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This Is Really Hard For Me... (Page 1)

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I'm getting more uncomfortable everyday with the whole pro-choice/pro-life fight. Honestly this is hard to admit (very hard, i'm hard headed and not quick to admit things at times) i've really came to see the pro-choice view better and i'm just not comfortable anymore trying to tell anyone what they can do with their lives. I've really started to realize this with a lot of the marriage/gay marriage debates. Once you start controlling one persons life it leaves you open to control other lives and i'm really see how this is wrong. I'm not saying "yay let's all have abortions" but I am saying that not everyone thinks like me and I can't tell someone what they should or shouldn't do.

I guess you all can say that i've opened my eyes. I am still very much pro-life for myself. I could never harm something that is a part of me but honestly I can't judge what someone else is going through. I don't know their pain and their hurt and their situation.


I came here a long time ago think that selfish who*res were the only people who had abortions...I honestly believe that just isn't true.

I'm sorry if my pro-life friends feel that I have let them down but I just can't worry my life over what someone else is doing anymore.

We all deserve happiness, love and respect. I can't respect another human by thinking they are too incompetant to make their own choices.

Okay that's all...I feel like a total hypocrit now but honestly I started to sway a little this way during the marriage debates and it's time for me to switch sides and go with what I truly believe in.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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No one is a hypocrite for learning new things and changing their mind. If new information came to light proving to the world that god was the giant spaghetti monsters, well, i'd be converting. I'm not trying to trivialize it, I truly mean this. The nice thing about having ideas and not beliefs, is that it is easy to change your mind, but it is a hard to change a belief.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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Paganangel, I feel very much the same. I have pro-life sympathies and am pro-life for myself but I also don't think that abortion should be illegal because of the risks to the women involved. I do get angry when I hear of women aborting left, right and centre because I struggle with the morality of abortion. However, I consider myself still learning on this subject and I am seeking the answers I am comfortable with for myself. It sounds like you have already found your answer and that is excellent.

I've found that some pro-lifers can be too rigid in their view of the world and when religion gets brought into the equation it can become even more judgemental. However, to add balance to that statement, I also find that some pro-choicers can be unnecessarily combative and unwilling to accept that some women have a right to grieve their abortions.

I don't think there's any shame in changing your opinion on a subject. On the contrary it shows that you are an open minded individual.

Respect to you.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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Humility is bliss. Good for you!

I can certainly empathize with your statements-i can understand (some) of the prolife arguments, and I wish for the need for abortion to be eliminated, but I do not think I nor the gov't, is omnipotent.

Kudos to you! :d
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replied November 10th, 2006
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eiri wrote:
no one is a hypocrite for learning new things and changing their mind. If new information came to light proving to the world that god was the giant spaghetti monsters, well, i'd be converting. I'm not trying to trivialize it, I truly mean this. The nice thing about having ideas and not beliefs, is that it is easy to change your mind, but it is a hard to change a belief.


on that note, if it comes to be that the christian religion is "correct" I will not be converting until I get some answers!
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replied November 10th, 2006
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Religion doesn't come into it for me.

I still haven't found a term for what I truly am on the whole issue.

I mean, technically I must be pro-choice as I had an abortion after I was raped - almost 10 years ago.

But, I can't accept ow some people use abortion as a form of birth control - the whole "yeah, it won't happen to me and if it does, then i'll just have an abortion" - that is what I find wrong.

But I wouldn't want it illegalised because that would lead to back street abortions.

What I want to see is people encouraged to wait, better birth control education, better sex ed all round - better prevention.

Here in the uk there really is no reason to not use birth control.
Your family doctor can not tell your parents (or anyone else) if he prescribes birth control meds to you.
Birth control is free in this country to everyone.
Sure condoms are priced in the shops but can be obtained from any family planning or well woman clinic free.
With that availability I can not understand why there are so many accidental pregnancies.

I believe abortion does have it's place (rapes, incest, severe medical risk to mother or baby, etc) just that it should be discouraged and be more of a "last resort" rather than the norm...

Does that make sense?

Kinda like if you injure your leg badly - you don't say "oh what the heck, amputate it", you try to see if there is a less drastic option first and then amputate if there isn't.

