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wow...

After reading that...It makes me wonder why bother? If you are that paraoid... And can't trust her..And read emails proving that she is a cheater...Most likely then she is. Is this woman worth all of this trouble?

Maybe the therapist is the "one"? Jk- seriously though- if you have reason to believe.. Then act on it. Gut instinct is the best option to go with..Even if you keep second doubting it. I would point blank ask her to her face- in front of the therapist... "are you cheating on me?" watch her reaction- everything, body laguage, facial, listen to her response.

If it was me... And this person truely wasn't cheating, i'd at least ask. Then tell her why you asked. Don't be rude- if she fumbles or instantly gets angry.. She really shouldn't if nothing is going on. I would be more sad than mad if someone brought that to my attention if nothing was going on.

I wish you luck

-=red=-

we have 2 children, that's the only reason i'm still trying to sort things out, otherwise I would have walked after finding the emails.

Thanks for your advice, i'm going to do that (ask her in front of the therapist if she's still talking to this guy or not). If I can't read her reaction, which i'm sure I can pretty well, at least he can and maybe that will open it up! Problem is i'll have to word it differently, maybe ask "are you still talking to him?" instead of saying "cheating" because she doesn't consider it cheating! Grrrrrrrrrrrr

Nobody can watch another person 24/7..........And why should you? Relationships should be based on trust and support................If it's all come down to finding out the truth.....................It's kind of a waste of time..................Ie the marriage is in the toilet already.........................Sounds a wee bit controlling.....................If anyone gives me reason to even suspect they are cheating.............What's the point?

What's the bottom line?.............................If you want to save the marriage....................Start the healing now....................Find out what this "friend" has that you don't....................Does he listen?Is he supportive?Does he make her feel like a million bucks?Is he a true friend?.....................If you are not that to her..................Than it is not unreasonable that she looked for it elsewhere

wanna stay for the childrens sake?........................Well that one hardly ever works.......................It's better to have two happy separate parents than a war brewing everyday......................If you don't want your kids in "therapy" when they're older.................Get your act together now

i hear you, but you're missing some key ingredients. She came to me beginning of dec asking why I don't kiss her passionately anymore. I say you're right, let's work on that because I love you and do enjoy kissing you. Then a week later she says she doesn't like that I drink. I say okay, i'll stop drinking (i never drank much anyway but knew something was bothering her, I drank only on weekends when doing stuff outside the home, never around the kids and never got drunk), then she says well I have some issues to work out and I say okay, i'm here for you. Then a week or so after that she says she doesn't love me anymore and these feelings have been for awhile now. I say okay, lets go to counseling and see what can be done to fix our marriage. Then I find the emails between her and ol' bean and she says nothing is going on and that's not the reason for her feelings and vice versa. So we go to counseling and she won't be truthful. I find more emails a month later and confront, she still denies anything going on, anything physical, and I say okay but you lied and broke a promise (to not comm with him anymore) and she turns it all back on me, asking me "do you think that low of me" "do you think i'm a promiscuous person, a cheater?" at which time I tell her "i didn't think low of you before, but when you give off all the signals of an unfaithful spouse, I have the right to know" and "i never thought low of you until now".

I think if she is right and the emails were just innocent flirting and it's now over, I could forgive (but never forget). But how do I know?

Key ingredients? Or excuses?..............First the kissing than the drinking....Than? Don't blame her............It's a process of discovering yourself...............However your mixed up in this discovering..............If it weren't for the children i'd say don't bother................Whether it's "innocent flirting" or not ..........It's still deceiving...................Your giving off the signals of makin an effort.............Is she doing the same?..........Sometimes it's just over and it's not any one reason...........Just a culmination of things over time......................One thing I can say and I really mean it.............You will feel an overwhelming sense of relief when all is said and done.......................Just remember the children are the true innocents and must be protected at all costs

............It doesn't really matter to me if the person is cheating............It's more a case of...........How do they make me feel about myself?..............If the answer is a bag of sh*t............Than it's time to move on

spirit, the ellipsis' are killing us, please just use a period. It's hard to read........... When everything......... Is like this......... Puhlease!!!!!!

how will you ever know anything your wife says? It is a simple matter of trust. If you don't trust her, you can't ever really know and will be paranoid about it. That, alone, can cause a strain in your marriage (as I assume it already is).

If this started at the begining of .December, as you said, it is only the begining of feb now - 2 months in a lifetime of your lives together hardly seems worth ending an entire relationship for!

Talk with her. You be honest with her about your feelings - tell her you are afraid. Don't accuse her of cheating - that would be the wrong thing to do. You don't know she is cheating but you seem to fear it a great deal.

A private investigator is not going to solve you problem. What if he said she wasn't cheating? What if he said she was? The difference it makes means what? Work on that.

amen to all you've said here, thank you very much for your reply!

what if? Indeed! I've tried talking to this woman time and time again, until i'm just too tired to try anymore. She wont' open up, won't be honest with me about anything...If she won't be honest about what i've already caught her doing in counseling, I cannot trust her. Monday we have a appt with the therapist, i'm going to ask her once more then to be honest and put it all out there, and if she refuses i'm out of there and going home to pack my stuff.

Sorry to hear about your stuggle...Relationships are hard regardless if its with a lover, parrent, friend etc.

Something i'm still teaching myself and I know many others wont find it fair...But I have to do this for my own health and protection. I set boundries and hold to them...I must. I am a very forgiving person but I know if someone lies to me or cheats on me I will break up with them. This has nothing to do with the love for this person...Its for my own wellbeing. I'm the type of person who needs isolation after a breakup or I will alwasy be in love with that person. Regardless how much I get stabed by someone my love will still prevail....And it sucks, but thats the way I am.

