Abortion Debate Forum - At Least Admit What Ur Doing. page 2

Tylanas on January 14th, 2007

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amaria wrote:

eiri wrote:

amaria wrote:

jenn_smithson wrote:

you have obviously never been pregnant or given birth. .Pregnancy and child birth are .M.O.R.E than just a mere inconvience. Attempting to dismiss the hell that it is, the risks that you are taking, and the .Actual physical and emotional costs that you bear during a pregnancy and child birth, makes you seem completely uncompassionate and unempathetic. .Women go through more than just an inconvenience to have children. Because of this, only the woman can decide if she wants to experience that torture for herself.

i have had three children, and I must say I still stick with what I said. It is in no way "hell" - that is quite an imbellishment. Even throwing up every single day, with my last one... A very small thing to bring a life into this world.

I stand by what I said, it is a mere inconvenievece, for nine months. In the course of our lives that is roughly 1%... For a whole lifetime.

hun, please remeber that what you consider a minor inconveniece, someone else may consider unbreable. You and someone else have different tolerances for pain and discomfort.

For some women, even mothers, pregnancy was hell; they hated it.

alright, I will give you that some women hate it more than others... But I really am going to stick to the time issue! Lol

despite the fact that "it's not that bad" is no longer a strong argument?

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Amaria replied on January 14th, 2007

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Yes. 9 months in exchange for someone's entire life.

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Birch replied on January 14th, 2007

Supporter

amaria wrote:

yes. 9 months in exchange for someone's entire life.

it is important to remember perspective...You wanted your children (i assume as much), many others do not. If you do not want children and find yourself pregnant, dealing with pregnancy is intolerable-not just physically, but emotionally as well.

You must give validity to the reasons women have abortions instead of tossing them off as "selfish" and "conceited" or you will not make a difference. Make changes, not judgements.

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Amaria replied on January 14th, 2007

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birch wrote:

it is important to remember perspective...You wanted your children (i assume as much), many others do not. If you do not want children and find yourself pregnant, dealing with pregnancy is intolerable-not just physically, but emotionally as well.

You must give validity to the reasons women have abortions instead of tossing them off as "selfish" and "conceited" or you will not make a difference. Make changes, not judgements.

please remember my perspective, as well. I do not give validity to most reasons to abort. I think mostly it is a selfish thing to do... Maybe the women are not generally selfish, but it (to me) is still a selfish action.

I am familiar with many reasons that women want abortions... It is not that I do not get what a tough situation they are in. It is that I think the value of human life should be the priority. That in taking that life they are playing god, without the foresight/understanding of a god.

I am not saying they are bad people, I am saying (i think) they made a grave mistake.

I am not foolish enough to think I will make a difference.

Everyone makes judgements. It is how we distinguish right from wrong. That's what the abortion debate is all about.

I would like to think that we can disagree without judging people as a whole... As for the action, as I said, we all distinguish between right and wrong... That is a judgement.

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Tylanas replied on January 14th, 2007

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amaria wrote:

birch wrote:

it is important to remember perspective...You wanted your children (i assume as much), many others do not. If you do not want children and find yourself pregnant, dealing with pregnancy is intolerable-not just physically, but emotionally as well.

You must give validity to the reasons women have abortions instead of tossing them off as "selfish" and "conceited" or you will not make a difference. Make changes, not judgements.

please remember my perspective, as well. I do not give validity to most reasons to abort. I think mostly it is a selfish thing to do... Maybe the women are not generally selfish, but it (to me) is still a selfish action.

I am familiar with many reasons that women want abortions... It is not that I do not get what a tough situation they are in. It is that I think the value of human life should be the priority.

human life... But the mother herself is human! Pregnancy itself can be an infringement on human rights. The problem that happens in abortion is that pro-choice generally feel that the woman is worth more than the fetus and that her priorities come first, no matter what. Pro-life, from what I can tell, don't care about the woman's right to her body unless shes going to die or the situation is similarly dire.