***edit to add***
also the morning after pill is also available free from your doctor or family planning clinic (in the uk) and even if you leave it too late for the map - the iud/ius can be fitted upto 10 days post coital to prevent pregnancy - so yeah no real excuses.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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Pagan-angel you can still be pro-life your just more openminded now!!


Pro-life means so much more than than just saving the fetuses life, it actually means protecting the life that is already here on this world and fetuses actually come second not to seem rude! My mother is pro-life she has 6 kids she also lost 3 one being etopic but I accept her views and although I know she wouldn't hate me for having an abortion she would just disagree and state my other options!

Now the thing is my mom stood beside someone who was so strongly for abortion and supported that person, although she disagreed with it.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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birch wrote:
eiri wrote:
no one is a hypocrite for learning new things and changing their mind. If new information came to light proving to the world that god was the giant spaghetti monsters, well, i'd be converting. I'm not trying to trivialize it, I truly mean this. The nice thing about having ideas and not beliefs, is that it is easy to change your mind, but it is a hard to change a belief.


on that note, if it comes to be that the christian religion is "correct" I will not be converting until I get some answers!


well obviously. I'd hope that the proof provided in that case would be the explanation... Can you imagine the bruhaha tht would cause?
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replied November 10th, 2006
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kia_breizzze wrote:
religion doesn't come into it for me.

I still haven't found a term for what I truly am on the whole issue.

I mean, technically I must be pro-choice as I had an abortion after I was raped - almost 10 years ago.

But, I can't accept ow some people use abortion as a form of birth control - the whole "yeah, it won't happen to me and if it does, then i'll just have an abortion" - that is what I find wrong.

But I wouldn't want it illegalised because that would lead to back street abortions.

What I want to see is people encouraged to wait, better birth control education, better sex ed all round - better prevention.

Here in the uk there really is no reason to not use birth control.

Your family doctor can not tell your parents (or anyone else) if he prescribes birth control meds to you.

Birth control is free in this country to everyone.

Sure condoms are priced in the shops but can be obtained from any family planning or well woman clinic free.

With that availability I can not understand why there are so many accidental pregnancies.

I believe abortion does have it's place (rapes, incest, severe medical risk to mother or baby, etc) just that it should be discouraged and be more of a "last resort" rather than the norm...

Does that make sense?

Kinda like if you injure your leg badly - you don't say "oh what the heck, amputate it", you try to see if there is a less drastic option first and then amputate if there isn't.

***edit to add***
also the morning after pill is also available free from your doctor or family planning clinic (in the uk) and even if you leave it too late for the map - the iud/ius can be fitted upto 10 days post coital to prevent pregnancy - so yeah no real excuses.


i throughroully agree.

To add onto the leg example, there are some situations where the leg is so mangled that even though it could be saved and it would be usable, amputation could be a better choice, that way a prosthetic could be attatched, giving more mobolity than a mangled leg.

I feel the same way about elective/social/abortions. Sometimes, yes, if you are pregnant, you could chose adoption or keeping. But sometimes, abortion is simply the best option available, to maintain a proper quality of life for everyone involved.

But birth control always comes first. It is paramount to prevent a pregnancy before it occours. People prevent .A.I.D.S, they should prevent pregnancy just as fervently! For some women, becoming pregnant is as horrible as being diagnosed with terminal cancer or .A.I.D.S.
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replied November 10th, 2006
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I agree with nearly everything that everyone has said. I was worried about writing these because I figured I would be blasted.

I just got really mad in one post when someone told me that I should do something that I didn't want to do and it got me thinking. I couldn't imagine being told no you can't or yes you have to do this.

Like I said...I'm still very much pro-life for myself and I still feel bad that a fetus/embryo/zygote is being destroyed but what these women do has no affect on my life.

I was thinking about the gay marriage thing and wondering how can people be so against it when it in no way, shape or form hurts them and that's when it really hit me.

