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Abortion

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maggiek

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Abortion Posted: 05-15-06 11:59am


Pain pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, medical physiology, st. Louis: c.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." s. Reinis & j. Goldman, the development of the brain c. Thomas pub., 1980 the fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. R. White, dir. Neurosurgery & brain research, case western univ. Also, "far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain"...That babies under 30 weeks have a "newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age." p. Ranalli, neuro. Dept., univ. Of toronto

maggiek

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Posted: 05-15-06 12:36pm


Hello again, i wondered where you had gone. The whole point of your exsistance is to try and insinuate people are a .E.D.I.T.E.D. Calling me .E.D.I.T.E.D. Such an insult. Bye

diamond splinter

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Posted: 05-15-06 12:54pm

maggiek wrote:

hello again,
i wondered where you had gone.

The whole point of your exsistance is to try and insinuate people are a lesbian just like yourself. Calling me a **** licker is such an insult.

Bye

maggie seriously just ignore lolbhahaha she is the same with everybody whether you are pro life or pro choice

maggiek

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Posted: 05-15-06 13:44pm


.E.D.I.T.E.D. Not an abortion topic

maggiek

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Posted: 05-15-06 18:11pm


.E.D.I.T.E.D. Not an abortion topic

Tylanas

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Posted: 05-15-06 22:28pm


Hm, this is an interesting post. How old/new is this research? I am basing my thoughts of fetal pain starting around week 25 on recent research done that indicated that the central hub of the brain, the thalamus, isn't connected untill week 25. How can they tell tht the fetus is feeling "pain" on its lip, and not simply displaying a natural (non-pain related) reaction to being touched? I don't think mothers let doctors go around poking their fetuses in the mouth...

Cambion

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Posted: 05-16-06 12:48pm


I have read a study that was done a few months back that claimed fetuses don't feel pain until the third trimester because it takes their brains that long to develop enough to register pain and feel it. I know people low about how fetuses feel pain during abortions, which is why they start lurching around when they get poked by the vacuum. But that's just a normal reaction - fetuses aren't meant to be touched, and the touch of anything is abnormal and the twitching and moving is an involuntary response. If you were to sit and poke a fetus in the head with your finger, it would move around. I find it extremely hard to fathom that an incubating human creature that is any less than five months old could feel pain. Some fully-grown adults don't even have fully functioning brains - what makes some people think a vegetating fetus does?

Fasttricky

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Posted: 05-16-06 17:11pm


People who support abortion would want to think that a fetus doesn't feel pain, to feel less guilty(or not) about it. Maybe there is no proven evidence yet that they can feel pain, but what if they could, wouldn't it be wrong? Abortion is a topic that I don't think everyone in the world can agree on. I did read the other day about women before the 1970's having back street abortions and it going wrong. I also read the story about gianni the woman who survived a chemical abortion, although she now has celebal pausey. I really cannot make my mind up, because if you make abortion illegal then worse things will happen, but it seems that too many women are having abortions these days. Can anyone tell me their opinions pro choice pro life, just so that I can be clear in my head, because I am not sure what I think anymore.

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Fasttricky Posted: 05-16-06 19:20pm


Can I ask you do you rememmber being born or being in your mother as a fetus feleling pain, obviously probably not, then how do you expect any other fetus too, it is just kind of a common sense type situation. Being pro--choice to me means that you are giving a female a choice to carry a fetus until birth and raising the child or adopting it out(never been one of my favorites as too many adoptions fail, just my opinion) or having the choice to abort the fetus especially such as in rape, incest or the baby not being wanted unable to be taken care of properly unloved abused and neglected and beings I am not walking in that pregnant females shoes I have no right to judge her reasons as she is probably doing what is right at that time and although their are b/c devices out their they are not 100% protective which also gives a female the right to chose.

