Bush passed a law, but it was suspended. That was a little over a month ago. Has it been taken off of suspension? I hope so, but last I knew it was still legal. To the person who posted this, make your friend at least look at a video of them performing a partial birth abortion. It will change her mind. I mean, babies have been born at four months a lived, I was born at eight months. Think about that!!

Bush had other reasons for passing the partial birth abortion law. It had more to do with a life support case in florida than it did with anti-abortion issues. I have a link somewhere to that issue if anyone is interested. Unfortunatly it effects many women's rights issues.

Pba is not in effect as yet. Not many people dont know you can get an abortion in the .U.S at anytime for any reason

Description of the d&x procedure:
these are generally called:

"d&x" procedures, an abbreviation of "dilate and extract," or
"intact d&e," or
"intrauterine cranial decompression" procedures.

They are not abortions as defined within medical science. The term "abortion" means the termination of pregnancy before the fetus is viable. However, it does fall within the definition of "abortion" which is used by most of the public.

The term "partial birth abortion" was recently created by pro-life groups when the procedure became actively discussed at a political and religious level. We will generally use the medical terms in this section.

The procedure is usually performed during the fifth month of gestation or later. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the fetus is partially removed from the womb, feet first. The surgeon inserts a sharp object into the back of the fetus' head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are extracted. The head of the fetus contracts at this point and allows the fetus to be more easily removed from the womb.

The exact number of d&xs performed is impossible to estimate with accuracy. Many states do not have strict reporting regulations.

One often quoted figure was that over 1000 d&xs had been performed annually in new jersey. From this number, many inflated national totals were estimated. But the new jersey figure appears to be an anomaly. A single physician in a single nj hospital had been ignoring the regulations of the state medical association and performing d&xs in cases not involving the potential death or serious disability of the woman.
Ron fitzsimmons, executive director of the national coalition of abortion providers, estimated (nightline program, 1997-feb-26) a total of 3,000 to 4,000 annually in the us -- about ten a day.
Pro-life groups uncovered an internal memo by planned parenthood which estimated that up to 60 (0.24%) of the more than 25,000 abortions performed annually in virginia were d&xs. 1 if this figure is accurate nationally, then there would be up to 2,880 d&x procedures per year in the u.S.
Referring to a virginia state law, bennet greenberg, executive director of planned parenthood advocates of virginia said: "i'm not aware of a need for this bill in the first place, since this procedure is very, very rare, and i'm not aware it's ever been used [in virginia]." 4


why are d&x procedures performed?
This is a topic that is rarely discussed during public debates:

1st trimester: d&xs are not performed during the first three months of pregnancy, because there are better ways to perform abortions. There is no need to follow a d&x procedure, because the fetus' head quite small at this stage of gestation and can be quite easily removed from the woman's uterus.
2nd trimester: d&xs are very rarely performed in the late second trimester at a time in the pregnancy before the fetus is viable. These, like most abortions, are performed for a variety of reasons, including: she is not ready to have a baby for whatever reason and has delayed her decision to have an abortion into the second trimester. As mentioned above, 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester.
There are mental or physical health problems related to the pregnancy.
The fetus has been found to be dead, badly malformed, or suffering from a very serious genetic defect. This is often only detectable late in the second trimester.

3rd trimester: they are also very rarely performed in late pregnancy. The most common justifications at that time are: the fetus is dead.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.

In addition, some physicians violate their state medical association's regulations and perform elective d&x procedures - primarily on women who are suicidally depressed.

There appears to be no reliable data available on how many d&x procedures are performed for each of the above reasons.