I know for myself that therapy or councling isint going to help me forgive someone...Or even help with a problem in a relatinship. I'm 2 heart strong to let someone eles make me feel different or even cope with something like that.

As said above, relationships are the hardest (did it work?) thing that we will have to deal with in our lives...Take care of yourself, set boundires and hold to them.

Best of luck and I hope your heart doesnt hurt 2 much.

"innocent flirting" is kind of an oxymoron.

I have not hired a pi before, but when I suspected my ex was cheating on me, I turned into a pi. It was very easy to find voicemail passwords and voila! There was the proof I needed to get the heck outta there.

While keyloggers are good, I have to say that if she will not give you the new passwords, then there is reasonable suspicion she has something to hide.



this ^ is the kind of manipulation that cheaters do.

Further denial in therapy of what you have seen with your own two eyes is also manipulation-don't let her call you 'crazy' or that you 'didn't see what you saw'. That is the worst.

Since you are married with two children, I would hire the pi. If she finds out, she simply has no ground to stand on to be angry with you. If she had nothing to hide, then there's no reason to be angy. You cared enough about the relationship to find out the truth. If she had something to hide, then there's no reason to care if she's angry.

How much money is peace of mind worth? Having the facts in front of you is going to help you make a good decision; the best one you can.

Best of luck!

I say if you have to find passwords, install keyloggers etc. The relatinship isint already worth it.

How much do people have to go though to call it quits? Make boundries and if people cross them there are many more out there.

Birch and color, thanks for your insights and comments, they are sincerely appreciated.

Color, i'm like you, i'm thinking now I can't even open up to this person (she tries some nonchalant caca to act like nothing is going on), and when i'm out there dating again, how can I ever open up completely to a new love(r)?

Maybe I should see the counselor on my own, screw the pi. I know what I know for free already...

Thanks again to all who've helped!

You do it man...Stay up ^_^.

Alwasy feel free to post here...Theres many of us willing to talk ^_^

Wow dpantelones seems like you have been through alot, and I am so sorry about your heartache! I dont wish that pain on my worst enemy! The advice is great! And I feel that if you love your wife, and if you want to work it out, try it...And if you feel liek you have to go to the counselor alone, to just let somethings out! Do that..Do it for you! I spent my whole life watching one of my parents cheat on the other, and it was very hard, my father went through some mess with my moms behavior, and like you he wanted to stay because they have 6 children in common..Now they are working it out, and seeking help! It was a very long process, but your wife has to be willing to change, and willing to admit what she did, or is doing is wrong! You cant do it all alone, because it wont work that way! Seems liek shes finding little things to pick at you about (weekend drinking) and cheaters do that..They find whatever than can to pick on there spouses about to justify there actions! I say do what you have to do for yourself! And if you ever need to talk, by all means post away! Good luck.

good points baby, thank you!

I am trying to be strong and come out with it, it's going to be very hard to tell her i'm leaving. We see the therapist today, and i'm wondering if I should do it then and there, or wait or what? The absolute hardest thing is going to be telling the kids, that is going to rip my heart out, but again, i'll try to be strong and explain everything to them in a way they can understand.

I will make no mention of fault or anything like that, just say that daddy and mommy don't get along anymore and it's nothing the kids have done, and it's no one's fault, things just happen that way sometimes.

Anyone have any advice in either of these areas (telling the stbx that she's a stbx, and/or explaining to the kids why dad is leaving)? It would be appreciated.

Color, thank you too, i've got my chin up (but not too high! ;o) ---> thank to all for being here for me!

i am sorry to hear all of this. The following isn't judgemental; it's just a different view on divorce:

you have kids; you need to make sure that this is in everyone's best interests. Divorce is very negative on children. Recent studies have indicated that kids may not even notice their parents ill content, because they are so egocentric. You also have to consider that when parents divorce, the mother and children immediately suffer a severe drop in financial stability. You must make sure the kids are adequately provided for.

From what i've gathered, you've seen emails that indicate that she has cheated. But you don't have anything else to go on; are you willing to make your children suffer because you read a few emails? And you even posted this: so what's going on now?

You sound pretty eager to get out of the relationship. Ask yourself what your true motivations are. Maybe you want out, too. People have survived worse situations and gone on to have stronger relationships.

Also, do you have to be the one who leaves? Do you have to leave the kids in the care of mom? If she is dishonest, and cheats, is this in their best interests? Why don't you insist you become the primary caregiver, and make the wife leave?

I think you need a better therapist if they aren't discussing these issues with you.

Regardless, best of luck!

Color, you sound so much like me! When I am hurt, I want to get as far away from the hurt as possible. I refuse to stay with anyone who doesn't love me. I have too much respect for myself, and I find when you respect yourself, others do too. My husband learned the hard way that I will not tolerate betrayal from him, but now he is a better person for it. When you have been married as long as we have, there are going to be some ups and downs, but it's all how you handle it that makes the difference.

birch, thanks for your comments...

So what's going on now you ask...Well I found more emails, after that statement (after she lied and I bought it), that's what happened...

I feel like she's a good mother and would never do anything to hurt the kids, and I firmly believe that children need their mother...I would have joint custody or whatever you call it, she would never deny me the right to spend time with my kids.

As for seeming eager to end the relationship, yes you're correct...I've been cheated on, lied to, decieved and made to feel like a worthless piece of crap for far too long now...Is that wrong?