On: Love, Freedom, Abortion And God

I find it really interesting that religious people have this overwhelming tendency to try and force their beliefs on everyone else. Like somehow their beliefs are better then everyone elses. Christians believe they're right, catholics believe they're right, jehovah's witness' believe they're right, mormons etc. So who is right? Why should religous belief make law. I believe strongly in seperation of church and state. You follow your beliefs all you want. Live by the laws of your religion to the letter if you want. Just don't force me to, you don't have the right. If I don't believe in your god then I shouldn't have to follow your religions laws. Anymore then you would want to follow the teachings of the buddha, wicca or voodo. Choice is a right born of intelligence. We have the power to make our own choices no one regardless of their religious choice or lack thereof should have that choice taken away.

Well put 199 and9/9% I agree! I have always said this is not a religious forum, take it elsewhere, it does not belong here, start one somewhere else, it really gets old so,as .Eeri says, we just ignore it, hopefully it will go away! Religion and politics all it does is starts fights and hassels.
The best to you!

Seperation of church and state"

this is a human rights issue that was developed by the catholic church and promoted by them and many political organizations, the issue of seperation church as state is the basis of "religious freedom" for human beings allowing the church to be free from the state.

" what later came to be thought of as human rights. Among them were the right of the church to be free from governmental interference"

you say you wish to be free from religious laws, of course no one is forcing you to go to mass or forcing you to abstain from meat on good friday, these have to do with worship, that is mans relationship to god, however I am sure you mean in a much larger sense, the sense you want to be free from "human rights" human rights is a religious belief deveolped by the catholic church and promoted by both political and religious organizations, it is a religious belief because it is concerned with mans relationship to man based on judo christian beliefs... For example "the right to life" is based on "thou shalt not kill" the right to liberty and freedom based on "we are all equal in christ" to be free from religious laws in that sense would result in a unjust society, the strongest taking power and enslaving the weak, it is christianity that has built up freedom and human rights it has worked hard to liberate the despot and the slave from oppresion and you want to throw it all away...Based on what...Your own desire to kill human beings

Maybe in your way of thinking certain things were based on christianity. But let us not forget during the holy crusades woman and children were raped and murdered in the name of god. I meant what I said I don't believe religious beliefs having any business in law. I can believe that it's wrong to steal, rape, or commit other acts that are heinous and believe they're wrong just because they're wrong. Not because of any religious stand point. You proved my point. Religious people including christians believe that everything traces back to god or their religion. I don't. Buddhism has been around longer then christianity. As has the worship of mother earth. The worship of multiple gods was around long before singular god worship. Yet not many laws are based on some of those relgions. I believe in not harming other people. You believe that an unborn child is a person. Good for you I respect your beliefs but don't force them on others. Many other people don't believe that an unborn fetus is a person. Who are you to tell them they're wrong? Yes we have to have laws and yes some of those laws coincide with religious beliefs but that doesn't mean that every law should have it's basis in religion. Would you like it if suddenly it became law that all male children had to by law be circumcised, or your female child had to be circumcised. There are countries where it's "almost" law for a girl to have her clitorous removed. What i'm trying to point out is that we have to have choice. And until (hopefully never) we become a nation that's forced to live under the laws of one religion then no one has the right to tell me what I can do with my body.


Oh and izzy please don't say i've said things I haven't. I have never said I have the desire to kill other human beings. I have never said I think other people should kill human beings. I've talked about choice, a womans rights over her own body and the right to not have my medical treatment decided by religion. There's a difference and you know it.

Quote: "maybe in your way of thinking certain things were based on christianity. But let us not forget during the holy crusades woman and children were raped and not a nice acted in the name of god. I meant what I said I don't believe religious beliefs having any business in law. I can believe that it's wrong to steal, rape, or commit other acts that are heinous and believe they're wrong just because they're wrong. Not because of any religious stand point. You proved my point. Religious people including christians believe that everything traces back to god or their religion. I don't. Buddhism has been around longer then christianity. As has the worship of mother earth. The worship of multiple gods was around long before singular god worship. Yet not many laws are based on some of those relgions. I believe in not harming other people. You believe it is wrong to have sex with children. Good for you I respect your beliefs but don't force them on others.

Many other people don't believe that it is wrong to have sex with children. Who are you to tell them they're wrong?

Yes we have to have laws and yes some of those laws coincide with religious beliefs but that doesn't mean that every law should have it's basis in religion. Would you like it if suddenly it became law that all male children had to by law be circumcised, or your female child had to be circumcised. There are countries where it's "almost" law for a girl to have her clitorous removed. What i'm trying to point out is that we have to have choice. And until (hopefully never) we become a nation that's forced to live under the laws of one religion then no one has the right to tell me what I can do with my children."

the irony is you will complain I changed your post saying "obviously pedophilia is wrong"...But based on your argument should you be able to force people who believe having sex with children is ok to stop having sex with children?

I dont think based on your arguement you could tell anyone they were wrong, how would you like it if a man raped you and he was let off because...He didnt believe it was wrong?

Or the bank decided to keep your money and you could do nothing about it because the bank didnt see anything wrong in doing it.

The trouble is with people like you, is you want to be free to act unjustly towards others, but you want others to be enslaved to laws that protect you. So its fine for you to kill a unborn child, but its wrong for gary glitter to rape young children, you kil children on based on your beliefs, gary glitter rapes children based on his beliefs, you tell others they have no right to say your beliefs are wrong, yet you instantly call pedophillia wrong.

