Are you pro-life, pro-choice, or unsure? There are rules on these two specific forums, that if you are pro-choice, you are not allowed to post on the pro-life forum, and if you are pro-life, you are not allowed to post here. If you are unsure, you are welcome to both forum; but remember, any pro-life views on here like your post are likely to be met with anger that you would wish to take away the woman's control over her body.


Everyone else, please hold of posts of anger or abuse (calm posts are always acceptable) until she has a chance to respond.

I will leave this topic up until we know; if it turns into a debate i'm deleting it. This is not the palce to argue about abortion.

I believe that I have an insider's, or at least inspired, view-point on the abortion/ adoption issue as I am adopted and have had 24 years to marinade in it. Oddly enough I never really took much interest in the debate, often times just sitting back and acting the content spectator.
I don't think that the debate is whether or not adoption works, or even whether or not a child deserves the right to live. I don't believe that anyone pro-choice is void enough of morality to think life a privalige and not a right. I see the pro-choice issue becomming bogged down in a morality war that it can never win as the "choice" they speak of is based soley in civics, personal freedoms, and the "choices" which we are ensured by the constitution. In all fairness, the argument for a women's right to choose is quite sound in my opinion.
If the argument for life is that women should not be given a choice that so directly effects the life of another, then it is inherently flawed as everyone makes such choices countless times during a life-time. If a young woman is forced to keep a child she cannot support emotionally as she is not yet an adult, would we not then be pressed to take that child away from her? I shutter to think of all the civil liberties that a series of pro-life regulations would have to violate in order to cover all the bases.
I am not pro-choice and honestly am not exactly sure why. I know it has a lot to do with the fact that adoption worked for me. I feel as though I really hit the lottery with my family. I probably feel an appreciation for them farther than if I was not adopted, because I know I could have ended up in a much worse situation. I would not trade being adopted for the world, yet i'm not so sure my birth-mother would say the same. Therefore I cannot call myself pro-life either as from what little I know of her current emotional state, I see that she would have had a much easier time and honestly been better off had I been aborted.
I think that the more frequently, no matter how much it hurts to do, people from both sides of the issue place themselves in unfamiliar shoes the closer those two sides will come to each other. Given the opportunity to better themselves through education on either side of the fence, the truly wise will jump at the opportunity. Those who are unwilling to do so, regardless if they are pro-choice or pro-life, are the real problem at the root of this issue.

I can't speak for anyone else but I can tell you my reasons for choosing an abortion instead of adoption.

#1: in order to give your child away to strangers, you must first be willing and able to continue the pregnancy to term. Many women, including myself, are unwilling or unable to continute a pregnancy to term. My pregnancy was ectopic which put my life in jeopardy. My choices were die or have the pregnancy removed.

#2: the adoption system, in my limited experiences, seems like a warped ebay system where white, healthy pregnant women are given money, clothing, and gifts (as long as the baby will also be white and healthy - bonus points/items/cash for blonde hair or blue eyes) for their infants while the state grudgingly takes the infants who do not fit into that category. The waiting line for someone to adopt a healthy, white infant is over seven years long (on average) while other children languish in the foster and public adoption system. Couples are .N.O.T dying to adopt "any" baby, they are dying to adopt the "perfect" baby and if you're pretty sure you won't be having one of them, your child will have less of a chance of being adopted and properly cared for. I could not live with myself knowing that my own child was being neglected because it did not fit someone elses perception of "perfection." when couples "dying to adopt" start adopting the hundreds of thousands of children waiting for good homes, then i'll reconsider my position.

#3: I would worry, constantly, about the child that I gave away. Are they still alive? Are they being well cared for? Etc. And while an "open" adoption is supposed to fix that problem, many women who have given children away report that their so-called "open" adoption quickly closed when the other couple assumed possession of the child. Which also means that you never really know the people you're giving your own flesh and blood to.

#4: in order to give a child away (in most states) both parents must sign away their rights to the child. If your partner decides that he doesn't want you to give away the child (even if he, himself, cannot offer the care that the child needs) and refuses to sign his rights away, the adoption falls through and you are then stuck with the child that you couldn't take care of in the first place. Until the laws are changed to fully protect the birth mother in this situation, I cannot support the current adoption system.

