Abortion Debate Forum - Parents Kidnap Daughter to Have Abortion

Tylanas

replied on September 17th, 2006

Especially eHealthy

Oh my god, that's horrible! That poor girl... I hope she's able to make her own desicion now. It's just so sad her parent were too closeminded to listen to her... Di she even get a chance to say what she wanted to do? For all they knew, she did want an abortion... I don't think many women would want one after that kind of abuse...

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Meandering Away

replied on September 17th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

stillherelosers wrote:

this is exactly what anti choicers want... They want parents of pregnant women to have the right to force their choice on them. Guess when the tables are turned and the parents want a termination, choice is all about the pregnant woman, huh? Hypocrits.

back up your stupid claim and prove that women are being forced to give birth.Amazing your hypocrisy knows no bounds you sit and are happy that some woman has lost her choice, typical of you.

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Meandering Away

replied on September 17th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

cambion wrote:

no one can force you to have an abortion unless your spouse drugged you and performed the abortion himself. Why are you staying with someone who makes you do things against your will? Would you stay with this man if he raped you on a regular basis? You aren't someone's property, so don't allow yourself to be treated as such.

can they not, care to rethink your position on this and I am sure there are a lot more, I have yet to hear of anyone being forced to carry to term.

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Jules

replied on September 17th, 2006

Extremely eHealthy

Just out of interest, anyone know what the legal stance is on forcing a minor to have an abortion? I assume that this woman, being over 18 years old, was considered an adult but what if she was 13? Would she then have the right to make her own choice or would her parents have the power to overide her wishes?

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diamond splinter

replied on September 17th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

purestgreen wrote:

just out of interest, anyone know what the legal stance is on forcing a minor to have an abortion? I assume that this woman, being over 18 years old, was considered an adult but what if she was 13? Would she then have the right to make her own choice or would her parents have the power to overide her wishes?

there are no parental notification laws her parents wouldn't even have to know

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Tazzy D

replied on September 17th, 2006

Advanced Support Team

According to the post it doesnt stipulate what the girls decision was or is, I hope that the parents rot in jail for their act..

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sandyallen

replied on September 17th, 2006

Extremely eHealthy

Omg, their is something wrong with these people, they look older then that, I think they are a couple of a bricks short, anyone that would do that to their daughter or any adult is sick! I just hope that the daughter gets the help she needs both physically and mentally! Like .Eiri said, maybe she might have wanted the abortion and if she does not abort, I hope that no harm will come to the fetus due to this. I am sure that it would be a terrible way to remember your parents. I hope that she does have friends or other family members to go to in this time of need. I know that this is not what pro-choice is about! This is pure sick! I know that I am pro-choice and I would never do this to my child if she were 15y/o or 30y/o, it would be her decision and I would help her out in anyway that I can along with my son if he were to get his girlfriend pregnant, I would help them but I would not raise them unless they past away.
You know though something like this makes youg girls afraid to tell their parents but they must realize thaat parents like these are very, very rare.

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Tylanas

replied on September 17th, 2006

Especially eHealthy

cowboys wrote:

stillherelosers wrote:

this is exactly what anti choicers want... They want parents of pregnant women to have the right to force their choice on them. Guess when the tables are turned and the parents want a termination, choice is all about the pregnant woman, huh? Hypocrits.

back up your stupid claim and prove that women are being forced to give birth.Amazing your hypocrisy knows no bounds you sit and are happy that some woman has lost her choice, typical of you.

this story just as easily could have been parents tying up a daughter who wanted to abort and hiding her in the countryside... But that of course would never make the news as such a human travesty since the girl wanted to "kill her poor baby!". Obviously her parents knew what was best for her!!

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Meandering Away

replied on September 18th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

eiri wrote:

cowboys wrote:

stillherelosers wrote:

this is exactly what anti choicers want... They want parents of pregnant women to have the right to force their choice on them. Guess when the tables are turned and the parents want a termination, choice is all about the pregnant woman, huh? Hypocrits.

back up your stupid claim and prove that women are being forced to give birth.Amazing your hypocrisy knows no bounds you sit and are happy that some woman has lost her choice, typical of you.

this story just as easily could have been parents tying up a daughter who wanted to abort and hiding her in the countryside... But that of course would never make the news as such a human travesty since the girl wanted to "kill her poor baby!". obviously her parents knew what was best for her!!.

that was meant sarcastically I hope.I am sure if someone wanted to abort and was forced to continue wih the birth they would make a stink big enough for the news to pick up on, where is the proof that this happens where are the headlines the news reports, not just " it happens but isnt reported " thats bull because they would report it.

