so we can kill people in comas then since
they don’t demonstrate personally, and
that goes for anyone asleep.
no, they're people, they've been born.
Do they depend soely on the body of
someone? Nope
Quote:
so location is the factor that deems
someone a person or not? I don’t think
so.
as you mean either inside or out of the
womb then yes, location determines
personhood. A premature baby of 30weeks
gestation is a person. A 30week old fetus
is not.
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 12:15pm
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
a human is a person as many
millions and millions of dictionaries
clearly state; no one has ever proved a
foetus is not a person so it is pointless
claiming it
isn’t.
unfortunately, personhood is a legal term.
Not a dictionary fallacy. If that is
the best you have, you better go back to
church. Little boys are in need of
molesting
today!
then only a human born in the usa is a
person, and that would means those who are
there illegally are not people and we can
kill them.
I don’t think so, try again.
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 12:18pm
jimmyjackers
wrote:
then only a human born in the usa is a
person, and that would means those who are
there illegally are not people and we can
kill them.
I don’t think so, try
again.
erm, what??
I wasn't born in the usa, i'm a person.
It's not only american laws that count you
know, personhood is a legal term here too
you know?!
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 12:26pm
moo
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
then only a human born in the usa is a
person, and that would means those who are
there illegally are not people and we can
kill them.
I don’t think so, try
again.
erm, what??
I wasn't born in the usa, i'm a person.
It's not only american laws that count you
know, personhood is a legal term here too
you know?!
exactly!
Give the man a banana.
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 12:29pm
Whatever you're taking stop it!
Just say no!!!
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 12:35pm
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
then only a human born in
the usa is a person, and that would means
those who are there illegally are not
people and we can kill
them.
you are a retard... In fact, retards
have higher .I.Q's that you.
Personhood, in the .U.S, is defined by
birth. Regardless of your nationality.
Fucking
fundies.
so you don't have to be born in the usa to
be a citizen in the usa?
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12985
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 02-26-06 12:44pm
jimmyjackers
wrote:
eiri
wrote:
actually no it doesn't; at
early stages (definately under 20 weeks)
it's brain isn't even developed enough to
be connected. It doesn't feel pain or
anything else, and it certainly can't
think yet.
there are brain waves as early as 8 weeks.
What has pain got to do with it, there are
adults that feel no pain.
brain waves to not equate thought, the
equate brain activity. Even comatose
people have brain waves. Animals, even
little bugs, have bainwaves! But they
are not sentient.
Pain is a factor because some pro-lifers
believe that it causes the fetus
incredible pain to be torn limb from lumb
or turned to mush during the abortion
process. However, since the part of the
brain responsible for the detection and
processing of pain is not connected to
anything until after the 25th week of
life, a fetus younger than this could be
aborted and feel no pain at all.
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
yes; ever seen one? Some
cry a lot, some don't. They have a lot
of personality for only being a few
minutes old. And I happen to believe
that a 8 month old fetus also counts as a
viable "baby". Check out the old posts
for reasons. Or, go read the pro-choice
forum to see why I don't think young
fetuses are people.
so we can kill people in comas then since
they don’t demonstrate personally, and
that goes for anyone asleep.
again, no, person. I'll not repeat
myself. If you didn't bother to read
about what I said on sleeping people, then
you're too stupid to understand the
concept in the first place. And again,
you already know my opinion on comatose
people. Why are you asking the same
questions?
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
and what kind of emotions do
fetuses inside the womb at 10 weeks show?
the same kind that people who are in comas
show.
liiiike.... What? Drooling is an
emotion now?
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
actually, since the brain
becomes mostly connected atoun 27 weeks, a
new born can. A 7 month old fetus can.
And I happen to believe that abortions
at this stage are wrong unless done for
medical reasons.
the brain doesn’t have to be connected
to the body to function.
explain that one to me.