#5: many adoption agencies and adoptive parents lie to the birth mother because they are afraid that she will change her mind at or shortly after the birth (which she has every right to do). They threaten to sue her (which they can't) or they arrange to take possession of the child before they are legally able to do so.

#6: many women who choose an abortion do so because it gives them closure to the crises situation of an unintended pregnancy. An adoption, however, does not bring closure, only a lifetime of doubt, wonder, and worry.

#7: I would not choose adoption because I could not. I could not give a child away to strangers or to other family members. I don't know the strangers and I know the family members too well. If I am pregnant and cannot afford to keep the pregnancy or the resulting child, then I would choose an abortion.

obviously not or far fewer women would be seeking abortions.

Of the millions of women who choose an abortion every year, 86% of them felt relief when it was over. For women, the stressful event is not the abortion but the fact that they were pregnant when they didn't want to be. The unintended pregnancy is what caused them stress and the abortion was their way of coping with the stressful event in a way that they could live with.

Women who choose adoption, however, not only live with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy but then also have to live with the stress and emotional trauma of giving a child away and possibly never seeing them again. On top of that, because they did go through pregnancy and child birth, up to 40% of them will also deal with post partum depression.

Of the few women I know who have chosen adoption, all of them regret it. Of the many women I know who have chosen abortion, none of them regret the abortion - they regret that they ever got pregnant in the first place.

there are literally hudreds of thousands of children needing good homes .R.I.G.H.T .N.O.W. If these 187 "loving couples wish to adopt", they can start their family immediately by adopting one of the hundreds of thousands of children who are already up for adoption.

Do you know why these children aren't being adopted? It's because they've committed a terrible "sin." their "sin" is that they are either not white or healthy .O.R are no longer a baby. If a person is dying to adopt, there are .A.L.R.E.A.D.Y plenty of children waiting.

because they don't want to be pregnant.
first, give your own child away for adoption and then come back and tell us if the experience was positive or not.
the "new family" doesn't have to wait for my pregnancy to end or your pregnancy to end to "have a child they might not otherwise been able to have." they can adopt one of the hundreds of thousands of children currently waiting for adoption.

experience more of life, specifically more of this issue, and then share with us your "thoughts."

do you honestly think we haven't heard this before? We've heard the message, thanks. For some of us, though, your naive, "and-they-all-lived-happily-ever-after" rarely happens.

Jenn smithson-
thank you for your reply, you do make some thought provoking points, however I question a few of your remarks. I understand in your situation abortion was necessary because of the etopic pregnancy, however I would say 98% of women seeking abortions are not in any unusual danger. While I undersand the adoption process is not perfect by any means as you state, if nothing else why couldn't the as you put it "as long as the baby will also be white and healthy" ones be adopted since they are more wanted in your opinion? I would think if the infant was white and healthy it would be adopted quickly based on what you have said. I am guessing that would possibly be about 1/3 of the babies terminated.

Jenn smithson said: "i would worry, constantly, about the child that I gave away. Are they still alive? Are they being well cared for?"

wouldn't you worry about the child you aborted, wondering what they would look like, what kind of things they may have done with their life? I do mean in a normal abortion situation, of course in yours it could be different since you had to choose abortion, you may not have as many second thoughts as a regular person, since you really didn't have a "choice".

Jenn smithson said: "many women who choose an abortion do so because it gives them closure to the crises situation of an unintended pregnancy. An adoption, however, does not bring closure, only a lifetime of doubt, wonder, and worry."

from all I have heard from friends who have had abortions, it also brings a lifetime of doubt, wonder, and worry of "what ifs" & regret. Not one person I have spoke to about abortion said the didn't regret it afterward. Maybe it was the best choice at the time they thought, but down the road looking back they say they wish they would have kept the baby and did have second thoughts regularly.

Jenn smithson said: I would not choose adoption because I could not. I could not give a child away to strangers or to other family members. I don't know the strangers and I know the family members too well. If I am pregnant and cannot afford to keep the pregnancy or the resulting child, then I would choose an abortion.

