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Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead.

Personhood and other abstract notions are irrelevant in the discussion about abortion. The capacity to think is not the measure of whether something is alive. Once fertilization has occurred what you have is an unborn human life. From the the two, man and woman, one new human life has been made. To commit abortion means to kill that unborn human life. There can be no denying this. Roe v. Wade is a meaningless court decision in relation to the laws of nature and creation. Abortion is the wanton and needless killing of unborn human life. You can attack christians but that does not change these facts.

Sex causes pregnancy! Abortion causes death.

You can banter words all you want and it may only assuage your troubled or lingering consciences. To justify abortion is a rationalization to avoid the guilt of killling. People cannot redefine the act of "abortion" any more than they can redifine the word "kill". The two words are interchangeable. Abortion exists to negate the consequences of irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to cover up ones own indiscretions is their sexual activities. Abortion exists as a means of clearing paths for ones own self in the most blatant example of human selfishness imaginable. Abortion is way of putting ones own right to exsit above that of another. What kind of human being creates a life like itself, to then only kill it?
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replied February 27th, 2006
Extremely eHealthy
Re: Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead.
alternativethinker wrote:
personhood and other abstract notions are irrelevant in the discussion about abortion. The capacity to think is not the measure of whether something is alive. Once fertilization has occurred what you have is an unborn human life.

they are very relevant. Abortion is not a simple issue with a singular concern. No-one denies that a z/e/f is alive or what happens at conception

alternativethinker wrote:
from the the two, man and woman, one new human life has been made. To commit abortion means to kill that unborn human life. There can be no denying this.

and? I don't see anyone denying this, perhaps using the correct biological terms instead of emotional dribble, but no denial.

alternativethinker wrote:
roe v. Wade is a meaningless court decision in relation to the laws of nature and creation.

from what I can gather it's a pretty meaningful court decision.( note the abortion act wasn't 'some court decison'). Abortion was happening for a long time before either of those laws were placed though, they simply allowed access to legal abortion

alternativethinker wrote:
abortion is the wanton and needless killing of unborn human life. You can attack christians but that does not change these facts.

well, you may believe it's needless, I don't. I don't 'attack' christians, I question everything and religion is no exception to that

alternativethinker wrote:
sex causes pregnancy! Abortion causes death.

sex doesn't necessarily cause pregnancy


alternativethinker wrote:
you can banter words all you want and it may only assuage your troubled or lingering consciences. To justify abortion is a rationalization to avoid the guilt of killling.

i don't have a troubled conscience or guilt

alternativethinker wrote:
people cannot redefine the act of "abortion" any more than they can redifine the word "kill". The two words are interchangeable.

abortion doesn't need to be redefined, it's the termination of a pregnancy and to do so a z/e/f must die.
The words aren't interchangable - "kill" covers a wide spectrum, abortion a slight one.


alternativethinker wrote:
abortion exists to negate the consequences of irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to cover up ones own indiscretions is their sexual activities. Abortion exists as a means of clearing paths for ones own self in the most blatant example of human selfishness imaginable. Abortion is way of putting ones own right to exsit above that of another.

so, only people having casual sex abort? This would seem to be the implication and, if it is, you're totally wrong

alternativethinker wrote:
what kind of human being creates a life like itself, to then only kill it?

many people, there's no one 'type' of person who aborts
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replied February 27th, 2006
Extremely eHealthy
Re: Once You Kill An Unborn Human Life, Its Dead.
alternativethinker wrote:
personhood and other abstract notions are irrelevant in the discussion about abortion.


i completely agree. The only issue is whether or not a woman has bodily integrity.

alternativethinker wrote:
the capacity to think is not the measure of whether something is alive.


absolutely true. A fungus is alive. A tapeworm is alive.

alternativethinker wrote:
once fertilization has occurred what you have is an unborn human life. From the the two, man and woman, one new human life has been made. To commit abortion means to kill that unborn human life. There can be no denying this.