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
he is born. I'm not going
to explain this concept again; go read old
posts.
so location is the factor that deems
someone a person or not? I don’t
think so.
location as in... Inside the womb versus
outside o it? Yes, "location" is a factor,
but not the only one. You cannot
simplify "personhood" to one factor, it is
far too complicated.
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
actually, sleeping people do
show emotion numb-skull.
really?
eiri
wrote:
ever watched someone sleep?
it’s not my favourite pass time.
then how the hell would you know? People
talk in their sleep, they grimace, they
smile, they toss and turn. Some people
even argue out loud. And just as a
note... Fetuses can't smile beause
newborns can't even smile. Your brain
doesn't develop enough to smile until a
few days to weeks after you're born. Joy
is a complicated emotion. About the only
motion newborns can feel is discomfort,
which is why they cry. Of course, it's
the only emotion that they need, for
survival.
Quote:
eiri
wrote:
and as far as comatose
people go, I know i'd want to be released
from the machines to go wherever it is
that we go after death, if I was in a coma
for more than 6 months. So yeah, in a
way, I support the "killing" of comatose
people. Because I would want to be
"killed".
yes, well that is nice for you, but not
everyone shares your opinion, and most
people would not want to be killed merely
for being asleep or
unconscious.
again, unconsciousness, comas, and sleep
are three different things;
thanks for bringing unconsciousness into
the mix.
Sleep: you lready know the reasons why.
Coma: again, you know the reasons.
Unconsciousness: it's still a person,
they're born, they've had experiences.
They are still capable of breathing on
their own (for the most part). But
unconsciousness is different from sleep.
Different brainwave patterns.
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 13:20pm
eiri
wrote:
brain waves to not equate
thought, the equate brain activity. Even
comatose people have brain waves.
Animals, even little bugs, have bainwaves!
But they are not sentient.
Pain is a factor because some pro-lifers
believe that it causes the fetus
incredible pain to be torn limb from lumb
or turned to mush during the abortion
process. However, since the part of the
brain responsible for the detection and
processing of pain is not connected to
anything until after the 25th week of
life, a fetus younger than this could be
aborted and feel no pain at all.
so what is the difference between a man
who is unconscious for a period of time
and a foetus, both are humans and both are
unconscious both demonstrate no
personality, and the only difference is
their location, hence location is how you
define personhood.
eiri
wrote:
again, no, person. I'll
not repeat myself. If you didn't bother
to read about what I said on sleeping
people, then you're too stupid to
understand the concept in the first place.
And again, you already know my opinion
on comatose people. Why are you asking
the same questions?
so what you are saying is if you had a son
who went in a coma for 9 months, you could
kill him before the 9 months are up, given
your stance on people in comas.
eiri
wrote:
liiiike.... What?
Drooling is an emotion now?
whatever you care to mention.
eiri
wrote:
explain that one to me.
well if I cut your arm off, your brain
will still work won’t it.
eiri
wrote:
location as in... Inside
the womb versus outside o it? Yes,
"location" is a factor, but not the only
one. You cannot simplify "personhood" to
one factor, it is far too complicated.
exactly!
eiri
wrote:
then how the hell would you
know? People talk in their sleep, they
grimace, they smile, they toss and turn.
Some people even argue out loud. And
just as a note... Fetuses can't smile
beause newborns can't even smile. Your
brain doesn't develop enough to smile
until a few days to weeks after you're
born. Joy is a complicated emotion.
About the only motion newborns can feel is
discomfort, which is why they cry. Of
course, it's the only emotion that they
need, for survival.
so the fact that a person is unconscious
is not a reason to deprive them of
personhood is it?
eiri
wrote:
again, unconsciousness,
comas, and sleep are three different
things; thanks for bringing
unconsciousness into the mix.
yes, and none of them determine whether
someone is a person or not.
eiri
wrote:
sleep: you lready know the
reasons why.
Coma: again, you know the reasons.
Unconsciousness: it's still a person,
they're born, they've had experiences.
They are still capable of breathing on
their own (for the most part). But
unconsciousness is different from sleep.
Different brainwave patterns.
so here we are again, being born is the
critical factor isn’t it?
