Abortion Debate Forum - Semi-religious Discussion. page 2

Amaria on January 14th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

I think I better make sure which one you are talking about (i am getting confused)... Do you mean omnipotent (all powerful) or omniscient (all knowing/understanding).

I am guessing you must mean omniscent.

I still don't get how you don't think the two can exist together. Just because you know/have full understanding of what is happening, does not mean you planned it that way.

|

diamondsz replied on January 14th, 2007

Extremely EHEALTHy

[quote="eiri
if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.

Free will and omnipotence cannot coexist.[/quote]

im going to add onto this........

Im agnostic I believe in a higher power but not necessarily god I stopped believing in god when I relaized everything is based on choice/free will.

If god existed and laid down the rules then basically we would become slaves to this rule and never evolve, never become what we have today. Thing is everybody has a right to make a choice in what they believe and personally I feel everyone is a god cause if you make your own choices, then you have empowered yourself and not succoumbing to somebody else.

We were never meant to be slaves and as much as the people who follow a religion dont understand how much they are contradicting themselves cause you are following something of your choice, believing in something yet you hold it on to others as if they have to follow it.

|

Tylanas replied on January 15th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

amaria wrote:

i think I better make sure which one you are talking about (i am getting confused)... Do you mean omnipotent (all powerful) or omniscient (all knowing/understanding).

I am guessing you must mean omniscent.

I still don't get how you don't think the two can exist together. Just because you know/have full understanding of what is happening, does not mean you planned it that way.

yes, I mean he knows all. But he is also described as not only all-knowing, but also as all-powerful. So, he is technically omnicient and omnipotent.

My point still stands. It even says in the bible that he's all knowing.

|

Amaria replied on January 15th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

yes, I mean he knows all. But he is also described as not only all-knowing, but also as all-powerful. So, he is technically omnicient and omnipotent.

My point still stands. It even says in the bible that he's all knowing.

he's omnipresent, also.

I fail to see how you have proved anything... Just becasue you know something will happen, does not mean you want it that way... He could make it how he would like (for he is omnipotent)... He does not, though, because we have free will.

Again, how does someone knowing what you will do equate to them wanting that outcome? Seriously, will someone explain this?
-----------

diamondsz wrote:

if god existed and laid down the rules then basically we would become slaves to this rule and never evolve, never become what we have today.

so are we slaves to the government? Following rules equals becoming a slave? I disagree. We still have the free will to disobey the rules.... There are consequences, but we still can.

diamondsz wrote:

we were never meant to be slaves and as much as the people who follow a religion dont understand how much they are contradicting themselves cause you are following something of your choice, believing in something yet you hold it on to others as if they have to follow it."

i do not comprehend this statement.

|

diamondsz replied on January 15th, 2007

Extremely EHEALTHy

amaria wrote:

diamondsz wrote:

we were never meant to be slaves and as much as the people who follow a religion dont understand how much they are contradicting themselves cause you are following something of your choice, believing in something yet you hold it on to others as if they have to follow it."

i do not comprehend this statement.

if you dont believe in abortion or anything else cause it is based on your beliefs/religions than others dont have to follow, not everyone is catholic or christian. I hate how alot of religious people feel they have to convert or push their beliefs on you.

|

Amaria replied on January 15th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

diamondsz wrote:

if you dont believe in abortion or anything else cause it is based on your beliefs/religions than others dont have to follow, not everyone is catholic or christian. I hate how alot of religious people feel they have to convert or push their beliefs on you.

sorry, if you feel this way because of me. I did not mean to be pushy.

Btw, part of some people's beliefs are that they are told by god (or whoever) to share the message with as many people as possible, which may explain it. Take, for example, jehova's witnesses... Who hasn't had a visit from them before? Wink

|

Jules replied on January 15th, 2007

Moderator

amaria wrote:

diamondsz wrote:

if you dont believe in abortion or anything else cause it is based on your beliefs/religions than others dont have to follow, not everyone is catholic or christian. I hate how alot of religious people feel they have to convert or push their beliefs on you.

sorry, if you feel this way because of me. I did not mean to be pushy.

