Self-interest And Love

Watch this people. I'm going to create another thread. I'll repost my thesis in there, and watch them follow me into that thread. I own them and can make them do what I want. Even over the net. I mean, they're posting in a thread I created.

:twisted:

See what I mean people?

Even when they say they are going to ignore me, I can make them talk to me anytime I want ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

I am their puppeteer! :wink:

Mel just let it go we can just talk on this thread I dont care he can post 50 thread and put my name in it I just dont care anyways are you gonna tell me what happened or what..

In the end if you dont respond he will have to stop he doesnt make sense and believes that if people dont follow his will they are stupid and in the end it makes him wrong because no one can be forced into a sitiuation it is a choice.

But anyways off topic again I want details hunny bunny

Dont stoop to his level mel he has better things to just remeber you own your own place, you have a good job, you have everything and more and that makes you better than him.

Hun look at it this way you have a $hitload of people who like you here and well he is just one itty bitty person who doesnt do anything and no matter what we say he will disgaree because that is his nature.

Im sending you hugz I have real friends you being one and $hitloads more I ll talk to people who actually make sense

Are ma b*tches are talkin' about me again? :wink:

you are trippin'. You are my village ho. My foot is on your face girly! Now go get me ma pie! :twisted:

K cool anyways I got to get ready for work

Oh meliiiisaaaaar,

you want me to take my belt off? Where's ma pie?

G.O. G.E.T. I.T.!

:evil:

Well that was easy. :shock: the stupid are easily manipulated. 8)

I saw your self interest post and wanted to ask a question.You say we do things and are with people basically to please ourselves.Here;s this. We hear every now and then that someone got shot or hit by a car and yet that was meant for someone else.Instead the person who did get shot or hit, pushed the intended person out of the way very well knowing the consiquences of their actions.To me that is a selfless act.The perason who got hit got noghtin out of it but hurt and most likely death.I highly doubt they wanted to die,but would rather not see their other half/friend relative die

Well, as I explained when I talked about altruism, and where I discussed parents and the disowning of their children, due to that parent's religio-cultural and social influences. The parent's point of view is:

(i do not believe this to be right; so I don't want anything to do with you anymore).

How could they do this? What will they gain from never talking to their children again? You may not see it, but they do. Even if they did it because of someone else (say a mother disowns her children because her husband say she should), she's obviously doing this out of fear of him, or because she would never hear the end of it if she didn't.

i fear him; therefore for my sense of safety, or piece of mind (or what-have-you), I will do this even though I don't want to.

In the case of an altruistic act, obviously their level of interest in not seeing that other person hurt over-rides their level of interest in 'self-preservation'. The complete opposite would be cases in which a person's level of interest in 'self-preservation' overrides their interest in helping others. An example would be when a son kills his parents so as to inherit their fortune, for example.

But it is all self-interest; or in other words, what do i want to see happen to them; or happen in this situation. What would give me a sense of personal satisfaction as regards the outcome? Do i want them to die, or do i want them to live?

Where one gives their life to save another, they are probably not consciously thinking of dieing; but they are motivated by a level of interest so strong enough as to be willing to risk it without stopping to think; an automated response, based on their upbringing and therefore their intense desire for another's welfare; or an outcome they believe is (and should be) the proper one.

What do they desire? And as you know, desire stems from personal interest. 'self-interest' just takes on different outer appearances, that are either evil or good in nature.

What led you to think this? We're you ever 'in love' before you came about this conclusion? I saw in another post that you had been married, what happened to your marriage?

What happens in every other marriage or relationship that does not go the distance; the focus of our self-interests changed.

Interesting debate, uzaman. I enjoy taking in your perspective.

Well, to begin, I believe that love practiced between people is just that: practice. Humans practice love by considering the needs of "the other"...And over time, this becomes more and more refined until self-interest is washed out like dirty laundry. Now, you may ask, "does there exist a perfect love?"

although momentary fleeting, I have felt at times, that love was, indeed, existing in the space between me and an object (person, thing, something outside of "me). I have experienced a harmony in the universe. I have been lifted by extreme beauty. The conundrum therein: in all experiences, "i" was not controlling nor producing the effect, "i" was simply experiencing it. And this is where the ideal comes in that I spoke of. In other words, I believe that love can be channeled. It is there, accessible to be channeled and practiced. And this is the experience I have talked about. Have you, uzaman, practiced love?