The physician is faced with two main alternatives at this late point in pregnancy:

a hysterotomy, which is similar to a cesarean section, or
a d&x procedure

a midwifery web site quotes Dr. William f. Harrison, a diplomate of the american board of obstetrics and gynecology. 2 he wrote that "approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus while in the womb." about 5000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus each year in the u.S. This is not usually discovered until late in the second trimester. Some cases are not severe. After birth, shunts can be installed to relieve the excess fluid on the newborn's brain. A pre-natal method of removing the excess fluid is being experimentally evaluated. However, some cases are much more serious. "it is not unusual for the fetal head to be as large as 50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter and may contain...Close to two gallons of cerebrospinal fluid." in comparison, the average adult skull is about 7 to 8 inches in diameter. A fetus with severe hydrocephalus is alive, but as a newborn cannot live for long; it cannot achieve consciousness. The physician may elect to perform a d&x by draining off the fluid from the brain area, collapsing the fetal skull and withdrawing the dead fetus. Or, he might elect to perform a type of caesarian section. The former kills a fetus before birth; the latter allows the newborn to die after birth, on its own. A caesarian section is a major operation. It does expose the woman to a greatly increased chance of infection. It "poses its own dangers to a woman and any future pregnancies." 2 allowing a woman to continue in labor with a severely hydrocephalic fetus is not an option; an attempted vaginal delivery would kill her and the fetus.

There is evidence that the procedure is sometimes performed for other reasons: in the case of a very young pregnant woman, or a pregnancy which resulted from a rape or incest. Former surgeon general c. Everett koop has stated that no competent physician with state-of-the-art skill in the management of high-risk pregnancies needs to perform a d&x. Of course, many physicians lack this level of skill, and so need to resort to the d&x procedure. And, even in the united states, not all women have access to good quality pre-natal care. The u.S. Is the only developed country on earth that does not have a federal universal health care program. Many pregnant women first seek medical attention when they are about to deliver.

A committee of the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists (acog) thoroughly studied d&x procedures in 1996. They reported: "a select panel convened by acog could identify no circumstances under which this procedure...Would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman." they also determined that "an intact d&x, however, may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and only the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman's particular circumstances can make this decision." their statement was approved by the acog executive board on 1997-jan-12. 3




disinformation about d&xs:
abortions in general and d&xs in particular are extremely emotional topics for both pro-life and pro-choice activists. Sometimes the truth gets really bent out of shape:

on 1995-jul-19, on the radio program focus on the family Dr. Dobson referred to pbas as a type of "nazi era experimentation" in which doctors "suck the brain matter out of a living, viable baby for use in medical experiments". The incorrect impression given was that this is a procedure requested by researchers eager to study brain structure. They arbitrarily select an about-to-be-born fetus at random from the nearest delivery room, and kill it in order to get more research material. The program generated a flood of telephone calls which paralyzed federal government switchboards. To our knowledge, Dr. Dobson has never apologized for his misleading statements or corrected his misrepresentation of the facts.
Ron fitzsimmons, executive director of the national coalition of abortion providers testified in government hearings that only about 450 d&xs were performed annually in the united states. Later, on abc's nightline program, he admitted that he had lied about this figure in order to match the the lies and rhetoric by the other side in the debate. He now estimates that 3 to 4 thousand is a more accurate value.
Senator rick santorum, one of the leaders in the senate of a d&x ban, said that the procedure is a gruesome form of infanticide. [the term infanticide refers to the killing of a newborn infant; it is not applicable to an unborn fetus during a d&x procedure.] senator santorum also said that it is a lie to argue that a d&x is sometimes required to protect a woman from a serious health risk. But if he truly believed that statement, then he would not have objected to president clinton's request that an exemption be added to the bill in cases of serious health risks to the woman. After all, if there was no risk of a devastating health problem, then the exemption would never be exercised, and there would be no harm in including it in the bill.



References:
"virginia: pro-life groups work for partial-birth abortion ban," at: http://www.Champion.Org/cpc-partial.Htm
"information about hydrocephalus and d&x," at: http://www.Gentlebirth.Org/archives/hydrce ph.Html
"statement on so-called "partial birth abortion" laws by the american college of obstetricians and gynecologists," 2002-feb-13, at: http://www.Acog.Org/
lisa rein, "va. Passes ban on type of abortion: exception allowed for woman's health," washington post, 2002-mar-8, page a01, at: http://www.Washingtonpost.Com/


copyright ©1996 to 2004 incl. By ontario consultants on religious tolerance.

Most places i've read say abortion is illigal after the baby can be sustained outside of the womb by y'know.. Modern hospital equipment and all that good stuff.