nope. Absolutely correct. That is entirely the point of abortion. Otherwise, you could just scrape it out, put it in a jar, and feed it jellybeans.

alternativethinker wrote:
roe v. Wade is a meaningless court decision in relation to the laws of nature and creation.


r v w is not an issue for me. But as I understand, it had to do with a woman's right to privacy under the us constitution. As such, it doesn't actually have anything to do with biology, except to assert that a fetus is part of a woman's body. So actually, it is pretty meaningful in stating the obvious.

alternativethinker wrote:
abortion is the wanton and needless killing of unborn human life. You can attack christians but that does not change these facts.


hardly wanton and needless. You were doing pretty well on facts up until now. Also, I can't understand why you have suddenly brought christians into it. But thank you for permission to attack them.

alternativethinker wrote:
sex causes pregnancy! Abortion causes death.


sex sometimes causes pregnancy. For women. Unfair, isn't it?

Abortion causes the death of an unwanted z/e/f, but saves far more women's lives than it ends. Interestingly, abortion rarely kills men.

alternativethinker wrote:
you can banter words all you want and it may only assuage your troubled or lingering consciences. To justify abortion is a rationalization to avoid the guilt of killling.


not getting this at all, sorry. Do you have a guilty conscience you are needing to get over? No rationalization involved for me. The ending of an unwanted pregnancy is one of the greatest reliefs imaginable.

alternativethinker wrote:
people cannot redefine the act of "abortion" any more than they can redifine the word "kill". The two words are interchangeable.


kill is a very broad word. I have killed goldfish. I have killed houseplants. Abortion is a bit more accurate: removing an unwanted embryo or fetus from the womb which, incidentally, dies as a result. You wouldn't say you "abort" a houseplant, or a slug -- abort means to terminate prematurely.

alternativethinker wrote:
abortion exists to negate the consequences of irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to cover up ones own indiscretions is their sexual activities.


i'm getting a lot of misogyny out of this. Because men can be as irresponsible as they like, can't they? Men can be as indiscrete as they like. But how dare women have sex because they want to and not just to make babies? I hate to break it to you, but not all women who have abortions are wanton w hores.

alternativethinker wrote:
abortion exists as a means of clearing paths for ones own self in the most blatant example of human selfishness imaginable. Abortion is way of putting ones own right to exsit above that of another. What kind of human being creates a life like itself, to then only kill it?


well, women who don't want to be pregnant, I guess. How selfish is that, to not want to play incubator to a parasite? How selfish is it not to want to bring a handicapped and deformed being into the world? How selfish is it to say, I need to be able to feed the children I already have?
You saying it is wrong and selfish does not make it so.
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replied February 27th, 2006
Especially eHealthy
Thank you, moo :) you covered everything, just as I would have...

I don't really see why this needs to be posted... I mean, did I not just post in a pre-existing topic that yes, abortion killed fetuses but no, that wasn't the whole point?
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replied February 27th, 2006
"i don't really see why this needs to be posted... "

-because the pro-abortion crowd does not get it yet. Abortion is killing.

"the only issue is whether or not a woman has bodily integrity."

-abortion does not kill the womans body, it kills someone elses.

"sex sometimes causes pregnancy. For women. Unfair, isn't it?"

-pregnancy is always caused by sex, unless you are one of the test tube crowd.

"abortion causes the death of an unwanted z/e/f, but saves far more women's lives than it ends. Interestingly, abortion rarely kills men."

-z/e/f ??? What is that anyway? Try saying unborn child, keep saying it until it makes sense! Unborn child, unborn child...

"i'm getting a lot of misogyny out of this. Because men can be as irresponsible as they like, can't they? Men can be as indiscrete as they like. But how dare women have sex because they want to and not just to make babies? I hate to break it to you, but not all women who have abortions are wanton w hores."

-men are just as culpable in abortion. Men are equally responsible for abortion.
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replied February 27th, 2006
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alternativethinker wrote:


-because the pro-abortion crowd does not get it yet. Abortion is killing

i assume you mean pro-choicers and, on that basis, did you actually read the answers? If so, why would you possibly think that pro-choicers don't know that an embryo or fetus dies in the procedure?