Btw, part of some people's beliefs are that they are told by god (or whoever) to share the message with as many people as possible, which may explain it. Take, for example, jehova's witnesses... Who hasn't had a visit from them before? Wink

yeah, they have a quota they are supposed to reach each day I think. At least a certain amount of 'attempted conversions' each day, anyway!

|

Meandering Away replied on January 15th, 2007

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.

sorry but I disagree, I can let my wife chose what she wants to watch on telly, even though I know for certain she will pick a soap opera, that is not me controlling her, just because I know what she will chose does not mean I am controllng her it just means that I know her very well.The same with. God/jesus/allah/buddah, just because they know the outcome of your choice does not mean that they are controlling you.Has he made you do it or is he letting you choose to do it even though he knows what you are going to do you still have the choice, that is what free will is, just like I know if certain posters on here get pregnant they will abort/ give birth does that mean I am controlling them.

|

Tylanas replied on January 15th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

amaria wrote:

eiri wrote:

yes, I mean he knows all. But he is also described as not only all-knowing, but also as all-powerful. So, he is technically omnicient and omnipotent.

My point still stands. It even says in the bible that he's all knowing.

he's omnipresent, also.

I fail to see how you have proved anything... Just becasue you know something will happen, does not mean you want it that way... He could make it how he would like (for he is omnipotent)... He does not, though, because we have free will.

if we had a true choice, then god could not know the outcome; if he did know the outcome, then everything, even our "choice" was part of the plan. Thus, we were destined to make that choice anyway, no matter how much we thought we were doing it by ourselves. Do you see now?

Quote:

again, how does someone knowing what you will do equate to them wanting that outcome? Seriously, will someone explain this?

i never said it did, so there's nothing to explain. I infact described during my example of the movie that often, you may really wish someone wouldn't do something. But you know they will, because it is part of the script that you wrote. And any "script changes", you already knew were coming also, becasue you know everything.

|

Tylanas replied on January 15th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

cowboys wrote:

eiri wrote:

if god gives you the choice, then he cannot know the outcome; for if he does, then he's not actually giving you a choice since you're going to do what he already knows what you're going to do. That is not free will.

sorry but I disagree, I can let my wife chose what she wants to watch on telly, even though I know for certain she will pick a soap opera, that is not me controlling her, just because I know what she will chose does not mean I am controllng her it just means that I know her very well.The same with. God/jesus/allah/buddah, just because they know the outcome of your choice does not mean that they are controlling you.Has he made you do it or is he letting you choose to do it even though he knows what you are going to do you still have the choice, that is what free will is, just like I know if certain posters on here get pregnant they will abort/ give birth does that mean I am controlling them.

i'm sorry, but personal habits are far, far different from the idea of true omnicience. She may, someday, choose something different... And you have no way of knowing when or if that will happen. A truly omnicient god does know. So even if your wife went "i'm going to watch m*a*s*h just to confuse my husband, god already knew that was going to happen. It was all part of the plan.

Secondly, for the love of your god... Budda is not a god. Buddhists do not worship him as a god; they may revere him as christians revere jesus - to my knowledge you don't actually worship jesus, do you?

And just becasue you know soemthing, doesn't mean you planned it. That's why I made sure to include the fact in my example that not only is god the director, he is also the script writer. Hell, he's also the casting crew, and every thing else, except the actors, that's us. Except we don't know we're actors, so we think we have free will.. When it's already been planned.

|

Amaria replied on January 15th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

if we had a true choice, then god could not know the outcome; if he did know the outcome, then everything, even our "choice" was part of the plan. Thus, we were destined to make that choice anyway, no matter how much we thought we were doing it by ourselves. Do you see now?

i still don't see how a "plan" is equal to knowing what will happen. Even if we are destined to make certain choices, they are still choices... Which is free will.

eiri wrote:

amaria wrote:

again, how does someone knowing what you will do equate to them wanting that outcome? Seriously, will someone explain this?

i never said it did, so there's nothing to explain. I infact described during my example of the movie that often, you may really wish someone wouldn't do something. But you know they will, because it is part of the script that you wrote. And any "script changes", you already knew were coming also, becasue you know everything.

this hinges on the fact that god is the one "writing the script"... The whole point of free will is that he doesn't, he just has an advance copy of it. We are the ones writing the script, we are the ones taking certain actions, making choices.

|

Tylanas replied on January 16th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

amaria wrote:

eiri wrote:

if we had a true choice, then god could not know the outcome; if he did know the outcome, then everything, even our "choice" was part of the plan. Thus, we were destined to make that choice anyway, no matter how much we thought we were doing it by ourselves. Do you see now?

i still don't see how a "plan" is equal to knowing what will happen.

because he litterally does make us do what we do. In the end, that's what omnipotence and omniscience and whatever else you want to throw in there does.

Quote:

even if we are destined to make certain choices, they are still choices... Which is free will.

would you consider it free will if your "choices" were to be skinned alive, or to be eaten alive? I don't consider those choices. And in god's will, you only think you are making a choice, when in fact you are just a puppet doing what he wants you to do.