Better birth control, better sex education....I agree 100% this is what we really need!!
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replied November 11th, 2006
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Paganangel - having a change of opinion is nothing to be ashamed of, it's a simple fact of being more understanding about those who actually have abortions and I applaud you for having the courage to make this post.

kia_breizzze wrote:


i mean, technically I must be pro-choice as I had an abortion after I was raped - almost 10 years ago.

having an abortion doesn't mean that you have to be pro-choice. I know at least 5 women who have become pro-life following their abortions, peoples opinions change.


kia_breizzze wrote:
but, I can't accept ow some people use abortion as a form of birth control - the whole "yeah, it won't happen to me and if it does, then i'll just have an abortion" - that is what I find wrong.

abortion is birth control though - it's the ultimate birth control in that it stops you giveing birth! I do think though that those with a very relaxed opinion about abortion (as you mentioned above) are very few. It's not a nice thing to go through and even women who have multiple abortions, on the whole, do not think like that. Both of my pregnancies were through failed contraception and the thought of abortion it terified me, even though I knew it was best for me.


kia_breizzze wrote:
what I want to see is people encouraged to wait, better birth control education, better sex ed all round - better prevention.

totally with you on this, sex education is rubbish.


kia_breizzze wrote:
here in the uk there really is no reason to not use birth control.

Your family doctor can not tell your parents (or anyone else) if he prescribes birth control meds to you.

Birth control is free in this country to everyone.

Sure condoms are priced in the shops but can be obtained from any family planning or well woman clinic free.

With that availability I can not understand why there are so many accidental pregnancies..

failed contraception, embarrassement to be given birth control, being unaware of where to obtain free condoms etc... This is the stuff that needs to be taught along with sex education, remove the embarrassement and then young people wont feel bad about obtaining these services. I know that when I was younger I had a split condom with my bf and I had no idea where to go to obtain the map and was too embarrassed to go to my gp because i'd never been or been told where to obtain these services. That's why we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in europe because our sex ed is pathetic!
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replied November 11th, 2006
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moo wrote:
abortion is birth control though - it's the ultimate birth control in that it stops you giveing birth!

i personally think birth control is mis-named, it should be "pregnancy control" rather than birth control, because yes in the strictest sense of the term abortion is birth control.

Birth control, usually refers to prevention of pregnancy though.

Abortion does not prevent pregnancy and preventative measures should be used as much as possible for those that do not wish to conceive.

Quote:
failed contraception, embarrassement to be given birth control, being unaware of where to obtain free condoms etc... This is the stuff that needs to be taught along with sex education, remove the embarrassement and then young people wont feel bad about obtaining these services. I know that when I was younger I had a split condom with my bf and I had no idea where to go to obtain the map and was too embarrassed to go to my gp because i'd never been or been told where to obtain these services. That's why we have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in europe because our sex ed is pathetic!

yes, yes, and yes. Although I disagree to an extent that our sex ed is pathetic.

At the high school I attended we had sex ed with a wonderful old dear, who talked so openly about sex and didn't mince her words. She promoted the fact that waiting is good, saying no is fine, but if you're gonna do it anyway - here's how to do it safely.

Her office was open to students at all times.

Every lesson she had a marge tub full of condoms on her desk and in her office - you were welcome to take them at any time.

Did this encourage sex? Maybe, maybe not - but the pregnancy figures spoke for themselves.

She didn't teach the year group below us - they had 15 pregnancies by the end of year 10. Our year group (which was bigger by around 50 students) had 3 by the end of year 11.

We knew how and where to get the morning after pill, regular b/c pill, condoms and how to use them - yes, she had us all practise the right way to put a condom on (obviously minus a real penis).

Schools need more sex ed teachers like her.

No-one skipped her sex ed classes, there was no shame or embarrasment - everything was just outright and in plain english.

Iirc during our first lesson, she had everyone come up with various words for "our bits" - "now, that's out of the way we can move on".

I was fortunate, I know, but that level of education should be available to everyone.
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replied November 11th, 2006
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kia_breizzze wrote:


at the high school I attended we had sex ed with a wonderful old dear, who talked so openly about sex and didn't mince her words. She promoted the fact that waiting is good, saying no is fine, but if you're gonna do it anyway - here's how to do it safely.


Her office was open to students at all times.