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 13:27pm
jimmyjackers
wrote:
so here we are again, being born is the
critical factor isn’t
it?
yes
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 13:32pm
moo
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
so here we are again, being born is the
critical factor isn’t
it?
yes
what is to be "born"?
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 13:36pm
jimmyjackers
wrote:
what is to be
"born"?
to begin to exist independantly when
coming outside of your mothers body (and
no, I don't believe an aborted fetus is
'born' so therefore a person along the sam
lines of when a woman miscarries that
embryo/fetus is not 'born' as it ceases to
exist)
|
lsipes
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 325
Posted: 02-26-06 14:54pm
It's like beating your head against a
incredibly brick wall, ladies and gents.
|
lsipes
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 325
Posted: 02-26-06 17:18pm
Lol baha!!
Okay. I seriously got a good laugh out
of this one:
first off. His original statement was
that the brain doesn't have to be attached
to the body to function. When asked to
explain how that's possible, this is his
remark:
Quote:
well if I cut
your arm off, your brain will still work
won’t it.
it makes absolutely no sense!! He
obviously has no sense of reason, is
completely incapable of backing up his
statements and beliefs, and definitely
doesn't possess the ability to even for a
second form a truly intellectual thought.
It saddens me to think that i'm not as
active in the debate because I can't stand
reading his simply idiotic retorts.
Sigh.
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 18:27pm
moo
wrote:
to exist independantly when
coming outside of your mothers
body
so, is a newborn attached to his mother is
still not a person until the umbilical
cord is cut?
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 18:37pm
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
moo
wrote:
to exist independantly when
coming outside of your mothers
body
so, is a newborn attached to his mother is
still not a person until the umbilical
cord is cut?
there is no "person" until the lung fill
with air. And that is according to
genesis too.
so, a newborn is not a person until it is
able to breathe?
Then, you agree with abortion even after
birth!
|
sandyallen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4580
Posted: 02-26-06 18:38pm
Hey people, how and why do you still keep
wasting your time with this jimmy jackers,
I think we need to pull the plug on him(?)
or get him back to that mental facility he
ran away from and I have worked in those
places before and noone was that nuckin
futs.
Good luck!
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 18:44pm
bahahahahahaha123
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
so, a newborn is not a
person until it is able to
breathe?
correct.
jimmyjackers
wrote:
then, you agree with
abortion even after
birth!
and I said that... Where? Oh, yeah.
I didn't. You just are doing that
stuff again... Trying to think.
Don't do it. It hurts our
nation.
well it is common knowledge that newborns
don’t breathe immediately after birth,
so in those minutes prior to breathing you
would agree with abortion.
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 18:51pm
jimmyjackers
wrote:
moo
wrote:
to exist independantly when
coming outside of your mothers
body
so, is a newborn attached to his mother is
still not a person until the umbilical
cord is cut?
where did I mention not being attached?
You really should stop assuming things and
actually read what's written in front of
you (and not be so selective about what
you respond to also).
You're either taking the piss or extremely
stupid - i'm not sure which to be honest.
All of this about personhood as been
explained countless times, why not chose a
new line of debate?
|
jimmyjackers
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 270
Posted: 02-26-06 18:58pm
moo
wrote:
jimmyjackers
wrote:
moo
wrote:
to exist independantly when
coming outside of your mothers
body
so, is a newborn attached to his mother is
still not a person until the umbilical
cord is cut?
where did I mention not being attached?
You really should stop assuming things and
actually read what's written in front of
you (and not be so selective about what
you respond to also).
You're either taking the piss or extremely
stupid - i'm not sure which to be honest.
All of this about personhood as been
explained countless times, why not chose a
new line of
debate?
i’m not assuming anything; i’m just
asking you a question.
|
Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
Thanks: 21
Thanked:111
Posted: 02-26-06 19:02pm
You clearly assumed that attachment had
something to do with it. A fetus is a
baby/person when born. What exactly is
difficult to understand about that?