Moo

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Posted: 05-17-06 06:29am

fasttricky wrote:

maybe there is no proven evidence yet that they can feel pain, but what if they could, wouldn't it be wrong?

no, I would still support a womans right to choose abortion if it were proved the fetus could feel pain.
However, the anaesthetic would also pass to the fetus during proceduresdone under general so i'm sure that more women wuld choose that route if they wanted to terminate their pregnancy and it ere proved, beyond any doubt, that the fetus coul feel pain.
(this all hypothetical of course as most agree that pain cannot be felt until around 25weeks)

fasttricky wrote:

I really cannot make my mind up, because if you make abortion illegal then worse things will happen, but it seems that too many women are having abortions these days.

i agree, there is a huge number of abortions taking place but I believe the key to reducing the number is by better sex education and more education on contraception which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

Draken

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Posted: 05-17-06 08:29am

moo wrote:

fasttricky wrote:

maybe there is no proven evidence yet that they can feel pain, but what if they could, wouldn't it be wrong?

no, I would still support a womans right to choose abortion if it were proved the fetus could feel pain.
However, the anaesthetic would also pass to the fetus during proceduresdone under general so i'm sure that more women wuld choose that route if they wanted to terminate their pregnancy and it ere proved, beyond any doubt, that the fetus coul feel pain.

(this all hypothetical of course as most agree that pain cannot be felt until around 25weeks)

fasttricky wrote:

I really cannot make my mind up, because if you make abortion illegal then worse things will happen, but it seems that too many women are having abortions these days.

yeah that, and preventing older guys from taking advantage of the mentally slow. My school the only pregnancies were from the special ed children because the older guys that were smarter than them coaxed them into having sex. More eduaction is a must. But for the fetus and the pain, I don't know. When is the fetus capable of not being aborted anymore? And when do most abortions occur? And if it's less than eleven weeks then does it really matter? I say no, a quick death is better than I life of misery even if it is painful.

diamond splinter

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Posted: 05-17-06 08:32am


How very humane of you what it doesn't matter if they feel pain or not thats just like a pro lifer saying that it doesn't matter if women die from back street abortions or home abortions I can imagine the kick off from pro choicers then bunch of hypocrits the lot of you.

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Posted: 05-17-06 08:49am

diamond splinter wrote:

how very humane of you what it doesn't matter if they feel pain or not thats just like a pro lifer saying that it doesn't matter if women die from back street abortions or home abortions I can imagine the kick off from pro choicers then bunch of hypocrits the lot of you.

here is the base issue come to light: we care more about the mother, and preserving her life/way of life/etc at any cost; you care more about the fetus, except in very rare cases.

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Posted: 05-17-06 09:20am

Quote:

maybe there is no proven evidence yet that they can feel pain, but what if they could, wouldn't it be wrong?

i would still advocate abortion. If the pregnancy is unwanted for any reason, what is 15-20 minutes of pain compared to a lifetime of suffering, ranging from being unwanted and possibly unloved to the typical sufferings of childhood like bullying?

And I disagree that women are told fetuses don't feel pain just to make them feel better. On the contrary, women are usually told it's exceptionally painful for the fetus to make them feel guilty more often than not. A lot of pro-lifers like to breathe such a load of crap to women seeking abortion to try and talk them out of the procedure because they obviously won't go on for another day without sticking their noses into other people's business and ruining someone else's life.

But, unfortunately, we live in such a baby-centric world that the life of a vegetating parasitic half-dead fetus that can't see, breathe, think, or function in any other way beyond growth is valued way above the life of the mother. It's as though adults have no value, but a bloody piece of flesh that resembles a human is the world's most precious gem. I hate this country.

