Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 10 Location: North America
Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead. Posted: 02-27-06 09:53am
Personhood and other abstract notions are
irrelevant in the discussion about
abortion. The capacity to think is not
the measure of whether something is alive.
Once fertilization has occurred what you
have is an unborn human life. From the
the two, man and woman, one new human life
has been made. To commit abortion means
to kill that unborn human life. There can
be no denying this. Roe v. Wade is a
meaningless court decision in relation to
the laws of nature and creation. Abortion
is the wanton and needless killing of
unborn human life. You can attack
christians but that does not change these
facts.
Sex causes pregnancy! Abortion causes
death.
You can banter words all you want and it
may only assuage your troubled or
lingering consciences. To justify
abortion is a rationalization to avoid the
guilt of killling. People cannot redefine
the act of "abortion" any more than they
can redifine the word "kill". The two
words are interchangeable. Abortion
exists to negate the consequences of
irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion
exists as a lie to cover up ones own
indiscretions is their sexual activities.
Abortion exists as a means of clearing
paths for ones own self in the most
blatant example of human selfishness
imaginable. Abortion is way of putting
ones own right to exsit above that of
another. What kind of human being
creates a life like itself, to then only
kill it?
|
Moo
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Re: Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead. Posted: 02-27-06 10:12am
alternativethinker
wrote:
personhood and other
abstract notions are irrelevant in the
discussion about abortion. The capacity
to think is not the measure of whether
something is alive. Once fertilization
has occurred what you have is an unborn
human life.
they are very relevant. Abortion is not a
simple issue with a singular concern.
No-one denies that a z/e/f is alive or
what happens at conception
alternativethinker
wrote:
from the the two, man and
woman, one new human life has been made.
To commit abortion means to kill that
unborn human life. There can be no
denying this.
and? I don't see anyone denying this,
perhaps using the correct biological terms
instead of emotional dribble, but no
denial.
alternativethinker
wrote:
roe v. Wade is a
meaningless court decision in relation to
the laws of nature and creation.
from what I can gather it's a pretty
meaningful court decision.( note the
abortion act wasn't 'some court decison').
Abortion was happening for a long time
before either of those laws were placed
though, they simply allowed access to
legal abortion
alternativethinker
wrote:
abortion is the wanton and
needless killing of unborn human life.
You can attack christians but that does
not change these facts.
well, you may believe it's needless, I
don't. I don't 'attack' christians, I
question everything and religion is no
exception to that
alternativethinker
wrote:
sex causes pregnancy!
Abortion causes death.
sex doesn't necessarily cause pregnancy
alternativethinker
wrote:
you can banter words all you
want and it may only assuage your troubled
or lingering consciences. To justify
abortion is a rationalization to avoid the
guilt of killling.
i don't have a troubled conscience or
guilt
alternativethinker
wrote:
people cannot redefine the
act of "abortion" any more than they can
redifine the word "kill". The two words
are interchangeable.
abortion doesn't need to be redefined,
it's the termination of a pregnancy and to
do so a z/e/f must die.
The words aren't interchangable - "kill"
covers a wide spectrum, abortion a slight
one.
alternativethinker
wrote:
abortion exists to negate
the consequences of irresponsible sexual
behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to
cover up ones own indiscretions is their
sexual activities. Abortion exists as a
means of clearing paths for ones own self
in the most blatant example of human
selfishness imaginable. Abortion is way
of putting ones own right to exsit above
that of another.
so, only people having casual sex abort?
This would seem to be the implication and,
if it is, you're totally wrong
alternativethinker
wrote:
what kind of human being
creates a life like itself, to then only
kill it?
many people, there's no one 'type' of
person who aborts
|
oopoopoop
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Re: Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead. Posted: 02-27-06 10:51am
alternativethinker
wrote:
personhood and other
abstract notions are irrelevant in the
discussion about abortion.
i completely agree. The only issue is
whether or not a woman has bodily
integrity.
alternativethinker
wrote:
the capacity to think is
not the measure of whether something is
alive.
absolutely true. A fungus is alive. A
tapeworm is alive.
alternativethinker
wrote:
once fertilization has
occurred what you have is an unborn human
life. From the the two, man and woman,
one new human life has been made. To
commit abortion means to kill that unborn
human life. There can be no denying
this.
nope. Absolutely correct. That is
entirely the point of abortion.