If you could not give the child away, how could you terminate it? The viewpoint you share sounds very selfish, like if I can't have it all perfect & my way, then I don't want it. It's kind of like the same viewpoint the adoptive parents you speak of have, "if it isn't white and perfect, then I don't want it attitude". What makes you any different than them, you have your preferences too.


Jenn smithson wrote: for some of us, though, your naive, "and-they-all-lived-happily-ever-after" rarely happens

maybe if more people had a positive attitude about life, it could happen more often!

first, this is not simply my opinion, I wish it were that simple. The actual numbers and statistics of adoptions in the us paint a very real picture of who is adopting and the children that they are choosing to adopt. You can adopt a child as young as 3 within a very few months but people are instead waiting on lists for up to seven years for a healthy, white infant.

Secondly, for there to be any adoption at all, the pregnant woman must choose to sacrifice her body and remain pregnant. Not every woman is willing or able to do this. So, even white women having presumably white children must go through pregnancy for the adoption to even be considered. If the pregnant woman chooses adoption by and for her unique situation, then I support her decision, wish her all the best, and hope that she gets a very good therapy referral. I would only hope that she is given honest information about adoption before any other choice evaporates with time.

If prospective adoptive parents wish to offer more money so that the pregnant woman will not obtain an abortion, that is their perogative. However, no amount of money can overide any woman's right to end her pregnancy.
not really. If I had had a "normal" pregnancy, I still would have chosen an abortion. At that time and stage of my life, I could barely support myself let alone a child. Wondering if I would have had enough to feed my child is better than regretting ever having children in the first place. Also, bringing a child into poverty is not a good indication that they will have a decent life and it was not a life I wanted to give a child of mine. For me, quality of life is far more important than the number of lives I bring to the planet.

If you actually speak to women who choose to obtain an abortion, as I said before, most are relieved. The wondering is not present because an abortion brings with it closure.

I am sorry for your friends but they are in the minority in this regard. The vast majority of women who choose an abortion for themselves and by themselves do not regret their decision. For them, it is a successful coping of a stressful unplanned pregnancy. The american psychological association has produced some very good studies on this issue. Their website is www.Apa.Org.

Perhaps your friends are also giving you the version you wish to hear so that they will not be judged and condemned by a friend. If they know where you stand on the issue, they are far more likely to give you a version of events that they know you will be sympathetic to than a verson of events you will be hostile to.
again, I am sorry that your friends claim to feel this way but they do not represent the majority. Further, simply because you claim that your friends regretted their choice does not indicate that all women will or should. I do not regret my choice, I never have.

first, because I do not believe there is a life until birth. As I stated earlier, I greatly believe in the quality of one's life. The quality of one's life does not begin until one can experience things by themselves. That cannot happen without a birth. Therefore I have no qualms about an abortion ending the possibility of a life being born.

Further, no woman is a walking incubator for infertile couples unless she chooses to be. I would not choose that.

And last, as stated above, I would not bring a child into poverty. My financial position has changed a little since the last time I was pregnant but not enough to support a child and give it all that it deserves. For me, it is far more responsible to choose an abortion instead of bringing a child into the world that society will have to help me care for and raise. And, since society does so very little to help women and their children in poverty, I would not willingly choose to give birth in that situation just to watch my children starve or have a horrible life. Not when I can prevent it.
selfish, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's selfish when people have children just to see what they would look like, to carry on the family name, to have a son/daughter because they already have a daughter/son, to try and patch up or fix a broken relationship, to have another person who will supposedly "love me no matter what", to placate one's parents who want to see a grandchild before they die, to prove your love, and to harvest their cord blood to save their sibling or other family member.

There isn't a child bearing decision that's made without being selfish. How about the billions of dollars spent on fertility treatments just to have your own genetic offspring? What isn't selfish about that?