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Tylanas

replied on September 18th, 2006

Especially eHealthy

Duh. You know me well enough; do you really think i'd actually believe parents have the right to force their 19 year odl daughter to abort, adopt or keep the child?

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jenn_smithson

replied on September 18th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

purestgreen wrote:

just out of interest, anyone know what the legal stance is on forcing a minor to have an abortion? I assume that this woman, being over 18 years old, was considered an adult but what if she was 13? Would she then have the right to make her own choice or would her parents have the power to overide her wishes?

bottom line: every woman, no matter if she's 14 or 44, has the right to make the decision herself and for herself. No one can force a woman to obtain an abortion against her will even if she is a minor.

They can put social, family, and financial pressure on her but at the end of the situation, she still has to make the final decision to have the abortion. It is against the law to perform an abortion on an unwilling woman, no matter what her age is.

Many times you hear women report that they felt that the didn't really have a choice but because of the chance of a lawsuit, the woman is asked, repeatedly, whether she is there by her own choice or not. If she chooses to go along with what her parents are telling her to do then she is still making the choice to have the abortion though many young women in this situation claim that they were "forced."

pressure, arguments, and even altercations are not considered to be anything but what they are - pressure. Binding your daughter with tape and tossing her in the back of the family car is attempting to force her to do something against her will.

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nightangel73

replied on September 18th, 2006

Extremely eHealthy

jenn_smithson wrote:

it is against the law to perform an abortion on an unwilling woman, no matter what her age is.

Many times you hear women report that they felt that the didn't really have a choice but because of the chance of a lawsuit, the woman is asked, repeatedly, whether she is there by her own choice or not. If she chooses to go along with what her parents are telling her to do then she is still making the choice to have the abortion though many young women in this situation claim that they were "forced."

yeah that's what we hear often jenn. They say they were forced and it's hard to understand because I wonder wouldn't they were asked if they were there by her own choice? I am medical interpreter and I was trained whenever it comes to hospital a woman injured interpreter has to be aware that the husband could be coercing her to say the injury was accidental and that wasn't him beating her up. We are trained to be present inspite the woman chooses the husband to be the interpreter. I guess in abortion clinics happens the same just that probably nobody cares whether the woman is being coerced to say she wants abortion. Makes sense as the abortion clinic business is to perform abortions.

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Tylanas

replied on September 19th, 2006

Especially eHealthy

If they are forced, then they often might not have the courage to say "no" in the abortion clinic themselves. Just because they concede to the abortion doesn't mean they wanted it. Theymay often lie out of fear when asked by practitioners; more frightened of what their family may do to them than anything else. Get off your high horse... The people working at an abortion clinic do care more than you want to admit. If you can write them off as cold and callous then you can handle it better. And tons of abused women slip through the cracks in hospitals all the darn time, despite all of you "trained" people. The people working at clinics are trained too, but if a woman says yes, even if she doesn't mean it, the people at the clinic can't deny her the abortion even if it's not what she truly wants. She said yes.

The problem here isn't the abortion clinics, it is the girl's family for being evil enough to force her to abort. Think about who is really at fault in this situation, and blame them.

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trina1

replied on September 19th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

[quote="jenn_smithson"]

purestgreen wrote:

many times you hear women report that they felt that the didn't really have a choice but because of the chance of a lawsuit, the woman is asked, repeatedly, whether she is there by her own choice or not. If she chooses to go along with what her parents are telling her to do then she is still making the choice to have the abortion though many young women in this situation claim that they were "forced."

one thing you are forgetting is "emotional" force. Someone can feel mentally forced and it is just as powerful...In some cases more so than physical force. Take a young girl...Say 15. If she is raped and her parents say "you are going to have an abortion," she is thrust into a mental and emotional situation that possibly her mind is too immature to handle. She has the stess and pain of the rape...Compounded with a sudden pregnancy. Now add to that a parent saying "either you have an abortion or you will not live under my roof and I will have nothing more to do with you," and this girl is on overload. She has no past experience or maturity in which to process this situation....And all she knows is that if she doesn't do what her parents say....She is going to lose everything she has ever known. That is emotional force. The same is true if her parents want her to keep the baby and use the same tactics. This is also why women who are abused often times don't leave the situation....Because they feel emotionally forced to stay. It also explains alot of young children who are sexually abused not pulling themselves away from the situation or telling someone. So physical force is not the only force that needs to be looked at in these situations. Even a judge will tell you that.

