's all I need to take into consideration to make me an advocate of all aspects of personal body control because, at the end of the day, amongst all the other nasty things, that is what every abortion is.

Kypros.


Yes, I can understand what you are saying. It sounds harsh, but it is factually true and I appreciate it as so.

I'm also trying to tie it in together with other concepts that inevitably come up. Such as drug use-one should be able to make autonomous decisions about one's own body, but how far does it go? Using addictive, body destroying drugs such as crack and heroin negatively effect the person as well as family, friends, and society.

I can see the difference between abortion (between a woman and her womb) of course, but I remember in a previous post that you think people should be able to use drugs at will...is that right? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Just curious what you think about this.


I know the post you are talking about but it wasn't me who said that I agree with the legalisation of drug use; actually, I don't, because it infringes the rights of other people and can be extremely worrying for society; abortion isn't. Drug use far from involves only the individual who is taking the narcotics.

I do, however, admittedly adhere to some very contraversial views that I don't mind posting for people to discuss. I may get abused for some of them - I don't know - but I've thought them through and through in order to come to the conclusion that my view is right morally. If you want me to say them, then just give me a shout and I'd be more than happy.
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Birch
replied on May 12th, 2007
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Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Man, that's a tough position.

Yes, perhaps, but it gives the people the basic freedom they need Very Happy. I am known to be very contraversial in some of my opinions but I don't care - I feel that they are right morally (in the sense that the citizens can act how they wish without infringing on others' rights).

I admit, late-term abortions can be harder emotionally, physically, and ethically, but I would be much more uncomfortable placing my beliefs on women who want to terminate in such a position. Even if you dislike late-term abortions - or abortions in general - you cannot ignore the fact that personhood is developed at birth and all fowtuses are rightless invaders of their mother's womb. That's all I need to take into consideration to make me an advocate of all aspects of personal body control because, at the end of the day, amongst all the other nasty things, that is what every abortion is.

Kypros.


Yes, I can understand what you are saying. It sounds harsh, but it is factually true and I appreciate it as so.

I'm also trying to tie it in together with other concepts that inevitably come up. Such as drug use-one should be able to make autonomous decisions about one's own body, but how far does it go? Using addictive, body destroying drugs such as crack and heroin negatively effect the person as well as family, friends, and society.

I can see the difference between abortion (between a woman and her womb) of course, but I remember in a previous post that you think people should be able to use drugs at will...is that right? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Just curious what you think about this.


I know the post you are talking about but it wasn't me who said that I agree with the legalisation of drug use; actually, I don't, because it infringes the rights of other people and can be extremely worrying for society; abortion isn't. Drug use far from involves only the individual who is taking the narcotics.

I do, however, admittedly adhere to some very contraversial views that I don't mind posting for people to discuss. I may get abused for some of them - I don't know - but I've thought them through and through in order to come to the conclusion that my view is right morally. If you want me to say them, then just give me a shout and I'd be more than happy.


Huh, I thought that was you. Sorry! (Hhopefully whoever said that will see this and help me out.)

Oooh, please do! I always like to hear different opinions.
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Kypros
replied on May 12th, 2007
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Birch wrote:
Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Kypros wrote:
Birch wrote:
Man, that's a tough position.

Yes, perhaps, but it gives the people the basic freedom they need Very Happy. I am known to be very contraversial in some of my opinions but I don't care - I feel that they are right morally (in the sense that the citizens can act how they wish without infringing on others' rights).

I admit, late-term abortions can be harder emotionally, physically, and ethically, but I would be much more uncomfortable placing my beliefs on women who want to terminate in such a position. Even if you dislike late-term abortions - or abortions in general - you cannot ignore the fact that personhood is developed at birth and all fowtuses are rightless invaders of their mother's womb. That's all I need to take into consideration to make me an advocate of all aspects of personal body control because, at the end of the day, amongst all the other nasty things, that is what every abortion is.

Kypros.


Yes, I can understand what you are saying. It sounds harsh, but it is factually true and I appreciate it as so.

I'm also trying to tie it in together with other concepts that inevitably come up. Such as drug use-one should be able to make autonomous decisions about one's own body, but how far does it go? Using addictive, body destroying drugs such as crack and heroin negatively effect the person as well as family, friends, and society.

I can see the difference between abortion (between a woman and her womb) of course, but I remember in a previous post that you think people should be able to use drugs at will...is that right? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Just curious what you think about this.


I know the post you are talking about but it wasn't me who said that I agree with the legalisation of drug use; actually, I don't, because it infringes the rights of other people and can be extremely worrying for society; abortion isn't. Drug use far from involves only the individual who is taking the narcotics.

I do, however, admittedly adhere to some very contraversial views that I don't mind posting for people to discuss. I may get abused for some of them - I don't know - but I've thought them through and through in order to come to the conclusion that my view is right morally. If you want me to say them, then just give me a shout and I'd be more than happy.


Huh, I thought that was you. Sorry! (Hhopefully whoever said that will see this and help me out.)

Oooh, please do! I always like to hear different opinions.


OK, I'll go into detail tomorrow, because I'm off to bed soon Razz . But I'll leave you on a cliff here: I support the legalisation of polygamy and incest! There's more, but I actually cannot remember right now Rolling Eyes - shit I must be tired!

See ya.
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Birch
replied on May 12th, 2007
Extremely eHealthy
Kypros wrote:


OK, I'll go into detail tomorrow, because I'm off to bed soon Razz . But I'll leave you on a cliff here: I support the legalisation of polygamy and incest! There's more, but I actually cannot remember right now Rolling Eyes - shit I must be tired!

See ya.


Oh, my, won't this be interesting! Night night!
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