In this case, since pregnancy and child bearing are personal decisions which affect the entire course and scope of one's life, I believe it is the perfect time to be selfish. In my personal situation, I believe that it is far more responsible of me to not have children when I cannot afford to take proper care of them. And, if I am never in the position to take proper care of a child, then I won't have a child. The decision to have children, just like the decision not to have children, is entirely selfish on many levels and always has been.

mine was more "if I can't even feed myself, then I can't/shouldn't have a baby." and, my children, if I ever have any, won't be white to begin with so that plays no part in the decision what so ever. I'm sad to say that it does impact the decision of couples looking to adopt.
yes, and since it's my body, my preferences are the only ones that matter. And since I greatly perfer not to have children until i, alone and without the governments help, can take care of them, I won't have any.

I always find the argument, "but there are x number of couples dying to adopt" to be not only a flat out .L.I.E but also disgusting in that children who are waiting to be adopted are ignored because of it. "well, if there are x number of couples waiting to adopt, then why is that child still in the foster/adoption system? They must have something wrong with them that makes them undesirable to prospective parents." - is how the logic goes.

And, I never said that either decision - to adopt or abort - wasn't selfish. I believe both are to differing extents. However, since child bearing is a personal and private decision by both people who adopt and women who abort, I have no business telling either party what they should be doing. I am only here to offer support to those women who, like me, see abortion as the responsible decision for themselves and find people like you preaching scenarios and "alternatives" that don't work with their personal beliefs or lives. Also, I think it would be incredibly selfish to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will so that adoptive parents can have the infant that they want.


a positive attitude about life does not keep prospective adoptive parents from screwing a pregnant woman nor does it keep the birth mother from suffering. that was the situation I was referencing. You seem to have a very idealized, not realistic, vision of adoption. You seem to believe that women who have just given birth happily hand over their babies to complete strangers with a smile on their face, the adoptive parents smile at her and probably thank her profusely, and then they all leave the hospital happy and well adjusted. It may work for tv and the movies but that doesn't mean it's how the situation works out in real life for the majority of women who choose it.

My concern is always for the pregnant woman because I have been in her shoes. I sympathize with the couple who wants to adopt but in all honesty there are hundreds of thousands of children waiting to be adopted(millions if you consider that international adoptions have become quite popular). If the woman chooses to keep her pregnancy but cannot keep her child, I wish her all the best in the adoption process and a referral to a good therapist and possibly a support group. If the woman decides not to remain pregnant, then I support her decision.

As I said before, none of the women I know who have chosen adoption support the decision now. All of them regret it. And while I want to believe that adoption can have a positive outcome for the birth mother, i've never seen that to be the case. I care about the pregnant woman because all too often she is ignored or her concerns about her life are pushed aside to focus on the adoptive parents.

It's very easy to say you want to put a child up for adoption, but the child's future has a pretty good chance of being unhappy if you choose this existence for it. There are tons of kids waiting to be adopted currently in this country alone, and there is so much red tape involved in the adoption process. People who want to adopt are often refused for silly reasons, and kids end up stuck in foster care for their entire childhoods. It's not fair to the child to let it grow up without a loving family.

I would choose abortion without hesitation. My main reason is I despise children. I refuse to allow a child to be brought into a life where it would most likely be neglected. I hate children enough to know that one left in my care would be miserable, at the very least. I don't think it's fair to any children to be born just to be stuck in a foster home. What kind of a life is that? Why do pro-lifers value life over the quality of life? Just because something is alive doesn't mean it wants to or should be alive. I know I would not want to go about my life knowing I had a child somewhere out in the world...It just creeps me out.

I think a child should only be born if it has a chance of having a good life, as in one with parents that love it and want it and are willing to make the lifelong commitment. Not like stupid teenage girls who think babies are accessories and just dump the baby in grandma's lap while mommy goes out and lives her life as normal. But I digress.

Sometimes I wish adoption was outlawed, so women would either have to abort or keep the child. It might prompt more women to save children and themselves suffering by aborting, but then it would also make some women think they need to keep the child so they don't kill "one of god's miracles". It might also lead to more women simply abandoning their children. Adoption is pretty much the easy way out for some women. I think they want to have the satisfaction of saying they endured pregnancy and childbirth without the responsibility that comes with parenthood.