I can't guarantee that's canada though.. But i'm pretty sure it is.

But in any other case, I think it's such a sad shame your friend is even considering this.. Especially at this late a date. (i also hope it's not too late). For one.. She's been feeling the baby move for how long now? Has our culture gotten so desensitized of life that this feels okay to a mother?

Something tells me your friend might've wanted attention but I won't judge - I just hope she makes the right choice because pretty soon, a beautiful healthy baby called her own will be looking back up into her eyes and feel her touch.

Much love everyone

any more lies you would like to tell?

Wow,even a pro-choice person would have to say at this late stage,no!!That baby can survive on its own,why not wait another month and give the baby up for adoption.Many people would give thier right arm for a baby,she needs to contact her local adoption agencies right away,they are more than ready to help her.Please be there for your friend!!She will need someone to help her through this time.I have friends who gave up their babies and they said it was the hardest thing they ever did,but it was the right thing to do.

Tell her to put it up for adoption.....That isnt abortion, thats homicide! My friends son was born at 7 months, and he starts kindergarten in a few weeks

Although i do not agree with abortion, having been pregnant alone and gone through such bad pre natal depression that i considered suicide because i didn't believe anything else was possible, i think people need to be a little more compassionate about people and instead of sitting there on your high horse calling people sick and murderers and disgusting human beings, which is going to make them feel worse and send them spiraling deeper into depression why not offer them the support they quite obviously crave and give them options, and links to people they can contact and phone numbers of the immediate help they can get. That at least is proactive and helpful. I am aware that everyone is entitled to there opinion but i think people should be a little more careful of what they say to people online, when this may be someone's only lifeline and only source of real help or support and to be so judgmental and evil when it may just be a cry for help, quite frankly makes me sad for society and humankind as a whole.

Being pro-choice, I cannot say that I disagree with a woman having an abortion at 8 months pregnant. I do not know the circumstances, such as maybe finding a birth defect at the end stage of pregnancy, financial changes, recent beating by boyfriend. I cannot pretend to know why she is choosing this, but it is very rare. Maybe she felt pressured to NOT have the abortion early on, so she chose to continue her pregnancy until the 8th month. We could speculate all day. I cannot say I agree, that there are no better options for her, but it is not my choice to make, it is not I who will be living with results of late term abortion. I do think she should just have the fetus and put it up for adoption, but it is not my decision to make. I also think it is wrong to judge her before we even know the circumstances surrounding her situation. As for it being homicide, it just depends on the circumstances. In most states you have until 3 months pregnant to abort, in some other areas, it is still up until the birth itself. But my main point is that you don't know this woman, don't know what she is going through, don't know what pain or relief she might be feeling...so how can you be so judgemental? If it were me talking to this woman, I would want to know why, is there someone threatening your life? Are you being physically abused? Did you feel pressured to stay pregnant even though you wanted that abortion earlier? Are you financially strapped? All of these questions when asked in a kind, unbiased manner, will yield answers that can help someone point the woman in a different, brighter direction. For example, I would point out that even though it is not my choice to make, what about delivery and adopting out? Does she know the risks of late term abortions, does she know that some fetuses survive? And if she is financially strapped, I could point her toward financial aide. If she is being abused, I could point her toward women's shelters. I think that what has the pro-choice/pro-life side so divided is that pro-life only sees pro-choice as allowing one decision...abortion. It is not true. For the most part, most pro-choicers are not exactly morally "for" abortion. With that being said, we are not "against" it either. We are for all three options surrounding a pregnancy, which include abortion, adoption and parenting. And we try to help a woman out based on her needs at the time. While we would never force her to continue a pregnancy against her will, we do often try to see what we can do to help her situation first, if she is financially strapped, being abused, very young...we point her in the right direction. If she still wishes to abort, it is her decision to make, and we respect that. We are not out to make every woman abort. We just want the option left available for those who truly feel it is the only option. I think resorting to namecalling before you know a situation is childish and can do more harm than good. Many a person has taken their own lives because of something somebody else said or did to them. I just thought I would remind you that words DO have an impact. Be nice. Stop namecalling. Try figuring out the situation and see what you can do to help.