Otherwise, you could just scrape it out,
put it in a jar, and feed it jellybeans.
alternativethinker
wrote:
roe v. Wade is a
meaningless court decision in relation to
the laws of nature and creation.
r v w is not an issue for me. But as I
understand, it had to do with a woman's
right to privacy under the us
constitution. As such, it doesn't
actually have anything to do with biology,
except to assert that a fetus is part of a
woman's body. So actually, it is pretty
meaningful in stating the obvious.
alternativethinker
wrote:
abortion is the wanton and
needless killing of unborn human life.
You can attack christians but that does
not change these facts.
hardly wanton and needless. You were
doing pretty well on facts up until now.
Also, I can't understand why you have
suddenly brought christians into it. But
thank you for permission to attack them.
alternativethinker
wrote:
sex causes pregnancy!
Abortion causes death.
sex sometimes causes pregnancy. For
women. Unfair, isn't it?
Abortion causes the death of an unwanted
z/e/f, but saves far more women's lives
than it ends. Interestingly, abortion
rarely kills men.
alternativethinker
wrote:
you can banter words all
you want and it may only assuage your
troubled or lingering consciences. To
justify abortion is a rationalization to
avoid the guilt of killling.
not getting this at all, sorry. Do you
have a guilty conscience you are needing
to get over? No rationalization involved
for me. The ending of an unwanted
pregnancy is one of the greatest reliefs
imaginable.
alternativethinker
wrote:
people cannot redefine the
act of "abortion" any more than they can
redifine the word "kill". The two words
are interchangeable.
kill is a very broad word. I have killed
goldfish. I have killed houseplants.
Abortion is a bit more accurate: removing
an unwanted embryo or fetus from the womb
which, incidentally, dies as a result.
You wouldn't say you "abort" a houseplant,
or a slug -- abort means to terminate
prematurely.
alternativethinker
wrote:
abortion exists to negate
the consequences of irresponsible sexual
behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to
cover up ones own indiscretions is their
sexual activities.
i'm getting a lot of misogyny out of this.
Because men can be as irresponsible as
they like, can't they? Men can be as
indiscrete as they like. But how dare
women have sex because they want to and
not just to make babies? I hate to break
it to you, but not all women who have
abortions are wanton w hores.
alternativethinker
wrote:
abortion exists as a means
of clearing paths for ones own self in the
most blatant example of human selfishness
imaginable. Abortion is way of putting
ones own right to exsit above that of
another. What kind of human being
creates a life like itself, to then only
kill it?
well, women who don't want to be pregnant,
I guess. How selfish is that, to not want
to play incubator to a parasite? How
selfish is it not to want to bring a
handicapped and deformed being into the
world? How selfish is it to say, I need
to be able to feed the children I already
have?
You saying it is wrong and selfish does
not make it so.
|
Tylanas
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Posted: 02-27-06 10:52am
Thank you, moo :) you covered everything,
just as I would have...
I don't really see why this needs to be
posted... I mean, did I not just post in
a pre-existing topic that yes, abortion
killed fetuses but no, that wasn't the
whole point?
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alternativethinker
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 10 Location: North America
Posted: 02-27-06 12:13pm
"i don't really see why this needs to be
posted... "
-because the pro-abortion crowd does not
get it yet. Abortion is killing.
"the only issue is whether or not a woman
has bodily integrity."
-abortion does not kill the womans body,
it kills someone elses.
"sex sometimes causes pregnancy. For
women. Unfair, isn't it?"
-pregnancy is always caused by sex, unless
you are one of the test tube crowd.
"abortion causes the death of an unwanted
z/e/f, but saves far more women's lives
than it ends. Interestingly, abortion
rarely kills men."
-z/e/f ??? What is that anyway? Try
saying unborn child, keep saying it until
it makes sense! Unborn child, unborn
child...
"i'm getting a lot of misogyny out of
this. Because men can be as irresponsible
as they like, can't they? Men can be as
indiscrete as they like. But how dare
women have sex because they want to and
not just to make babies? I hate to break
it to you, but not all women who have
abortions are wanton w hores."
-men are just as culpable in abortion.
Men are equally responsible for abortion.
|
Moo
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Posted: 02-27-06 13:02pm
alternativethinker
wrote:
-because the pro-abortion crowd does not
get it yet. Abortion is
killing
i assume you mean pro-choicers and, on
that basis, did you actually read the
answers? If so, why would you possibly
think that pro-choicers don't know that an
embryo or fetus dies in the procedure?