Quote:

that in taking that life they are playing god, without the foresight/understanding of a god.

you're rather new, so i'd like to mention that many of the pro-choicers here are either not christian/monotheistic, or they find much of these kinds of religions to be... Less than desireable to be brought up in a debate. We like our debates to remain factual.

Quote:

i am not saying they are bad people, I am saying (i think) they made a grave mistake.

I am not foolish enough to think I will make a difference.

but you can make a difference. If you can convince even one young woman that condoms do actually work, then you can prevent an abortion. I wish pro-life would look at it like that more often. Stop attacking the symptom of ignorance (abortion) and go for the source: the young sexually active women. Help make them realise that contrception really does work; help remove th web of lies spread by the catholic church that the pills kills young women or that they cause infertility, or that "god would want their bodis to be all natural". If you prevent the pregnancy, you prevent the abortion.

Quote:

everyone makes judgements. It is how we distinguish right from wrong. That's what the abortion debate is all about.

right and wrong? Pro-choice feels it is about personal rights. That's the thing... The two sides are arguing about two totally different things.

Quote:

i would like to think that we can disagree without judging people as a whole... As for the action, as I said, we all distinguish between right and wrong... That is a judgement.

yes it is, and I am happy that you're actually admitting that you judge people; we all do. But several pro-life women on here like to act all hgh and mighty; they judge, and they say "i'm not doing it, god is!"

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Birch replied on January 14th, 2007

Supporter

amaria wrote:

please remember my perspective, as well. I do not give validity to most reasons to abort. I think mostly it is a selfish thing to do... Maybe the women are not generally selfish, but it (to me) is still a selfish action.

I am familiar with many reasons that women want abortions... It is not that I do not get what a tough situation they are in. It is that I think the value of human life should be the priority. That in taking that life they are playing god, without the foresight/understanding of a god.

okay, I will go with this. I think first we have to address; why is 'human life' not the priority?

And if it's not, what are the priorities?

And, how can we shift them?

And, do we want to shift them, and why?

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Tylanas replied on January 14th, 2007

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birch wrote:

amaria wrote:

please remember my perspective, as well. I do not give validity to most reasons to abort. I think mostly it is a selfish thing to do... Maybe the women are not generally selfish, but it (to me) is still a selfish action.

I am familiar with many reasons that women want abortions... It is not that I do not get what a tough situation they are in. It is that I think the value of human life should be the priority. That in taking that life they are playing god, without the foresight/understanding of a god.

okay, I will go with this. I think first we have to address; why is 'human life' not the priority?

And if it's not, what are the priorities?

And, how can we shift them?

And, do we want to shift them, and why?

human life is the priority, or do you consider a pregnant woman to be something other than a human?

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Amaria replied on January 14th, 2007

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I'm not asking that you agree with what I am saying, only that you understand what I am saying...

I think that when there is a choice between a human life and someone's lifestyle or preferences, the answer should be that human life. I am not placing more importance on either, I am placing the importance on life (both of thiers - not lifestyle).

In cases where the mother will die, unless they get an abortion - the woman's life takes priority. It would be silly to say she should remain pregnant in those cases, because both would die in the end.

I truly do think the mother's life is valuable. I just think that killing another human life, when both can live, is not a reasonable trade off.

Even if the woman views pregnancy as "hell"(not in the religious sense, but the euphamism)... 9 months of hell to give life to another, is a reasonable trade off, in my view.

Eiri, thank you for this reminder!

Quote:

but you can make a difference. If you can convince even one young woman that condoms do actually work, then you can prevent an abortion. I wish pro-life would look at it like that more often. Stop attacking the symptom of ignorance (abortion) and go for the source: the young sexually active women. Help make them realise that contrception really does work; help remove th web of lies spread by the catholic church that the pills kills young women or that they cause infertility, or that "god would want their bodis to be all natural". If you prevent the pregnancy, you prevent the abortion.