I know what abortion does and I know h.O.W it does it so can you please explain what it is that you think I "don't get"?


alternativethinker wrote:
-abortion does not kill the womans body, it kills someone elses.

yes the embryo or fetus dies, the fact that is can only exist within the womans uterus means that it's her choice as to whether this happens. Pregnancy effects her body, it's not all about the fetus.

alternativethinker wrote:
-pregnancy is always caused by sex, unless you are one of the test tube crowd.

but sex doesn't always cause pregnancy. There's a difference.


alternativethinker wrote:
-z/e/f ??? What is that anyway?

zygote/embryo/fetus - the stages of human biology before birth (and before 'baby' !)

alternativethinker wrote:
try saying unborn child, keep saying it until it makes sense! Unborn child, unborn child...

why should we use this emotive language when we can use the correct terms? I could call it an unborn child if you wanted, just to show that I do understand but i'd rather not as it's inncorrect.

Y.O.U try saying z/e/f
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replied February 27th, 2006
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alternativethinker wrote:


-men are just as culpable in abortion. Men are equally responsible for abortion.


but they aren't the ones who get pregnant. So it doesn't matter. It's only women you want to see punished for having sex you don't approve of.
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replied February 27th, 2006
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Altrnative Thinker
You need to learn to think! Sex does not always = pregnancy look at all of those who have tried and tried for years. I suppose you do not refer to those females that are successsfully using b/c an do not fall pregnant ot even the females that have had a hysterectomy oor a male that has been through his surgery, I suppose that you would not say that they are having sex but they are not getting pregnant so where do you get this that sex = pregnancy.
Cars kill z/e/f's, children baby's along with guns and other people so it is not just abortion and who is to say that that z/e/f or baby or child to be would have made it through the pregnany anyway, sometimes things happen for the better, for a reason.
Again, we are not pro-abortion, we are pro-choice as we are ffor a choice for a female to carry and keep thechild through the pregnancy to adopt(with a big question mark), or to abort as it is her choice as we are not walking in her shoes and we do not know what the hell that she is going through. Some people really need to open up and be more understanding and realize that accidents do happen and you could be using all the protection and are being responsible if that person were to fall pregnant then she should haave her choice aand at anytime sh should haave her choice if she feels sshe will be an unfit mother and is not ready as people will have sex.
I would rather see an abortion than an abuse or neglect case anyday, but again, that is my feelings towards the situsation!
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replied February 27th, 2006
"sex does not always = pregnancy"

you cant get a pregnancy without sex though. Read the equation properly would you?

"i would rather see an abortion than an abuse or neglect case anyday, but again, that is my feelings towards the situsation!"

i have known more than one person that had a terrible childhood and became a great person with a lot to offer the world. Would you have abortion erase all forms of unpleasant possibilities in life for a child?

These couples that are trying to have children that no one else wants or cant raise. Oh, thats right, you cant adopt dead children that have been aborted!
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replied February 27th, 2006
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alternativethinker wrote:

you cant get a pregnancy without sex though. Read the equation properly would you?

everyone appears to have read it properly and no-one is denying that pregnancy is the result of sex (unless ivf etc..)



alternativethinker wrote:
these couples that are trying to have children that no one else wants or cant raise. Oh, thats right, you cant adopt dead children that have been aborted!

it's unfortunate that some couples cannot have children but it's not the responsibility of others to continue their pregnancy for this reason. If a woman choses to have her unwanted child adopted then all credit to her. You should realise though that this isn't always an 'attractive' option
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replied February 27th, 2006
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alternativethinker wrote:
"sex does not always = pregnancy"

you cant get a pregnancy without sex though. Read the equation properly would you?


actually, you can. Invitro-fertilization, duh.