I know what abortion does and I know h.O.W
it does it so can you please explain what
it is that you think I "don't get"?
alternativethinker
wrote:
-abortion does not kill the
womans body, it kills someone
elses.
yes the embryo or fetus dies, the fact
that is can only exist within the womans
uterus means that it's her choice as to
whether this happens. Pregnancy effects
her body, it's not all about the fetus.
alternativethinker
wrote:
-pregnancy is always caused
by sex, unless you are one of the test
tube crowd.
but sex doesn't always cause pregnancy.
There's a difference.
alternativethinker
wrote:
-z/e/f ??? What is that
anyway?
zygote/embryo/fetus - the stages of human
biology before birth (and before 'baby'
!)
alternativethinker
wrote:
try saying unborn child,
keep saying it until it makes sense!
Unborn child, unborn
child...
why should we use this emotive language
when we can use the correct terms? I
could call it an unborn child if you
wanted, just to show that I do understand
but i'd rather not as it's inncorrect.
Y.O.U try saying z/e/f
|
oopoopoop
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Posted: 02-27-06 13:47pm
alternativethinker
wrote:
-men are just as culpable in abortion.
Men are equally responsible for
abortion.
but they aren't the ones who get pregnant.
So it doesn't matter. It's only women
you want to see punished for having sex
you don't approve of.
|
sandyallen
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Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4580
Altrnative Thinker Posted: 02-27-06 18:24pm
You need to learn to think! Sex does not
always = pregnancy look at all of those
who have tried and tried for years. I
suppose you do not refer to those females
that are successsfully using b/c an do not
fall pregnant ot even the females that
have had a hysterectomy oor a male that
has been through his surgery, I suppose
that you would not say that they are
having sex but they are not getting
pregnant so where do you get this that sex
= pregnancy.
Cars kill z/e/f's, children baby's along
with guns and other people so it is not
just abortion and who is to say that that
z/e/f or baby or child to be would have
made it through the pregnany anyway,
sometimes things happen for the better,
for a reason.
Again, we are not pro-abortion, we are
pro-choice as we are ffor a choice for a
female to carry and keep thechild through
the pregnancy to adopt(with a big question
mark), or to abort as it is her choice as
we are not walking in her shoes and we do
not know what the hell that she is going
through. Some people really need to open
up and be more understanding and realize
that accidents do happen and you could be
using all the protection and are being
responsible if that person were to fall
pregnant then she should haave her choice
aand at anytime sh should haave her choice
if she feels sshe will be an unfit mother
and is not ready as people will have sex.
I would rather see an abortion than an
abuse or neglect case anyday, but again,
that is my feelings towards the
situsation!
|
alternativethinker
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 10 Location: North America
Posted: 02-27-06 19:15pm
"sex does not always = pregnancy"
you cant get a pregnancy without sex
though. Read the equation properly would
you?
"i would rather see an abortion than an
abuse or neglect case anyday, but again,
that is my feelings towards the
situsation!"
i have known more than one person that had
a terrible childhood and became a great
person with a lot to offer the world.
Would you have abortion erase all forms of
unpleasant possibilities in life for a
child?
These couples that are trying to have
children that no one else wants or cant
raise. Oh, thats right, you cant adopt
dead children that have been aborted!
|
Moo
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Posted: 02-27-06 19:21pm
alternativethinker
wrote:
you cant get a pregnancy without sex
though. Read the equation properly would
you?
everyone appears to have read it properly
and no-one is denying that pregnancy is
the result of sex (unless ivf etc..)
alternativethinker
wrote:
these couples that are
trying to have children that no one else
wants or cant raise. Oh, thats right,
you cant adopt dead children that have
been aborted!
it's unfortunate that some couples cannot
have children but it's not the
responsibility of others to continue their
pregnancy for this reason. If a woman
choses to have her unwanted child adopted
then all credit to her. You should
realise though that this isn't always an
'attractive' option
|
Tylanas
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Posted: 02-27-06 20:25pm
alternativethinker
wrote:
"sex does not always =
pregnancy"
you cant get a pregnancy without sex
though. Read the equation properly
would you?
actually, you can.
Invitro-fertilization, duh.