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birch wrote:

okay, I will go with this. I think first we have to address; why is 'human life' not the priority?

And if it's not, what are the priorities?

And, how can we shift them?

And, do we want to shift them, and why?

i do not believe that abortion is putting value on human life... I feel they are putting the value on the woman's wants/perspective. I am not saying that a woman's wants and perspective is inconsequential, just that human life is more important.

As for shifting them... Not sure that is possible... How can you persuade a woman who is pregnant into wanting that child? I don't think you can, or that it's right to. I think eiri's reminder of how we can help women applies here... Of course no matter how much information there is, some women will still choose not to use any birth control and continue to get abortion after abortion. We can only keep putting it out there.

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diamondsz replied on January 14th, 2007

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amaria wrote:

as for shifting them... Not sure that is possible... How can you persuade a woman who is pregnant into wanting that child? I don't think you can, or that it's right to. I think eiri's reminder of how we can help women applies here... Of course no matter how much information there is, some women will still choose not to use any birth control and continue to get abortion after abortion. We can only keep putting it out there.

wow I can actually agree to this~!

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diamond splinter replied on January 15th, 2007

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

eiri wrote:

and created hitler. Or stalin, or hussein. Splendid.

or eiri! Splendid.

if you deem it proper to compare me to hitler stalin and hussein, then you are obviously demented. It seems pro-life is always the one comparing pro-choice to killers... Yet pro-choice just sits patiently for the name calling to cease, and returns to the debate at hand. Funny, indeed.

liar pcers name call just as much if not more so than plers take lolbhaha and cambion for just two examples

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jenn_smithson replied on January 15th, 2007

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diamond splinter wrote:

eiri wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

eiri wrote:

and created hitler. Or stalin, or hussein. Splendid.

or eiri! Splendid.

if you deem it proper to compare me to hitler stalin and hussein, then you are obviously demented. It seems pro-life is always the one comparing pro-choice to killers... Yet pro-choice just sits patiently for the name calling to cease, and returns to the debate at hand. Funny, indeed.

liar pcers name call just as much if not more so than plers take lolbhaha and cambion for just two examples

this is not necessary to the conversation. Everyone please ignore it and attempt to refrain from responding directly to it.

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Meandering Away replied on January 15th, 2007

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

jenn_smithson wrote:

diamond splinter wrote:

eiri wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

eiri wrote:

and created hitler. Or stalin, or hussein. Splendid.

or eiri! Splendid.

if you deem it proper to compare me to hitler stalin and hussein, then you are obviously demented. It seems pro-life is always the one comparing pro-choice to killers... Yet pro-choice just sits patiently for the name calling to cease, and returns to the debate at hand. Funny, indeed.

liar pcers name call just as much if not more so than plers take lolbhaha and cambion for just two examples

this is not necessary to the conversation. Everyone please ignore it and attempt to refrain from responding directly to it.

nor was what she posted yet you did not ignore that did you, typical pc hypocrisy, do as say not as I do eh jenn.

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diamond splinter replied on January 15th, 2007

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Cowboys just let them get on with agreeing with each other you should know by now that what jenny and eirie say is true have sex prochoice is no choice Rolling Eyes

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Birch replied on January 15th, 2007

Supporter

diamondsz wrote:

amaria wrote:

as for shifting them... Not sure that is possible... How can you persuade a woman who is pregnant into wanting that child? I don't think you can, or that it's right to. I think eiri's reminder of how we can help women applies here... Of course no matter how much information there is, some women will still choose not to use any birth control and continue to get abortion after abortion. We can only keep putting it out there.

wow I can actually agree to this~!

really? I can't agree with this at all.

Many agencies are committed to the 'persuasion cause', either by inducing fear (you will get breast cancer! Or die! Or be consumed by eternal flames!) or by showing a woman her other options (adoption), or by providing support for her continued pregnancy.