Quote:
"i would rather see an abortion than an abuse or neglect case anyday, but again, that is my feelings towards the situsation!"

i have known more than one person that had a terrible childhood and became a great person with a lot to offer the world. Would you have abortion erase all forms of unpleasant possibilities in life for a child?


i'd rather seen an aborted fetus than a raped and murdered child.


Quote:
these couples that are trying to have children that no one else wants or cant raise. Oh, thats right, you cant adopt dead children that have been aborted!


if there are so damn many of them, then why are there so many children in adoption homes with no one wanting them?
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replied February 27th, 2006
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bahahahahahaha123 wrote:
eiri wrote:
if there are so damn many of them, then why are there so many children in adoption homes with no one wanting them?


doesn't matter. There is no right to procreation. Too bad if you can't concieve.


stop being stupid. I was saying that if there are "supposedly" so many couples out there who can't conceive, and who want to adopt children, then why are there still so many unadopted kids out there? There should be a high demands for them, but there isn't. Kids are growing up into adults in adoption centers because no one wants them.

I'm saying that the whole "give up the baby for adoption instead of killing it" thing is total bull, because almost no one wants that kid. I've heard infertile, sick-minded women say "i don't want to adopt because I could never love it because it wouldn't be mine."
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replied February 27th, 2006
Experienced User
Re: Altrnative Thinker
sandyallen wrote:
you need to learn to think! Sex does not always = pregnancy look at all of those who have tried and tried for years. I suppose you do not refer to those females that are successsfully using b/c an do not fall pregnant ot even the females that have had a hysterectomy oor a male that has been through his surgery, I suppose that you would not say that they are having sex but they are not getting pregnant so where do you get this that sex = pregnancy.

Cars kill z/e/f's, children baby's along with guns and other people so it is not just abortion and who is to say that that z/e/f or baby or child to be would have made it through the pregnany anyway, sometimes things happen for the better, for a reason.

Again, we are not pro-abortion, we are pro-choice as we are ffor a choice for a female to carry and keep thechild through the pregnancy to adopt
(with a big question mark), or to abort as it is her choice as we are not walking in her shoes and we do not know what the hell that she is going through. Some people really need to open up and be more understanding and realize that accidents do happen and you could be using all the protection and are being responsible if that person were to fall pregnant then she should haave her choice aand at anytime sh should haave her choice if she feels sshe will be an unfit mother and is not ready as people will have sex.
I would rather see an abortion than an abuse or neglect case anyday, but again, that is my feelings towards the situsation!


i agree. But I want to add: it saddens me to see people constantly saying "it doesn't matter, I know what I would do". I used to say the exact same thing. I was so naive to believe that I would never, could never, even *think* about aborting a pregnancy. No matter how strong you think your convictions are (mine were pretty damn strong) you will *never ever ever ever ever!!!!!* know what you will do if you're put into a really bad situation, no matter what the circumstances of said bad situation. You will never know. I can assure you of that. You won't believe me, but it's the truth. People amaze themselves every day... Nothing makes you any different.
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replied February 27th, 2006
Active User, very eHealthy
Quote:
once fertilization has occurred what you have is an unborn human life.


i won't deny this...But just because something is a life of human nature, it does not mean the "life" is a person. People may be human, but human doesn't always necessarily mean person.

Quote:
abortion is the wanton and needless killing of unborn human life. You can attack christians but that does not change these facts.


abortion is not "needless" to the woman who is well aware of the fact that she is not ready for a child or knows she would make an awful parent. Abortion is not needless - it is needed.

Quote:
sex causes pregnancy!


yes, that is true...But sex is not the only way for a woman to conceive. There is the option of in-vitro fertilization, or women who will get pregnant after their partner touches their genitals with semen on their hands (the typical story you hear from the teenage girls who freak out about being knocked up).

Quote:
abortion exists to negate the consequences of irresponsible sexual behavior. Abortion exists as a lie to cover up ones own indiscretions is their sexual activities. Abortion exists as a means of clearing paths for ones own self in the most blatant example of human selfishness imaginable. Abortion is way of putting ones own right to exsit above that of another. What kind of human being creates a life like itself, to then only kill it?


this had to be the most idiotic part of your post. First of all, how do you know that all abortions occur because of irresponsible sexual habits? You don't think that there are women out there who are responsible enough to utilize contraception? Many women seek abortion as an alternative when their protection fails. Is using protection now deemed "irresponsible"? If so, please elaborate on this matter.