"but why?" you may ask. Why practice love? And isn't it self-interest that propels this development? Well, yes...Pain, I concede, is the biggest motivator of all human growth. But who cares? The important thing is that one is willing to change, to grow, to become something bigger...After all, levels of development proceded: help self, refine self, help all.

In order to get out of "self", I believe that understanding the connectedness of all matter on the material plane is necessary. A big leap in logic, and this is where we may part. Because, uzaman, unless you believe that you and I are essentially rooted in the same stuff...That we are more alike than different, we've just got to throw in the towel and agree to disagree. If, however, you acknowledge that we are humans that desire many of the same things, that make the same mistakes, and have the capacity to become better...Now we're talking.

You know the golden rule, right? Well, imagine the world participating actively in the precept, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." not too shabby? Because if you necessarily believe that whatever anyone does, thinks, or feels effects the whole...You can see how practiced love can begin to change the history, change the behaviors and the reactions, change the future.

Finally, I do not purport to "know" what the challenge if life is; I simply believe that if life (ie. Existence, consciouness) is to be lived only to propegate the survival of the species via progeneration, this discounts any purpose for individuals. In fact, belief in purpose (ie. Faith) increases the odds that you will find love.

It helps to have a mentor or a teacher, I have found.

Peace.

And your points are all well taken but...

With all due respect; what you describe is what ought to be; not what is among the many. Certainly, if things improved with time, you would have little to no need for places like this; marriage councellors, divorce lawyers. You describe the ideal, not the reality, as attested by the regularity with which long-term relationships manifest themselves as having been abusive; together with the rising prevalence of broken marriages.

And if I may briefly venture outside the realm of romantic relationships, I believe this discussion on love merely being 'self-interest' to include rancor between peoples of differing political or religious (in the name of our supreme and loving god, we do hereby take...) ideologies; generation after 'self-interested' generation. I'm not denying the existence of apotheosized (or divine) love; just the human collective's capacity for it in their present state.

I mean, the third reich (if you read hitler's speeches) had leanings toward the christian 'faith'. The vatican legitimized the nazi party in the eyes of christians the world over in their signing of the 'concordat'.
Why? Simply because they believed hitler was going to win, and that they would thus become inordinately powerful if they sided with him.

My point is that humanity is not demonstrating any capacity for the kind of (real) spiritual growth you talk about; or for moral improvement; only for technological progress and political expediency; survival.
Humans only treat each other well when the exigencies of a particular situation call for it, and it is therefore in their interests. Hence, nations seek allies, and strike peace agreements, only to break their peace agreements and invade their allies.

Or they fight for revolution, only for 'the good fight' to degenerate into yet another instance of 'totalitarian despotism' -- once those, who have self-appointed themselves 'leader', become too enamoured with their power and what it can do for them.

But getting back to relationships; I don't believe time to be the deciding factor in whether two people are able to overcome their base desire, and truly love one another; but (self)interest is (a deciding factor) as regards a relationship's life-span, or whether a relationship exists at all. They 'loved each other' and wanted to spend the rest of their lives together; now they don't.

I do; I don't; and i is the essense of self-interest. With time, one may learn to appreciate their partner; for what it is 'the other' has contributed to their life; or even to the lives of others; in which case, the fact that they have contributed to the lives of others lies concordant with their own values.

i like/appreciate/value you because...

If anything 'time' makes one 'comfortable' with what has become familar; and 'comfort' is a measure of one's sense of personal satisfaction; ergo, an ulterior motive; which goes to 'self-interest'. So these types of relationships are the ones that go the distance; but 'self-interest' is and continues to be the hinge on which relationships stand or fall.

And honestly, how many people do you think stop, and contemplate (and keep before them) deep philosophical platonian truths such as the fundamental interconnectedness of all living things in the universe when considering whether this person or that is worth embarking on a relationship with; or whether they will pursue an adulterous affair with someone they are intensely attracted to or not; or whether they will just one day up and leave, without so much as a goodbye note; because they 'need time to find themselves', or what-have-you?

How many people, do you think, think on this when deciding whether they will even treat another human being with dignity or basic common courtesy? History will concur when I say relatively 'very few'. Certainly an amount that, when compared to the whole throughout time, is negligible.

I mean if anyone is indoubt as to what humans are all about; when food and water is in short supply, and there are many mouths to feed, watch how fast any and all thoughts of human 'sameness' and unity go out the window; and watch that primordial instinct for 'self-preservation' take a m*urderous hold on everyone.

But perhaps, as you pointed out, we may have to agree to disagree.

Regards