Amaria, you said that you don't think it's right to persuade a woman to want her child. Do you then disagree with (some of) the missions of prolife agencies?

I also don't agree that women who are educated, and offered safe, effective birth control will deny use and continue to get abortion after abortion. Maybe the ones with ulterior motives, or some unresolved issue. But that's all conjecture on my part. :d

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Amaria replied on January 15th, 2007

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birch wrote:

diamondsz wrote:

amaria wrote:

as for shifting them... Not sure that is possible... How can you persuade a woman who is pregnant into wanting that child? I don't think you can, or that it's right to. I think eiri's reminder of how we can help women applies here... Of course no matter how much information there is, some women will still choose not to use any birth control and continue to get abortion after abortion. We can only keep putting it out there.

wow I can actually agree to this~!

really? I can't agree with this at all.

Many agencies are committed to the 'persuasion cause', either by inducing fear (you will get breast cancer! Or die! Or be consumed by eternal flames!) or by showing a woman her other options (adoption), or by providing support for her continued pregnancy.

Amaria, you said that you don't think it's right to persuade a woman to want her child. Do you then disagree with (some of) the missions of prolife agencies?

I also don't agree that women who are educated, and offered safe, effective birth control will deny use and continue to get abortion after abortion. Maybe the ones with ulterior motives, or some unresolved issue. But that's all conjecture on my part. :d

i don't think it's right, because if you succeed in talking her into keeping it, it is just temporary, resulting from peer preasure and other tactics. Later on, it is very possible (likely) that she would feel deep resentment, and even take it out on the child... At the very least, the child will know her feelings and will not feel loved.

I do, however think that an adoption representative should be there, to explain exactly how the process works and to answer any questions.

As for your last paragraph... It does not matter how educated they are, some women will still choose to abort for reasons such as: they don't want to look fat/have stretch marks, don't want anyone to know they got pregnant/are having sex, their husbands/boyfriend/lover does not want to wear condoms and they trust him, so why use condoms, or mess with their body chemistry (no, I am not joking, I have heard these exact thing), so why not just keep getting abortions...

As I have said before, I have heard women talk about their reasons before, how they don't care if they have to have 15 abortions, it's their choice... In a very glib (even callous) way - and i'm not talking about teenagers either. That is why I say, there will always be some who use abortions for birth control, no matter how much information they are given.

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Birch replied on January 15th, 2007

Supporter

amaria wrote:

i don't think it's right, because if you succeed in talking her into keeping it, it is just temporary, resulting from peer preasure and other tactics. Later on, it is very possible (likely) that she would feel deep resentment, and even take it out on the child... At the very least, the child will know her feelings and will not feel loved.

I do, however think that an adoption representative should be there, to explain exactly how the process works and to answer any questions.

so what does being "pro life" mean to you? That you would never have an abortion, but you wouldn't try to persuade another woman not to? That sounds kinda...Well, straddling the fence.

amaria wrote:

as for your last paragraph... It does not matter how educated they are, some women will still choose to abort for reasons such as: they don't want to look fat/have stretch marks, don't want anyone to know they got pregnant/are having sex, their husbands/boyfriend/lover does not want to wear condoms and they trust him, so why use condoms, or mess with their body chemistry (no, I am not joking, I have heard these exact thing), so why not just keep getting abortions...

As I have said before, I have heard women talk about their reasons before, how they don't care if they have to have 15 abortions, it's their choice... In a very glib (even callous) way - and i'm not talking about teenagers either. That is why I say, there will always be some who use abortions for birth control, no matter how much information they are given.

i just have a hard time believing you have come into numerous contacts with women who have had abortions for these reasons. And are they the primary reasons? It's not a case of, 'my god, I don't want to be a parent, I have no money, the father is going to jail, and I don't want to get fat on top of all that'?