I agree with jenn.

The major problem I see is the fact tha adoption is a parenting issue, you still have to go through the pregnancy and delivery and then you still have a genetic child out there. For me having 9months of pregnancy just wasn't an option for me - I thought about adoption but it wasn't right for my situation, as i'm sure it's not for many other women.
Also, just because other people cannot have children I do not see it as my responsibility to provide them with that. There are plenty of older children desparately in need of adoption too but most people want a baby so that's something for those couples wanting to adopt to look at too.

it's not as simple as women being "in danger", the fact is that an unwanted pregnancy can cause huge amounts of emotional distress. Just because it's not physical danger doesn't mean that women shouldn't abort. Any reason is valid, it's the individuals choice whether to abort/adopt/parent.

well, as a "regular" person I don't think about what it would have been like, it was a foetus that my life couldn't accomodate. Initially I wondered but I was just relieved that I was no longer pregnant.


i have the opposite experience. Out of the many women i've spoken to the minority are those who regret - yes there's some sadness but this doesn't automatically mean regret.

this is a quite common misconception. True, there are income level requirements and arrest record rules that cannot be circumvented but states have made it easier and easier to adopt and foster children because they had too many children to take care of. My neighbor is a case worker for the state and even at my current income level (very low) and my job status (part time worker/full time student), I could adopt a child within three months and I could foster a child in my home within six weeks. She's tried to get me to foster because she's so overworked and overburdened by her case load.

In fact, it is easier to adopt/foster through the state than it is to adopt through an independent agency. The only difference is that if you adopt/foster through the state, you are likely to only have your choice of older children (3 and up) as opposed to an infant. Many people claim that it is very difficult to adopt not because the process is hard but because they aren't able to get the child (infant, white, healthy) that they want. If you truly just want "a child to love" or to "give a child a good home", then you will have no problem finding many children who fit that criteria - they just won't be babies. Still, you won't have to wait since there are literally hundreds of thousands of children waiting to be adopted.

not all teenage mother's feel or think this way but I know what you're getting at. I had a friend in highschool who became pregnant intentionally because her ex-boyfriend had broken up with her and she just "wanted someone who would always love her no matter what." unfortunately, children take a lot more love than they give and there is no gaurantee that they will love you when they grow old enough to understand the concept.

women and men do this now. They've made it insanely easy to abandon a child legally by dropping it off at an approved fire station, hospital, church, and some community centers. No questions asked, you just leave your kid there and the state takes over its care.
i don't think any of these child bearing decisions are an "easy way out." it's difficult for all of us to look at our lives completely and totally objectively which is what it takes to make any child bearing decision. Where am I going? Where am I at in my life? Am I happy with where i'm at? How will x decision change my life? Can I afford that change on all levels? How will y decision change my life? Can I afford that change on all levels? How will z decision change my life? Can I afford that change on all levels?

For me, it was very difficult to admit that I wasn't the complete success that I thought i'd be at that age (granted, I was and am still quite young). It was very difficult to admit to myself that I was not prepared and I felt like my body had betrayed me. Each decision, to remain pregnant or not, is difficult for every woman going through it. Whatever her personal reasons were for choosing whatever she chose, I support her because I know how hard it is to be in that place.

You are probably one of the lucky one's that found a good home along with alot of others. Jenn is definitely not selfish, she is a very caring and understanding person. I am a social service worker and a nurse and probably much older than you are I have seen several foster homes being shut down and I too realize that their are good one's out there,their are one's being shut down and I am sure you have heard for abuse and neglect and molestation. You know I love to hear of happy endings just as well as the next person but it doesn't always happen. Their are too many times when a couple goes to adopt a child and the biological mother steps in, just put yourself in that place with the adoptive parents where they have had the child say for 4 months and they are getting ready to go sign the real documents and in comes the biological mother starting a bunch of garbage with court documents, it would be horrible like jenn said all of the red tape and all and then you sometimes have to deal with the father that has just been told, it is not always easy and I agree with what .Jenn is telling you! Along with .Cambion! Sometimes these foster homes are all about money! Even though some are good! But it is really scarry!