Every lesson she had a marge tub full of condoms on her desk and in her office - you were welcome to take them at any time.

that's what we need. I had some mebarrassed old guy who taught us at 15 the basic biology of it, it was resiculous.


kia_breizzze wrote:
did this encourage sex? Maybe, maybe not - but the pregnancy figures spoke for themselves.

think what more people need to realise is that if people are going to have sex then they are - regarldess of what others think so it makes sense that they're protected, it's just common sense.


She didn't teach the year group below us - they had 15 pregnancies by the end of year 10. Our year group (which was bigger by around 50 students) had 3 by the end of year 11.


We knew how and where to get the morning after pill, regular b/c pill, condoms and how to use them - yes, she had us all practise the right way to put a condom on (obviously minus a real penis).


S
kia_breizzze wrote:
chools need more sex ed teachers like her...



I was fortunate, I know, but that level of education should be available to everyone.

i think this is so true and it's the only real way to lower the pregnancy rates amongst young people (and in turn, abortion rates)
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replied November 17th, 2006
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Re: This Is Really Hard For Me...
paganangel wrote:
i'm getting more uncomfortable everyday with the whole pro-choice/pro-life fight. Honestly this is hard to admit (very hard, i'm hard headed and not quick to admit things at times) i've really came to see the pro-choice view better and i'm just not comfortable anymore trying to tell anyone what they can do with their lives. I've really started to realize this with a lot of the marriage/gay marriage debates. Once you start controlling one persons life it leaves you open to control other lives and i'm really see how this is wrong. I'm not saying "yay let's all have abortions" but I am saying that not everyone thinks like me and I can't tell someone what they should or shouldn't do.

I guess you all can say that i've opened my eyes. I am still very much pro-life for myself. I could never harm something that is a part of me but honestly I can't judge what someone else is going through. I don't know their pain and their hurt and their situation.



I came here a long time ago think that selfish who*res were the only people who had abortions...I honestly believe that just isn't true.


I'm sorry if my pro-life friends feel that I have let them down but I just can't worry my life over what someone else is doing anymore.

We all deserve happiness, love and respect. I can't respect another human by thinking they are too incompetant to make their own choices.


Okay that's all...I feel like a total hypocrit now but honestly I started to sway a little this way during the marriage debates and it's time for me to switch sides and go with what I truly believe in.


come back into the light pagan leave the darkness behind..........We have milk and cookies Laughing Laughing Wink
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replied November 28th, 2006
Pagan Hun
Don't do it wow this place has changed but I never expected you to compromise your beleifs hun but saying that looking at the state of this board it is hardly surprising that a lot of pro lifers feel railroaded into thinking they are turning but not you hun you and I both know that once you have thought it through you will realise that we are the ones that care not them .

I'm not sure yet wether I will be back for good yet hun but I will be lurking if you want me yell give big man a hug from me

laters hun
fishx Wink
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replied November 28th, 2006
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The last two posts are from the same person!

Why should she not change her mind, none of us have stated she needs to change sides because that is her decision to make and not yours!

People have a right to make choice and for someone to tell her she needs to stay where she is, is like telling someone they need to regress in life!

People who are open minded are pro-choice but it is possible to be prolife and still be openminded, some lots of pro-life dont see it that way though~!
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replied November 28th, 2006
diamondsz wrote:
the last two posts are from the same person!



Why should she not change her mind, none of us have stated she needs to change sides because that is her decision to make and not yours!



People have a right to make choice and for someone to tell her she needs to stay where she is, is like telling someone they need to regress in life!



People who are open minded are pro-choice but it is possible to be prolife and still be openminded, some lots of pro-life dont see it that way though~!



everyone that actually knows me knows that the last 2 posts are from the same person way to state the obviouse and as I know pagan better than anyone else on here I know for a fact that she will think about what really matters to her and come back over to pro life I havent told her to do anything but think about how she really feels the fact that pagan has not been back since making this post shows a lot of how she is feeling.


I have never made any secret of the fact that fishx and diamond splinter are one and the same and don't intend to do so now it is just time that fishx was brought back to posting again makes it easier for lurkers to know who is posting what as I said i'm not sure if fishx is back for good or if I will continue to post as d.S
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replied November 28th, 2006
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phishx wrote:
diamondsz wrote:
the last two posts are from the same person!