It's nothing personal, it's just so far fetched to me, as I have had many discussions with many different types of women over why they have had abortions, and never were these reasons stated. Are you a member of "high society"?
If I were sitting across from you, I would like to put you to task to relate these stories to me and I would ask you questions to discern if something else wasn't going on.
Again, nothing personal, it's just that while I can see a few instances of this perhaps happening if you worked with women in some kind of specialized setting, but you make it sound like a very commonplace situation. If you can or feel like sharing more, I would be most interested in hearing about it.

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Tylanas replied on January 15th, 2007

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cowboys wrote:

jenn_smithson wrote:

diamond splinter wrote:

eiri wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

eiri wrote:

and created hitler. Or stalin, or hussein. Splendid.

or eiri! Splendid.

if you deem it proper to compare me to hitler stalin and hussein, then you are obviously demented. It seems pro-life is always the one comparing pro-choice to killers... Yet pro-choice just sits patiently for the name calling to cease, and returns to the debate at hand. Funny, indeed.

liar pcers name call just as much if not more so than plers take lolbhaha and cambion for just two examples

this is not necessary to the conversation. Everyone please ignore it and attempt to refrain from responding directly to it.

nor was what she posted yet you did not ignore that did you, typical pc hypocrisy, do as say not as I do eh jenn.

what I posted was in reaction to being compared to hitler, so once more, I reiterate: pro-life threw the first stone in that exchange.

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Tylanas replied on January 15th, 2007

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diamond splinter wrote:

cowboys just let them get on with agreeing with each other you should know by now that what jenny and eirie say is true hello prochoice is no choice Rolling Eyes

you obviously don't read everything on these forums, otherwise you would see the giant fight between me and jenn right now.

But nice try to once again stereotype is as killers. Pro-choice is more-choice.

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Amaria replied on January 16th, 2007

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

What being pro-life means to me, is valuing all human life. I think abortion is wrong. As for persuading another woman not to have an abortion... If I could, I would try to get her to see the benefits of adoption, and I would tell her my opinion. I would not try to persuade a woman who wants an abortion into keeping the child, for reasons previously stated.

As for my experience with women who have had abortions... I think you overestimate alot of women... Not every woman who gets an abortion has your ideals. I have actually had someone advocate a site about bashing babies (born) heads in. Shocked

this is not an everyday happening, and I am not in high society (of several that I have met irl, it is a varied group, but none of them would be "high society"). This is not only women I have met, but also in online forums. I am not saying that all women who abort are like that, but I must say that this is one of the more pleasant abortion forums I have visited.

As for if they are the women's primary reasons, I cannot say, as I am not privy to all of their most inner thoughts, but none of the ones you mentioned were stated, by the women I am speaking of... As it does not matter much to me one's reason's for aborting, it is more about the shock value of it, perhaps.

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Meandering Away replied on January 16th, 2007

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

jenn_smithson wrote:

diamond splinter wrote:

eiri wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

eiri wrote:

and created hitler. Or stalin, or hussein. Splendid.

or eiri! Splendid.

if you deem it proper to compare me to hitler stalin and hussein, then you are obviously demented. It seems pro-life is always the one comparing pro-choice to killers... Yet pro-choice just sits patiently for the name calling to cease, and returns to the debate at hand. Funny, indeed.

liar pcers name call just as much if not more so than plers take lolbhaha and cambion for just two examples

this is not necessary to the conversation. Everyone please ignore it and attempt to refrain from responding directly to it.

nor was what she posted yet you did not ignore that did you, typical pc hypocrisy, do as say not as I do eh jenn.

what I posted was in reaction to being compared to hitler, so once more, I reiterate: pro-life threw the first stone in that exchange.

did you not learn to read and comprehend at school, I was not talking to you , hence I put jenns name in it is her hypocrisy I was questioning not your response to nightangel.She is quick to condemn pro lifers yet keeps quiet when pro choice call us pro fetus humpers, that to my mind is hypocrisy.You are the only pcer to actually come out and ask that lolbah be ignored jenn has not yet what she posted is worse than what diamond splinter posted, wouldn,t you agree.

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