The above was mine, by the way. I have no idea why it keeps logging me on as a guest.
Peace,
jenn

That is a great post .Jenn but their are not a lot of people that see these situatiions and see this happening so therefore, they do not understand, they do not care if a fetus or a child is suffering or their mother is gone, too many pro-lifer's feel that it is quantity not quality of life, they feel their is a miracle pill or a miracle surgery, well, news flash, .Not .Often .Enough!
The man above is not always there! Work in neo-natal, hold a child or baby that you know that will not live long, especially when you knew before birth that this was the way it was going to be and then you say pro-choice are selfish when the family walks away and is not with the baby anymore, come on, I have seen this too many times, when the fetus could be aborted instead of left to suffer, I was told twice that if I did not abort that if my fetuses would have made it full term that they would have never had made it(once kicked in the stomach at 5&1/2 months preg. And another time when an iud was in the fetus' head a long time ago) yes, I had to make decisions and to this day I feel I made the right one's.
I could not live with the thought that I lived knowing that my mother died for me, even though I realize that that the man above possibly gave his life for us.
Look at my situation I went on using a condom and b/c pill and used the pill as I was supposed to use them and still got pregnant and miscarried after that, I gave up having kids because I and my new dr felt that their was too much danger after being kicked and then I had two wonderful grown adults now. Pro-choice are not selfish and we are very understanding the way I see it, it is too bad that pro-life do not see it that way but you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink and we are all different that is what makes the world go round.

That post was mine, it happened to me too jenn but I was gone for a short time.

Thank you for the last two wonderful topics, jenn!

I agree totally with this post and your last one jenn, great topics

I realise this is a very old thread but I was just wondering if anyone could tell me whether, in a 'partial birth abortion', the baby is alive until the doctor pierces the skull or if steps are taken to ensure the baby is dead at that point.

Sorry to ask such a graphic question but I just wondered as i'd not heard of this procedure before.

I have a random question... How the heck is a fetal head "50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter and may contain ... Close to two gallons ... Of cerebrospinal fluid." (the average *adult* skull is about 7 to 8" in diameter.) "

that makes absolutely .N.O sense. Not to suddenly discredit the material, but... Our heads get larger as we mature after birth, not smaller. No woman would be able to giuve brith to a baby with a head that was 20 inches in diameter either. And why are adult heads only 7-8 inches, when a fetal skull is 20 inches!? I think there is a serious mistake somewhere. Like extra zeros. It is also impossible for a fetal skull to contain .T.W.O. Gallons of liquid! Think about a gallon of milk people; that's almost as big as most newborn's entire bodies.

i do believe that steps are indeed taken to euthanise the baby first.

the disease, hydrocephaly, which literaly translates to "water brain" causes the cranium to be filled, not with gray matter which will form into the brain but with water and other fluids. With no real bones at that point, the thin layer of skin simply inflates like a baloon with the increase of the amount of liquid. The doctor quoted in the original post stated that this may occur up to 50 centimeters. Not every fetus afflicted with this disease will experience this much water gain. The doctor giving the interview most likely stated the worst possible scenario or the worst that he had seen. Plus, a woman's uterus is designed to expand even more so than a normal pregnancy forces it to. It is not impossible that the woman's body could not accomodate the fetus afflicted with this disease but the pressure on the rest of her body is probably what would cause her to seek out medical care at that stage.

Since there is no brain and since it is just fluid that fills the cranial cavity and swells it, the fluid must be extracted before the expanding cranium puts the woman's internal organs in danger. This is why the d&x was first developed, to extract the fluid to save the woman's health and life.

With proper prenatal testing done in the second and third trimester, it can be discovered whether the fetus is afflicted with this horrible disease. The mild cases of this disease can be treated in utero and a healthy child can be born (though if it is not caught soon enough mental retardation can occur). In the severe cases or cases left untreated, the fetus' head will swell until it puts the woman's organs, health, and life at risk. Once this occurs, most responsible doctors will end the pregnancy, extract the fluid, and then abort the fetus. Since there was no brain only fluid, the fetus is dead when it is removed from the woman's body. The only thing actually keeping it "alive" (and I do use that term loosely in this sense) was its physical connection to the woman. In these cases, the fetus is more like a growth, using the woman's body and resources to grow (but not develop) until it puts the woman in danger.