If you were destined to make choice (a), say, then ou never ctually had the option to chose (b). Sure, it was there, and you thought you were deciding on (a). But you were always, and always are, going to chose (a) because god said so when he wrote the script. That is not a choice.

Destiny is the opposite of free will; that's why it is such an issue in fantasy movies and a lot of anime. The heros are "destined" to do something, so they don't have a choice; they have to do it.

Quote:

eiri wrote:

amaria wrote:

again, how does someone knowing what you will do equate to them wanting that outcome? Seriously, will someone explain this?

i never said it did, so there's nothing to explain. I infact described during my example of the movie that often, you may really wish someone wouldn't do something. But you know they will, because it is part of the script that you wrote. And any "script changes", you already knew were coming also, becasue you know everything.

this hinges on the fact that god is the one "writing the script"...

who else would be, in omnipotence and omnicience? Remember, that's what we're talking about here. God is th eone who wrote the script. If he isn't then he's not all knowing, because if he's not in charge of the universe then how can he know everything? He has to be the one in charge of everything in order to know everything. That makes im omnicient and omnipotent. If even a single other being or person does one of the jobs, then god loses his all-knowingness and all-powerfullness

Quote:

the whole point of free will is that he doesn't, he just has an advance copy of it. We are the ones writing the script, we are the ones taking certain actions, making choices.

not in true omnicience; because if humans change the script; how is god going to know the choice we're going to make? He has to already know in advance we're going to make the change in the first place, which means it is our destiny to change it, and destiny is not free will.

|

Amaria replied on January 16th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

he has to be the one in charge of everything in order to know everything.

hmm, I am wondering if what omniscent means to you is altogether different from what I believe it is, which is... Complete understanding, I see god as the enlightened being which understands that which we are not capable of. It seems you are coupling omniscience with dictating every action. Understanding/knowledge of an action and controlling that action are totally different attributes... Omnisience does not imply control, only knowledge.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on yet another issue Wink

.

|

Tylanas replied on January 16th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

amaria wrote:

eiri wrote:

he has to be the one in charge of everything in order to know everything.

hmm, I am wondering if what omniscent means to you is altogether different from what I believe it is, which is... Complete understanding,

ah, see, complete "undersyanding" and complete "knowledge" are in fact two different things. Before I think we should continue, I think we need to verify for sure what omnicient means, otherwise we're just going to keep doing circles and that's not fun ^_^

Quote:

i see god as the enlightened being which understands that which we are not capable of. It seems you are coupling omniscience with dictating every action. Understanding/knowledge of an action and controlling that action are totally different attributes... Omnisience does not imply control, only knowledge.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on yet another issue Wink

.

|

nightangel73 replied on January 16th, 2007

Extremely EHEALTHy

Oh guys I tried on wedding dresses for the first time in my life yesterday and ohh they were so pretty!!! I did truly looked like a princess. It was such an emotional moment. My wedding dream come true. Truly choosing the dress is the best part of planning the whole wedding!

So what you guys discussing here?

|

Tazzy D replied on January 16th, 2007

Advanced Support Team

nightangel73 wrote:

oh guys I tried on wedding dresses for the first time in my life yesterday and ohh they were so pretty!!! I did truly looked like a princess. It was such an emotional moment. My wedding dream come true. Truly choosing the dress is the best part of planning the whole wedding!

So what you guys discussing here?

not to throw the topic off .. But did you take pictures??????

|

Tylanas replied on January 16th, 2007

Especially EHEALTHy

tazzy d wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

oh guys I tried on wedding dresses for the first time in my life yesterday and ohh they were so pretty!!! I did truly looked like a princess. It was such an emotional moment. My wedding dream come true. Truly choosing the dress is the best part of planning the whole wedding!

So what you guys discussing here?

not to throw the topic off .. But did you take pictures??????

when I marry someday, i'm wearing my mom's dress Wink

|

nightangel73 replied on January 16th, 2007

Extremely EHEALTHy

tazzy d wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

oh guys I tried on wedding dresses for the first time in my life yesterday and ohh they were so pretty!!! I did truly looked like a princess. It was such an emotional moment. My wedding dream come true. Truly choosing the dress is the best part of planning the whole wedding!

So what you guys discussing here?

not to throw the topic off .. But did you take pictures??????

i did not took pics but I will next time I go and have to make the decision on which dress I will be wearing. It will be hard to choose as I was fascinated with every dress I tried! I'm setting the wedding date this week. Smile

eiri that is neat you would like to wear your mom wedding dress.

|