Quote:
"i would rather
see an abortion than an abuse or neglect
case anyday, but again, that is my
feelings towards the situsation!"
i have known more than one person that had
a terrible childhood and became a great
person with a lot to offer the world.
Would you have abortion erase all forms of
unpleasant possibilities in life for a
child?
i'd rather seen an aborted fetus than a
raped and murdered child.
Quote:
these couples
that are trying to have children that no
one else wants or cant raise. Oh, thats
right, you cant adopt dead children that
have been
aborted!
if there are so damn many of them, then
why are there so many children in adoption
homes with no one wanting them?
|
Tylanas
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Posted: 02-27-06 20:34pm
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
if there are so damn many of
them, then why are there so many children
in adoption homes with no one wanting
them?
doesn't matter. There is no right to
procreation. Too bad if you can't
concieve.
stop being stupid. I was saying that if
there are "supposedly" so many couples out
there who can't conceive, and who want to
adopt children, then why are there still
so many unadopted kids out there? There
should be a high demands for them, but
there isn't. Kids are growing up into
adults in adoption centers because no one
wants them.
I'm saying that the whole "give up the
baby for adoption instead of killing it"
thing is total bull, because almost no one
wants that kid. I've heard infertile,
sick-minded women say "i don't want to
adopt because I could never love it
because it wouldn't be mine."
|
lsipes
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 325
Re: Altrnative Thinker Posted: 02-27-06 20:40pm
sandyallen
wrote:
you need to learn to think!
Sex does not always = pregnancy look at
all of those who have tried and tried for
years. I suppose you do not refer to
those females that are successsfully using
b/c an do not fall pregnant ot even the
females that have had a hysterectomy oor a
male that has been through his surgery, I
suppose that you would not say that they
are having sex but they are not getting
pregnant so where do you get this that sex
= pregnancy.
Cars kill z/e/f's, children baby's along
with guns and other people so it is not
just abortion and who is to say that that
z/e/f or baby or child to be would have
made it through the pregnany anyway,
sometimes things happen for the better,
for a reason.
Again, we are not pro-abortion, we are
pro-choice as we are ffor a choice for a
female to carry and keep thechild through
the pregnancy to adopt
(with a big question mark), or to abort as
it is her choice as we are not walking in
her shoes and we do not know what the hell
that she is going through. Some people
really need to open up and be more
understanding and realize that accidents
do happen and you could be using all the
protection and are being responsible if
that person were to fall pregnant then she
should haave her choice aand at anytime sh
should haave her choice if she feels sshe
will be an unfit mother and is not ready
as people will have sex.
I would rather see an abortion than an
abuse or neglect case anyday, but again,
that is my feelings towards the
situsation!
i agree. But I want to add: it saddens
me to see people constantly saying "it
doesn't matter, I know what I would do".
I used to say the exact same thing. I
was so naive to believe that I would
never, could never, even *think* about
aborting a pregnancy. No matter how
strong you think your convictions are
(mine were pretty damn strong) you will
*never ever ever ever ever!!!!!* know what
you will do if you're put into a really
bad situation, no matter what the
circumstances of said bad situation. You
will never know. I can assure you of
that. You won't believe me, but it's the
truth. People amaze themselves every
day... Nothing makes you any different.
|
Cambion
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Posted: 02-27-06 20:51pm
Quote:
once
fertilization has occurred what you have
is an unborn human
life.
i won't deny this...But just because
something is a life of human nature, it
does not mean the "life" is a person.
People may be human, but human doesn't
always necessarily mean person.
Quote:
abortion is the
wanton and needless killing of unborn
human life. You can attack christians but
that does not change these facts.
abortion is not "needless" to the woman
who is well aware of the fact that she is
not ready for a child or knows she would
make an awful parent. Abortion is not
needless - it is needed.
Quote:
sex causes
pregnancy!
yes, that is true...But sex is not the
only way for a woman to conceive. There
is the option of in-vitro fertilization,
or women who will get pregnant after their
partner touches their genitals with semen
on their hands (the typical story you hear
from the teenage girls who freak out about
being knocked up).
Quote:
abortion exists
to negate the consequences of
irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion
exists as a lie to cover up ones own
indiscretions is their sexual activities.