I hope I answered your question. I, too, found it hard to believe that such a thing were possible but this is a very real and unfortunate disease and one we cannot detect until the second trimester. The website I tried to reference earlier had pictures to show these fetus' but they are very graphic.
Peace,
jenn

it would depend on your definition of "alive", happy. The fetus with this disease would have a head that was continuing to grow in size but not fully develop. Like a growth or a parasite, the fetus with this disease is using the woman's resources but using them incorrectly. Instead of developing like a "normal" fetus, all of the resources are going to increase the amount of fluid in the cranial cavity. This fetus would have little to no actual brain matter.

Without a true brain, without developing past the second trimester, and without reaching other milestones during pregnancy, the fetus can not survive outside of the uterus but the longer it stays, the more danger it places on the woman's health and life. There is no hope of a live birth for a fetus with an advanced stage of this disease.

I don't believe the fetus is alive to begin with since it lacks a brain. At the stage when the pregnancy is ended, I feel it is merciful to take the fetus off of its "life support", the woman so that the woman may grieve (if she wishes) and heal her body.

I think of it a lot like my grandfather who had an aneurism (stroke) and the family had to make the decision to remove him from life support. My grandfather's brain had been covered by blood inside his head and the pressure was slowly shutting down his brain. When they did a few tests to see if his brain was still functioning, there was no evidence that it was responding to any of the stimuli. My grandfather's heart still beat, his lungs still inflated and deflated with air, and, in fact, he was even making snoring noises as if he were asleep. But none of that changed the fact that my grandfather died and left during the stroke and his body fought against that fact. I think of these unfortunate fetus' with water instead of a brain as I think of my grandfather - they are already gone and it is simply up to the rest of us to see that their bodies eventually accept that.

Unlike my grandfather, however, the poor fetus' with this disease are within another person's body and are threatening that person with their very presence just like a growth or parasite. I support d&x procedures because they are the best option for these women to ensure that their lives and health are safe.

Thank you jenn, I didn't realise it could be that serious, and that it was a reference to a worst-case scenario!! :)

That kind of abortion is disgusting, and almost murderous like, but if it's needed for thing like those, then it's understandable. But I don't think anyone should get that kind of abortion just cuz they decided just then they didn't want a child anymore, they should have decided that earlier.

are you paying any attention?

First, at that stage of the pregnancy, you cannot elect to obtain an abortion. You must show why the abortion is needed either through a health or life risk.

Secondly, women are not stupid. I, for one, am .S.O sick of the stereotype of the stupid woman who wakes up one day when she's six months pregnant and just decides on a whim to end the pregnancy. We don't wait for five, six, or more months and then one day wake up and think, "i think i'll get an abortion today after I finish my cherios." pregnancies that progress to this stage are wanted pregnancies. At this stage, the pregnant woman has started thinking about where her child will sleep, what it will wear, and is likely starting to go to baby showers thrown in her honor. But, because we can only test for certain defects and diseases during the second trimester, she finds out that her fetus is suffering from a fatal disease/defect. She has no choice if she wants to live and possibly have children in the future but to obtain an abortion.

This procedure, a d & x, is used when it is the safest and so that the woman may stay healthy and keep her fertility in tact. Other procedures are available to end the pregnancy, but they are less safe and pose far more health risks to the woman.

Don't believe everything you're told.

exactly, I adore your way with words. So truthful. If only pro-lifers would/could finally understand. Where are you when were are having debates with the pro-lifers in the debate forum, woman! We could have done with the things you say.

i usually steer clear of the debate forum as several individuals have yet to learn that when someone disagrees with them, it's not an insult or an attack. it's just someone who disagrees with them. I cannot stand the way that the conversation quickly degrades into a name-calling session either. I tend to visit this board, the abortion support board because i've been there too, and occasionally the birth control boards to help answer questions.

Besides, with an abortion debate on the internet, you're not really there to convince anyone of anything because they are already set in their opinions. On some debate boards, people can remain civil while they simply go over the beliefs and opinions of both sides over and over. I have not seen that happen on this board.