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jenn_smithson

replied on September 19th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

eiri wrote:

if they are forced, then they often might not have the courage to say "no" in the abortion clinic themselves. Just because they concede to the abortion doesn't mean they wanted it.

they still chose to go through with the procedure. It is illegal and unethical to perform any procedure on an unwilling person. If the young woman did not want the abortion, (in all of the clinics that I am associated with) then she is given ample opportunity to say so and we turn those who do away.

During the interview, they are asked why they are there. If they give any answer that is not because I "want" or "need" an abortion, they are turned away. We have had many, many, many young women tell us that the only reason they are there is because their parents are making them. We turn them away.

Making no choice, going along with what you are told is still making a choice. To quote a song (forgive me for doing so) "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

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theymay often lie out of fear when asked by practitioners; more frightened of what their family may do to them than anything else.

which is why they are asked several times. They are specifically asked not only about their family dynamics but also about the relationship that produced the pregnancy. If there is any whif of indecision, they are turned away. They can always come back if they make up their minds but they won't be getting an abortion that day. We also have little tricks we use to get people to tell us the truth when they are sitting with us.

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get off your high horse... The people working at an abortion clinic do care more than you want to admit. If you can write them off as cold and callous then you can handle it better. And tons of abused women slip through the cracks in hospitals all the darn time, despite all of you "trained" people.

what the hell are you talking about? I work in a clinic and I volunteer on ab days at another clinic. I know, firsthand what the procedure is and how it is performed.

And, abused women are the ones who tell us, regularly, that they "need" an abortion because they cannot become trapped to that man. I have seen zero abused women who wanted to keep the pregnancy because it would tie them to their abuser forever.

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the people working at clinics are trained too, but if a woman says yes, even if she doesn't mean it, the people at the clinic can't deny her the abortion even if it's not what she truly wants.

yes they can. If there is any indication of abuse, incest, or unwillingness to be have the procedure, then the people working at the clinic have every right to refuse service to her that day. We do not have to provide services to every woman just because she showed up for her appointment that day.

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she said yes.

and in the end, she needs to own that decision as her own despite if her family pressured her or not. She was not forced if, at the end of her interview and after being asked countless times, she said yes.

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the problem here isn't the abortion clinics, it is the girl's family for being evil enough to force her to abort.

if she is not there by her own choice, it is her responsibility to tell someone so that the situation can be rectified. And while this is a scenario that is certainly enjoying a lot of play time on the internet, it is not one that we see with any regularity. Out of the two years that I have been working at the clinic, I have seen 2, 2, young women who did not want to be there that day, who were brought by their parent(s). Neither young woman received an abortion with us that day because they told us, point blank when asked outside of their parent(s) supervision, that their parents were "making" them come there. 2 out of thousands.

If a young woman is experiencing pressure from her family to abort or to keep the pregnancy against her will, she needs to seek help from another trusted adult - the school counselor, nurse, a teacher, someone at church, a friends parent, etc. If her parents threaten to kick her out of the house unless she conforms to their wishes, there are places where she can go for help and shelter who also have trained staff to help her with her parents.

Pressure from family, boyfriends, husbands, whoever, is still pressure and every woman who chooses to obtain an abortion is going to experience some form of pressure. However, choosing to roll over and do whatever someone else tells you to do is still a choice and one that does not need to be made. There are resources available and legal help available for young women who do not want to be their parents door mat.

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think about who is really at fault in this situation, and blame them.

the woman is not blameless in this situation either. I am not vindicating or supporting parents who would try to force their child to do something that they do not want to do. However, since it is illegal to perform an abortion on an unwilling woman and since all women have to sign that they want the abortion, the woman is still making the choice whether she is pressured or not. Letting people walk all over you is a choice.