I've been told over and over by pro-choicers that abortion is about removing a pregnancy or removing an unwanted fetus. And that removing fetuses unfortunately results in the death of those fetuses because of gestation. Other abortions are about killing the fetus because of health problems or risks which make sense. But, killing a HEALTHY 8 month fetus is unncessary. In this case, it is only about killing a very sentient unborn child who can feel pain. It is no different than killing a newborn. A woman who has financial problems or has an abusive partner cannot have her newborn killed. Why should she be able to kill an unborn baby if that unborn baby can easily live on its own?

I simply cannot see that at 8 months anyone would have or perform an abortion -- except in the sense that "abort" means to end prematurely, so that to abort a pregnancy is simply to end the pregnancy -- which would mean actually delivering the baby (and yes, if it is born and can survive it does suddenly qualify as a baby to me -- YMMV). In fact, many pregnancies are "aborted" by inducing labour early, for medical reasons.

The only abortions inolving killing the fetus that would be performed at that stage would almost certainly have to involve a fetus with abnormalities, eg anencephaly or something involving severe disability. I'd be surprised if anyone has evidence that a healthy fetus has ever been terminated at 8 months. Even f the mother's life was in danger at that stage, I would have thought that performing an emergency caesarean would be no more traumatic or dangerous than a vaginal abortion of a 5 or 5 lb fetus.

Oh geez, I didn't mean to stir the cauldron. First off, I just noticed that this is an old post. Secondly, the only reason I am defending this post is because I do not believe abortions are allowed that far along unless there are birth defects or as you said, oop, abruptly ending the pregnancy by delivery/birth. I am not advocating late term abortions. I am simply stating fact here...we do not know the circumstances, nor uhm do I exactly believe the OP's friend could seriously go along and get herself an abortion at 8 months pregnant. A lot of women jumped the gun and started spewing "homicide/baby killer" and I was just trying to be objective. The OP didn't really go into much detail, so I was thinking that either this friend was not really serious/emotionally distressed/had a fetus with birth defects. I was looking at it objectively. And NUN, if you had read my entire post, you would have seen that I would have wanted MORE information on the OP's friend's situation. That I always feel it is in the best interest of both the mother and the fetus to find out if there is an alternative to abortion. To help the mother figure out what she needs, and see if resources are available. I am sorry but I dislike when my posts are misread. I stated that I did not necessarily like the though of late term abortions, but I also stated that not enough information was provided, ie. were birth defects found that were not realized earlier? And as for the financial/abuse, if you had read my post correctly, you would have seen that I would try to point the woman towards financial aide/counselling/women's shelters. My point is, that I was not advocating this woman. It is highly unlikely that the OP's friend succeeded in the abortion, and if she did, it was probably due to medical reasons or she is in an area where that is allowed. I cannot decide for the woman herself, I can only provide her support and information. I can tell her the risks and what she will be doing, but ultimately, it is her choice, and if that choice is legal in her area, then there is nothing YOU or I can do to stop her. We can educate and that is about it. But I do want to add that this may have been a lifeline for the OP or her friend, and I do not believe sitting there namecalling would help. I feel providing information and advising to look up laws on abortion in the area where the OP/OP's friend lived, would have been more productive. And jumping to conclusions does not help. No one said this woman actually did that. I was simply providing my opinion on the matter. And my opinion, if read correctly was that I did not have the circumstances surrounding this woman and I would try my best to help prevent the abortion at that late a stage. By seeing WHY she would want one and steering her in the right direction for help. It makes me upset when people skip through my posts. You have to read the whole post before you can make a conclusion on what I meant.

I stopped reading your post after "And NUN, if you had read my entire post..." I mean, just what made you think I was even responding to you?! I would have hit the QUOTE button, or mention you somewhere.

You wasted your time writing this unnecessary rant.

Anyone can take 5 minutes to read the Roe vs. Wade decision for themselves. Just google it. The decision CLEARLY states that any state in the United States can make abortion illegal after viability. There is no way an abortion at 8 months is legal.