Why should she not change her mind, none of us have stated she needs to change sides because that is her decision to make and not yours!

People have a right to make choice and for someone to tell her she needs to stay where she is, is like telling someone they need to regress in life!

People who are open minded are pro-choice but it is possible to be prolife and still be openminded, some lots of pro-life dont see it that way though~!


everyone that actually knows me knows that the last 2 posts are from the same person way to state the obviouse and as I know pagan better than anyone else on here I know for a fact that she will think about what really matters to her and come back over to pro life I havent told her to do anything but think about how she really feels the fact that pagan has not been back since making this post shows a lot of how she is feeling.

I have never made any secret of the fact that fishx and diamond splinter are one and the same and don't intend to do so now it is just time that fishx was brought back to posting again makes it easier for lurkers to know who is posting what as I said i'm not sure if fishx is back for good or if I will continue to post as d.S


i did not know that phishx and diamond splinter was the same person.

Next...

What truly matters to her seems to be opening her mind and being able to consider the other side. She doesn't want to blindly follow ideals. She is finding herself actually considering the feelings of these women who abort; she is discovering sympathy. When this happened, she realised that her previous ideas had been too black and white; but that the issue of abortion is not.
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replied November 28th, 2006
eiri wrote:
phishx wrote:
diamondsz wrote:
the last two posts are from the same person!


Why should she not change her mind, none of us have stated she needs to change sides because that is her decision to make and not yours!


People have a right to make choice and for someone to tell her she needs to stay where she is, is like telling someone they need to regress in life!


People who are open minded are pro-choice but it is possible to be prolife and still be openminded, some lots of pro-life dont see it that way though~!


everyone that actually knows me knows that the last 2 posts are from the same person way to state the obviouse and as I know pagan better than anyone else on here I know for a fact that she will think about what really matters to her and come back over to pro life I havent told her to do anything but think about how she really feels the fact that pagan has not been back since making this post shows a lot of how she is feeling.


I have never made any secret of the fact that fishx and diamond splinter are one and the same and don't intend to do so now it is just time that fishx was brought back to posting again makes it easier for lurkers to know who is posting what as I said i'm not sure if fishx is back for good or if I will continue to post as d.S


i did not know that phishx and diamond splinter was the same person.

Next...


What truly matters to her seems to be opening her mind and being able to consider the other side. She doesn't want to blindly follow ideals. She is finding herself actually considering the feelings of these women who abort; she is discovering sympathy. When this happened, she realised that her previous ideas had been too black and white; but that the issue of abortion is not.



and you don't really know me you only know me through this site
next..........
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replied November 28th, 2006
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eiri wrote:
phishx wrote:
diamondsz wrote:
the last two posts are from the same person!


Why should she not change her mind, none of us have stated she needs to change sides because that is her decision to make and not yours!


People have a right to make choice and for someone to tell her she needs to stay where she is, is like telling someone they need to regress in life!


People who are open minded are pro-choice but it is possible to be prolife and still be openminded, some lots of pro-life dont see it that way though~!


everyone that actually knows me knows that the last 2 posts are from the same person way to state the obviouse and as I know pagan better than anyone else on here I know for a fact that she will think about what really matters to her and come back over to pro life I havent told her to do anything but think about how she really feels the fact that pagan has not been back since making this post shows a lot of how she is feeling.


I have never made any secret of the fact that fishx and diamond splinter are one and the same and don't intend to do so now it is just time that fishx was brought back to posting again makes it easier for lurkers to know who is posting what as I said i'm not sure if fishx is back for good or if I will continue to post as d.S


i did not know that phishx and diamond splinter was the same person.

Next...


What truly matters to her seems to be opening her mind and being able to consider the other side. She doesn't want to blindly follow ideals. She is finding herself actually considering the feelings of these women who abort; she is discovering sympathy. When this happened, she realised that her previous ideas had been too black and white; but that the issue of abortion is not.



how arrogant are you pro choicers to assume that because someone is pro life they have no sympathy.
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