Abortion is, by no means, a selfish act. It is, by far, more humane to terminate the life of an unborn zygote or fetus than to allow it to be born into a world where it will not be wanted or loved. I will assume that you enjoy reading the stories of kids being neglected and abused by their parents who more than likely did not want them, or kids who will grow up in foster homes and get booted out at 18, wondering if anyone loves them.

People play god all the time - whether it's taking cold medicine or having a life-saving surgery. Abortion is a blessing for some women, and I am sick of people putting the life of a potential person that can't see, think, or breathe above the life of the woman who is burdened with a pregnancy that she never wanted. The woman is the one who is breathing and thinking, and is living her life...Not the bloody fetus. The born person should always have more of a reason to exist than a human fetus with the potential of life outside the womb.

I have never heard of a woman getting knocked up intentionally just to get an abortion. From what I know, the procedure can be very painful, both physically and emotionally, and it is not exactly cheap if it's done legally. As much as I hate children, and as sadistic as my mind is, even I would not purposely get myself pregnant just to abort. It's not a pleasing experience.

Quote:
'm saying that the whole "give up the baby for adoption instead of killing it" thing is total bull, because almost no one wants that kid. I've heard infertile, sick-minded women say "i don't want to adopt because I could never love it because it wouldn't be mine."


this is precisely the reason why I find abortion to be both justifiable and humane. Some idiot women think that it's what's in the blood that makes the child theirs, and nothing else. If they would pull their heads far enough out of their arses, they would come to realize that it's the love given to the child by the mother that makes the kid theirs...Not the genes.
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replied February 28th, 2006
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Re: Altrnative Thinker
lsipes wrote:
no matter how strong you think your convictions are (mine were pretty damn strong) you will *never ever ever ever ever!!!!!* know what you will do if you're put into a really bad situation, no matter what the circumstances of said bad situation. .

i totally agree. You can believe you know what you'd do but, unless actually faced with it, you can never know 100%
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replied February 28th, 2006
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bahahahahahaha123 wrote:
eiri wrote:
bahahahahahaha123 wrote:
eiri wrote:
if there are so damn many of them, then why are there so many children in adoption homes with no one wanting them?


doesn't matter. There is no right to procreation. Too bad if you can't concieve.


stop being stupid.


you should take your own advice. It doesn't matter if every unwanted child had a home. It still doesn't give a fundie the right to tell another person they are nothing more than a breeding machine for infertile couples.


i'm not saying it does, idiot. I'm pro-choice too, or did you forget again? Obviously they don't have a right to force women to procreate. And I was trying to bring to light their flawed logic. They think lots of people want these babies but the truth is that almost no one does. So abortion is the better choice, unless the mother herself decides to give it up instead.
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replied February 28th, 2006
Experienced User
If u dont want a kid dont have sex stop beind so damn horny!!!!!

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!
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replied February 28th, 2006
Extremely eHealthy
w0rldd0minat0r wrote:
if u dont want a kid dont have sex stop beind so damn horny!!!!


because it's that simple and everybody wants to practice abstinence :roll:
the fact is that eople are going to have sex, whether or not they want to have children. It's enjoyable/a way to be intimate with someone/fun - there are many reasons to have sex and procreating is only one of them.

You can make it practically impossible to get pregnant through contraception/timing.

Also, not all abortions are carried out because people don't want children.

That was a very onstructive post, carry on!
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replied February 28th, 2006
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I suppose after they get this abortion thing passed to where no one can have an abortion, the next thing is is that the state/ government will be telling us we cannot have sex, thank goodness, I will be dead by that time. Again abortion has been around long before roe vs. Wade and will be around a lot longer after they decide against abortion.
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