Also the so called "pba" ban has nothing to do with WHEN abortions are allowed. The ban did not shorten the time a woman has to hava an abortion, The ban simply is for one method of abortion.

By law access to abortion in the US is divided into three parts. During the first trimester it is simply the womans choice. This is the time in which almost all abortions occur.

The second trimester the and more so the third trimester the States are allowed to restrict and define the requirements for an abortion.

Rape, incest, fetal anomally, threat to the womans physical or mental health (the brain and its functions are part of a womans body) all factor into wether she can qualify or not for an abortion.

A woman who is eight months pregnant in my state cannot simply walk in and request an abortion with out a compelling reason that is verified by a second independent Doctor.

She may get an appointment to come in for a sonogram and another for the second Doctor. Neither of these appointments will guarnty she can have the procedure. Pts are told this all along the line and many who come for the first appointments and second appointment will still be turned away for not meeting the criteria.

Women and their families who have late term abortions have done much soul searching. They are usually referred to the clinic by their own doctors, geneticists or law enforcement. It is not a decision they came to lightly. They have evaluated their own personal situation and that of their families, they have thought long and hard about the procedure its consequences and what is best for their families and situations.

I work with these women and their families and for most the pregnancy was very much wanted and something has gone very wrong with the fetus or the womans health. This is not something choosen lightly or becuase it is convienient.

It is a good idea to read the actual Roe decision and then read the law pretaining to your state.

I am now 8months pregnant and when I first found out I was pregnat abortion was considered but at the time I was only 1 1/2 months and it still bothered me that early one, it was something that I could not live with, I feel like everyone has a choice and you have to do whats right for you but how can you even consider that option at 8 months?? my daughter kicks and bounces so much, even though I have yet to see her I know she is there and she is my baby. That sistuation is CRAZY and SAD to me

I found a website that does elective abortions up to 26 weeks. But third trimester abortions are NOT illegal in the US, you can have an abortion up till the child emrges alive to preserve the woman's health or life. Of course it makes no sense that killing a viable fetus preserves the health of anyone but that is what was written. Most places will just deliver the baby alive but each woman in distress has the option of aborting her fetus in the third trimester via partial birth and scissor jab to the brain of the fetus while the rest of the body dangles outside of her birth canal. Bush made it illegal, President Obama lifted the ban.

I believe in abortion. I'm sick of reading these ignorant women saying, pray to God that yoru mentally sick friend gets help because she's a terrible murderer.
What they do at a pregnancy of 6 months and on is they pull the child out legs first and while the head is still in the mothers body, they snap the neck and kill the child.
I personally believe the first 2 months, maybe 3(pretty much the first term of pregnancy), is fine but once it develope a heart and lungs, I think it's wrong to killing the child.
I am a Christian and have these beliefs.

AT 8 months the child-yes child because at that point its just sitting there getting stronger, in fact a pregnant woman inhaling harmful fumes is more likely to survive than a non pregnant woman inhaling fumes because teh pregnant woman's viable baby would get the brunt of the bad stuff making it easier for the pregnant woman to survive. Once viability is reached if you go in for an abortion labor should be induced and the child should be born. You go your way the kid goes his/her way and the two of you never speak to each other again in yuor natural lives. Boom, you're not a parent and you're not pregnant. Why is it necessary to kill it before delivery to save the mother's life when its almost out anyway? I'll never understand that. But like someone said SHE would live with that decision on her own I would never support a d&x (partial birth abortion) for a viable fetus. I don't think it should be illegal but I wouldn't *be there* for someone who wanted to have that procedure done. It's illogical to me, simply delivering the child as opposed to snapping his/her neck or scrambling his/her brains would suffice. If you dont want to be pregnant, remove the fetus. If you dont want to be a parent put the baby up for adoption. Once you go scrambling the brains of someone who doesn't need you and is out of your body to avoid being a parent, things get shaky. I changed my field over this, being a gyn means that you'd HAVE to perform an abortion on a perfectly healthy fetus as opposed to delivering even a day early if the mother chooses abortion by brain scrambling over premature birth.