Abortion exists as a means of clearing
paths for ones own self in the most
blatant example of human selfishness
imaginable. Abortion is way of putting
ones own right to exsit above that of
another. What kind of human being creates
a life like itself, to then only kill
it?
this had to be the most idiotic part of
your post. First of all, how do you know
that all abortions occur because of
irresponsible sexual habits? You don't
think that there are women out there who
are responsible enough to utilize
contraception? Many women seek abortion
as an alternative when their protection
fails. Is using protection now deemed
"irresponsible"? If so, please elaborate
on this matter.
Abortion is, by no means, a selfish act.
It is, by far, more humane to terminate
the life of an unborn zygote or fetus than
to allow it to be born into a world where
it will not be wanted or loved. I will
assume that you enjoy reading the stories
of kids being neglected and abused by
their parents who more than likely did not
want them, or kids who will grow up in
foster homes and get booted out at 18,
wondering if anyone loves them.
People play god all the time - whether
it's taking cold medicine or having a
life-saving surgery. Abortion is a
blessing for some women, and I am sick of
people putting the life of a potential
person that can't see, think, or breathe
above the life of the woman who is
burdened with a pregnancy that she never
wanted. The woman is the one who is
breathing and thinking, and is living her
life...Not the bloody fetus. The born
person should always have more of a reason
to exist than a human fetus with the
potential of life outside the womb.
I have never heard of a woman getting
knocked up intentionally just to get an
abortion. From what I know, the procedure
can be very painful, both physically and
emotionally, and it is not exactly cheap
if it's done legally. As much as I hate
children, and as sadistic as my mind is,
even I would not purposely get myself
pregnant just to abort. It's not a
pleasing experience.
Quote:
'm saying that
the whole "give up the baby for adoption
instead of killing it" thing is total
bull, because almost no one wants that
kid. I've heard infertile, sick-minded
women say "i don't want to adopt because I
could never love it because it wouldn't be
mine."
this is precisely the reason why I find
abortion to be both justifiable and
humane. Some fool women think that it's
what's in the blood that makes the child
theirs, and nothing else. If they would
pull their heads far enough out of their
arses, they would come to realize that
it's the love given to the child by the
mother that makes the kid theirs...Not the
genes.
|
Moo
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Re: Altrnative Thinker Posted: 02-28-06 07:00am
lsipes
wrote:
no matter how strong you
think your convictions are (mine were
pretty damn strong) you will *never ever
ever ever ever!!!!!* know what you will do
if you're put into a really bad situation,
no matter what the circumstances of said
bad situation.
.
i totally agree. You can believe you know
what you'd do but, unless actually faced
with it, you can never know 100%
|
Tylanas
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Posted: 02-28-06 08:36am
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
if there are so damn many of
them, then why are there so many children
in adoption homes with no one wanting
them?
doesn't matter. There is no right to
procreation. Too bad if you can't
concieve.
stop being
stupid.
you should take your own advice. It
doesn't matter if every unwanted child had
a home. It still doesn't give a fundie
the right to tell another person they are
nothing more than a breeding machine for
infertile
couples.
i'm not saying it does, fool. I'm
pro-choice too, or did you forget again?
Obviously they don't have a right to force
women to procreate. And I was trying to
bring to light their flawed logic. They
think lots of people want these babies but
the truth is that almost no one does. So
abortion is the better choice, unless the
mother herself decides to give it up
instead.
|
w0rldd0minat0r
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 238
Posted: 02-28-06 15:58pm
If u dont want a kid dont have sex stop
beind so damn horny!!!!!
Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
Moo
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
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Posted: 02-28-06 16:13pm
w0rldd0minat0r
wrote:
if u dont want a kid dont
have sex stop beind so damn
horny!!!!
because it's that simple and everybody
wants to practice abstinence :roll:
the fact is that eople are going to have
sex, whether or not they want to have
children. It's enjoyable/a way to be
intimate with someone/fun - there are many
reasons to have sex and procreating is
only one of them.
You can make it practically impossible to
get pregnant through
contraception/timing.
Also, not all abortions are carried out
because people don't want children.
That was a very onstructive post, carry
on!
|
sandyallen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4580
Posted: 02-28-06 19:27pm
I suppose after they get this abortion
thing passed to where no one can have an
abortion, the next thing is is that the
state/ government will be telling us we
cannot have sex, thank goodness, I will be
dead by that time. Again abortion has
been around long before roe vs. Wade and
will be around a lot longer after they
decide against abortion.