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jenn_smithson

replied on September 19th, 2006

Active User, very eHealthy

trina1 wrote:

one thing you are forgetting is "emotional" force. Someone can feel mentally forced and it is just as powerful...In some cases more so than physical force.

I am not "forgetting" emotional force and neither do clinic workers. The counseling process is designed to weed out whether the woman actually wants to be there or whether she feels pressured to be there by other persons. Those being pressured are asked if they are certain that they want/need an abortion. If they say yes, they are continued on the process and asked again before the procedure is performed. We give women every opportunity to say that they do not want the abortion. We, also, help them own the decision if they choose to stay. It helps no one, not the woman nor abortion providers, to claim that they were forced to have an abortion. However, bowing to societal or family pressures and having an abortion is still a choice and the woman in question needs to own her decisions in life.

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take a young girl...Say 15. If she is raped and her parents say "you are going to have an abortion," she is thrust into a mental and emotional situation that possibly her mind is too immature to handle. She has the stess and pain of the rape...Compounded with a sudden pregnancy.

since we question every woman about the "relationship" that resulted in the pregnancy, we would discover that rape is involved and the authorities would be contacted immediately. In fact, we would keep the young woman separated from her parent(s) until they arrived so that the authorities can get the true story from the young woman without interference by the parent. The young woman would probably be taken into protective custody at that time and other trained professionals would take over the case at that time. The young woman would not, under any circumstances, receive the abortion at our facilities on that day. She is welcome to come back if and when she makes her mind up.

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now add to that a parent saying "either you have an abortion or you will not live under my roof and I will have nothing more to do with you," and this girl is on overload.

to which trained counselors would get her the help she needs. Since the police would be involved anyway due to the rape, she would be placed in protective custody. She could very well choose to remain in protective custody instead of returning to horrible parents who do not care about her well being.

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she has no past experience or maturity in which to process this situation....And all she knows is that if she doesn't do what her parents say....She is going to lose everything she has ever known. That is emotional force.

I understand emotional force. However, since there are avenues available to get other help outside of your parents, the young woman in question does not have to get an abortion unless she agrees to allow her parents to use and abuse her in that way. In which case, she is still making a choice. It may not be the best of choices available but it is a choice nonetheless.

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the same is true if her parents want her to keep the baby and use the same tactics.

a judicial bypass is easily obtained for the young woman who is pregnant and chooses not to keep the pregnancy.

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this is also why women who are abused often times don't leave the situation....Because they feel emotionally forced to stay.

women of true abuse often obtain abortions so that they will not be tied to their abuser forever. They may feel compelled, emotionally, to stay but they are not physcially forced to stay just as they are not physically forced to obtain an abortion.

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it also explains alot of young children who are sexually abused not pulling themselves away from the situation or telling someone. So physical force is not the only force that needs to be looked at in these situations. Even a judge will tell you that.

a judge will also tell you that if the woman is given several opportunities to make her true "decision" known and does not, that she was not forced to undergo the procedure. If she goes through the counseling, signs all paperwork, and does nothing to halt the sequence of events then she chose to have that abortion.

Do you honestly think that cases like these have not come up before?

Emotional pressure is not the same as being bound, gagged, thrown in the back of the car because your parents are attempting to obtain an abortion for you.

Financial pressure is not the same as being forced to obtain an abortion.

Family pressure is not the same as being forced to obtain an abortion.

.A.L.L women who choose to obtain an abortion are under some sort of pressure or another. However, after being given ample opportunity to walk away, they have to accept and own their decision to remain and obtain the abortion.

Pressure is pressure. Calling it anything else does a great disservice to women because it presupposes that we are not capable of making the choice ourselves, that the only reason we have abortions is because some aspect of our lives is "forcing" us to do so. It's time to own our decisions and choices in life.

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Tylanas

replied on September 19th, 2006

Especially eHealthy

jenn_smithson wrote:

eiri wrote:

if they are forced, then they often might not have the courage to say "no" in the abortion clinic themselves. Just because they concede to the abortion doesn't mean they wanted it.

they still chose to go through with the procedure. It is illegal and unethical to perform any procedure on an unwilling person. If the young woman did not want the abortion, (in all of the clinics that I am associated with) then she is given ample opportunity to say so and we turn those who do away.