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agree, there is a huge number of abortions taking place but I believe the key to reducing the number is by better sex education and more education on contraception which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

i totally agree, and going along with contraception, I wish doctors would stop being jerks and sterilize young women who ask to have it done. I've heard of way too many women who are forced to wait for years and years because their fool doctors won't sterilize them. Same goes for young men who seek vasectomies. I don't think guys have as much difficulty getting sterilized, but some doctors require the guy to have spawned prior to the surgery. Did I mention I hate this country?

diamond splinter

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Posted: 05-17-06 09:26am

eiri wrote:

diamond splinter wrote:

here is the base issue come to light: we care more about the mother, and preserving her life/way of life/etc at any cost; you care more about the fetus, except in very rare cases.

i care about the fact that one can take the life of another under any circumstance no one has that right

Fasttricky

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Exercising the Right to Our Bodies Posted: 05-17-06 12:26pm


If we really wanted to exercise our rights to our bodies, shouldn't it be before we even contemplate sex with anyone? There is so much disease out there hiv being one of them that comes to mind. My friend works as a nurse at a local std clinic, and she tells me the amount of teenagers with clamidiya etc, teenagers who really shouldn't have to deal with such things. Pregnancy is another part of having unprotected sex, it would be easier all round to protect our bodies and have protection with ourselves at all time, lets make the decision to say no to unwanted pregnancy no to most std's and be bold and carry a condom with us at all times. It is really that simple, all the a lot of abortions could be prevented, as unwanted pregnancies would be minimized, and std's are so nasty, so protect ourselves.

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Posted: 05-17-06 12:43pm

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if we really wanted to exercise our rights to our bodies, shouldn't it be before we even contemplate sex with anyone?

yes but that's my (and your) personal opinion. If people want to sleep around/sleep with people after not knowing them long then they should just remember to use protection.

Quote:

pregnancy is another part of having unprotected sex, it would be easier all round to protect our bodies and have protection with ourselves at all time

it can also be part of having protected sex. Both of my pregancies have occurred whilst using contraception. Many of my friends have also become pregnant whilst using birth conrtol so, yes it's easier to use contraception than have an abortion but unfortunately it isn't a guarentee against it.

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ets make the decision to say no to unwanted pregnancy no to most std's and be bold and carry a condom with us at all times.

yes, single women/men should carry condoms around. I personally don't as i'm in a long term relationship and using other methods :d

Tylanas

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Posted: 05-17-06 12:49pm

diamond splinter wrote:

eiri wrote:

diamond splinter wrote:

here is the base issue come to light: we care more about the mother, and preserving her life/way of life/etc at any cost; you care more about the fetus, except in very rare cases.

i care about the fact that one can take the life of another under any circumstance no one has that right

i believe that no person has the right to kill another person for random reasons; but I do not believe the fetus is a person. The core concepts of this argument are (including valuing the adult woman) personhood, religion, death, and bodily autonomy.

Draken

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Re: Exercising the Right to Our Bodies
Posted: 05-17-06 12:56pm

fasttricky wrote:

if we really wanted to exercise our rights to our bodies, shouldn't it be before we even contemplate sex with anyone? There is so much disease out there hiv being one of them that comes to mind.
My friend works as a nurse at a local std clinic, and she tells me the amount of teenagers with clamidiya etc, teenagers who really shouldn't have to deal with such things. Pregnancy is another part of having unprotected sex, it would be easier all round to protect our bodies and have protection with ourselves at all time, lets make the decision to say no to unwanted pregnancy no to most std's and be bold and carry a condom with us at all times. It is really that simple, all the a lot of abortions could be prevented, as unwanted pregnancies would be minimized, and std's are so nasty, so protect ourselves.

i totally agree with you, unfortunately, I said almost the same thing when I first got here too. No sex isn't an option because its too hard and safe sex isn't as good. Your I dea has just one little flaw, people don't want to do what you ask of them even though its in thier best interest.

Fasttricky

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Unprotected Sex Posted: 05-17-06 14:18pm


Although everyone can be entitled to their own opinions, you must all agree.. Surely that we do have to think about our bodies and what we put into them. E.G. Do we really know how may sexual partners our boyfriends have had, if they are in perfect sexual health. I think it would be a good idea to have std tests done with every new boyfriend/girlfriend so that we can be assured of our own sexual health as well as our partners. Some stds develop at a later date, we may not even know we have anything. But this would be in a perfect world and I don't think this will catch on! As well as std's if women do have abortions it can't be incredibly healthly to have their uterus go through such a procedure.