You want abortion legal based on your beliefs and gary glitter wants pedophilia legal based on his, you kill children and say you have a right to do it, he rapes children and says he has a right to do it...Who is worse the person who kills a child or the person who rapes a child?

If a man is not religious is it ok for him to rape a child?

Without religion who are the state or you to impose your beliefs on a pedophile?

Ps who raped and murdered children durring the crusades, could you provide one bit of evidence to substantuate your claim.

You ask me if I can prove what happened during the crusades. You won't believe those things happened, but you believe in a god you've never seen. And I never said I didn't want laws or that I thought everyone should do what ever they like. I said laws shouldn't be based on religion. I think most people believe pedophilia should be illegal, along with homicide and a whole list of things. That's why we have laws made based on majority. Just to point on you never answered my question whose religion should we base laws on, yours, mine, that guy over there's? And if yours why? Why is yours better then mine. I also never said someone should be able to do something just because they think it's okay. I don't hurt other people, I don't want to hurt other people. And to assume that I do or tat I want pedophilia to be okay is insulting. I was specific I said law shouldn't be based on any one religon. That isn't to say we should have no law at all. That's wy we vote and the majority vote usually wins.

I say we agree to disagree, because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye.

Peace kat

Lolbahlolbah I agree with you that is how most religious believers think. And to be fair that is what the bible teaches them god made man etc. Most organized religion believes everything traces back to god and that witout him the world would stop. I don't happen to believe that. I respect their right to believe but I also think it's bull. I don't think everything traces back to a god that has never been proven to exsist. Do I believe there was a guy named jesus who did good works, sure, do I think that means I have to believe everything else associated with that no way. If you believe that having an abortion is the taking of a life, then don't have one. If you think it's wrong voice your opinion, but don't tell me that I have to do as you and your god say. It's like the right to die issue. We'd rather let people die in agony, writhing in pain then allow them and there doctors to end their lives with dignity. All because some people consider it suicide. It's my life and my death how I choose to end my life is my desicion no one elses. I digress though. How is everyone today?

"so "human rights" didn't exist until your fairy tale god?"

oh we are being pedantic are we... Ok. Then yes human rights didnt exist until then.... But of course god esites before the entire universe so, human rights existed before that, only people didnt recognise them.


"you ask me if I can prove what happened during the crusades. You won't believe those things happened, but you believe in a god you've never seen. "

i never said that, I only asked for proof.


"i said laws shouldn't be based on religion."

what should they be based on?


" I think most people believe pedophilia should be illegal, along"

does the fact majority think so make it wrong?


"that's why we have laws made based on majority."

the majority of people think abortion should be restricted to rape, incest and disablity... Do you agree then?


"just to point on you never answered my question whose religion should we base laws on"

depends what the majority think!


Since 76% of americans are christian, you have your answer!


"is yours better then mine. "

i dunno whats your religion?


"i also never said someone should be able to do something just because they think it's okay."

thats exactly what you said in a round about way.


"i don't hurt other people, I don't want to hurt other people. "

well thats what we are debating...Is it not?


"to assume that I do or tat I want pedophilia to be okay is insulting."

well whats the differnce if you can kill children, why cant tom richard or harry molest childern?


"i was specific I said law shouldn't be based on any one religon."

what should it be based on?



"that's wy we vote and the majority vote usually wins. "

so if "the pedophile party" stood for election and won, you would be suportive of majority vote?


"i say we agree to disagree, because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye"

the words of a looser not willing to conceed!


Peace.... I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives.









I

Well, pedophelia is "obviously" wrong to me (although I can see circumstances when it would not be "bad", but my age limit is 12 on that one. Romeo and juliet anyone?). But that's because I was raised american, and in the american culture, pedophelia is bad.

I maintain that morality is subjective; and so people must decide these things for themselves; and that on a whole humans decided that they needed a government of some kind in order to maintain order; and thus it wsa developed; and thus people are willing and want to use it to have their culture's general ethical ideas made into laws.

That is why they say while tending bar that always get the subject changed if someone gets started on religion and politics as they both start fights all of the time. Which religion would you want this based on, izzy, mormon, protestant, trinity, jehovah, come on. No, I know we need laws but we need new leadership '.A .Woman.' still with pms not all about money, about reality someone that will straighten the.U.S.A up, a strong one that will quit sending all of our work overseas, someone that will put a bite in this welfare, free living, transient garbage, the right to work, the right to life, the right to choice, the right to speech, the right to help others and the right to help ourselves. Not all of these people that go around suing just to make companies go down, bring back the working people, no work, no pay, unless you are unable too. The same health insurance for all. The right to say bless.America, .God bless.America or or whomever you believe in. Life can be fun!

I think cowboy etc have convienient tunnel-vision on this one. The legal age of consent for sex is an arbitrary number for legal purposes. It has changed over time and is different according to country or state. But whatever lets you take the moral high-ground.

Dead right, eiri.

Wow hold on a minute I just read though some of your previouse posts and you are saying on one hand that children of 13 are not mature enough to be having sex and getting pregnant yet you are clearly advocating that 12 year olds are/were mature enough paedophilia is wrong now and always has been some coumtry's still have laws permiting the minors father to take her virginity that does not make them right.

A nonce by the way is a sex offender.