During the interview, they are asked why they are there. If they give any answer that is not because I "want" or "need" an abortion, they are turned away. We have had many, many, many young women tell us that the only reason they are there is because their parents are making them. We turn them away.

Making no choice, going along with what you are told is still making a choice. To quote a song (forgive me for doing so) "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Quote:

theymay often lie out of fear when asked by practitioners; more frightened of what their family may do to them than anything else.

which is why they are asked several times. They are specifically asked not only about their family dynamics but also about the relationship that produced the pregnancy. If there is any whif of indecision, they are turned away. They can always come back if they make up their minds but they won't be getting an abortion that day. We also have little tricks we use to get people to tell us the truth when they are sitting with us.

Quote:

get off your high horse... The people working at an abortion clinic do care more than you want to admit. If you can write them off as cold and callous then you can handle it better. And tons of abused women slip through the cracks in hospitals all the darn time, despite all of you "trained" people.

what the hell are you talking about? I work in a clinic and I volunteer on ab days at another clinic. I know, firsthand what the procedure is and how it is performed.

And, abused women are the ones who tell us, regularly, that they "need" an abortion because they cannot become trapped to that man. I have seen zero abused women who wanted to keep the pregnancy because it would tie them to their abuser forever.

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the people working at clinics are trained too, but if a woman says yes, even if she doesn't mean it, the people at the clinic can't deny her the abortion even if it's not what she truly wants.

yes they can. If there is any indication of abuse, incest, or unwillingness to be have the procedure, then the people working at the clinic have every right to refuse service to her that day. We do not have to provide services to every woman just because she showed up for her appointment that day.

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she said yes.

and in the end, she needs to own that decision as her own despite if her family pressured her or not. She was not forced if, at the end of her interview and after being asked countless times, she said yes.

Quote:

the problem here isn't the abortion clinics, it is the girl's family for being evil enough to force her to abort.

if she is not there by her own choice, it is her responsibility to tell someone so that the situation can be rectified. And while this is a scenario that is certainly enjoying a lot of play time on the internet, it is not one that we see with any regularity. Out of the two years that I have been working at the clinic, I have seen 2, 2, young women who did not want to be there that day, who were brought by their parent(s). Neither young woman received an abortion with us that day because they told us, point blank when asked outside of their parent(s) supervision, that their parents were "making" them come there. 2 out of thousands.

If a young woman is experiencing pressure from her family to abort or to keep the pregnancy against her will, she needs to seek help from another trusted adult - the school counselor, nurse, a teacher, someone at church, a friends parent, etc. If her parents threaten to kick her out of the house unless she conforms to their wishes, there are places where she can go for help and shelter who also have trained staff to help her with her parents.

Pressure from family, boyfriends, husbands, whoever, is still pressure and every woman who chooses to obtain an abortion is going to experience some form of pressure. However, choosing to roll over and do whatever someone else tells you to do is still a choice and one that does not need to be made. There are resources available and legal help available for young women who do not want to be their parents door mat.

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think about who is really at fault in this situation, and blame them.

the woman is not blameless in this situation either. I am not vindicating or supporting parents who would try to force their child to do something that they do not want to do. However, since it is illegal to perform an abortion on an unwilling woman and since all women have to sign that they want the abortion, the woman is still making the choice whether she is pressured or not. Letting people walk all over you is a choice.

jenn! Don't attack me for god's sake! Apparently I was severely misinformed; however that is no reason to get angry. It is a good time to educate me.

However... I was defending pro-choice the whole time, so... I still believe that the abusive family should be blamed before the abortion clinic, which was really my point.

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nightangel73

replied on September 19th, 2006

Extremely eHealthy

eiri wrote:

jenn! Don't attack me for god's sake! Apparently I was severely misinformed; however that is no reason to get angry. It is a good time to educate me.

However... I was defending pro-choice the whole time, so... I still believe that the abusive family should be blamed before the abortion clinic, which was really my point.

jenn wasn't attacking you eiri and it doesn't seem like she got angry neither. She is just informing you.

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nightangel73

replied on September 19th, 2006

Extremely eHealthy

Jenn glad to hear that at your clinic they make sure the woman is not being coerced to have abortion. They should all be that way. From what we read here it seems that not all abortion clinics are like that.

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