if you can somehow explain to me how me saying that a car does not feel pain and a woman's body does is idiodic, i'd like to know. I mean, maybe you just don't understand that a woman's body is far more sacred than a replaceable car... But maybe you don't. Either way, insulting me is a logical fallacy. Please refrain from such things; I am attempting to.



as always, I think development is one of the main issues here.



did you not read my whole section on life support? Go read it; I won't repeat myself.



logical fallacy again for the insult, though you are right, I had not thought of the vehicles the local mennonites drive. Most modern people don't which is why it didn't immediately occur to me as a common usage of the word “drive”. Forgive me, i'm not a “country girl”.



are you re-typing what I wrote? Because I don't recall making all of these typos in my original post. Anyway... I still don't see the point of debating what the words drive and abort mean. People drive vehicles of all kinds. Mothers abort babies; as I see it, that is the only definition of abortion needed for this debate.



i feel it is important to ascertain at the beginning of a debate what words mean, though it should not be necessary for words such as “drive”; but in the case of “abortion” it is important. That way, none of the debaters is misled, misunderstood, or misconstrues other's arguments.



so you purposely misled me to what point? Has that achieved anything except that we now have another vehicle on the list of things we drive, which as nothing to do with abortion or the debate at hand?



how so? If you think i'm being obtuse, it is simply because I want to understand what it is you're trying to get at. Stop leading me around and spit it out already. And if you already have, then apparently it was not stated clearly enough.



and what question was that? Apparently I didn't understand it; so please restate it.



well you never told me that, so I had no way of knowing if he was an amputee or genetically deformed. Next time, be clear. I do not like being led on. It does not benefit either side to do so.



growth potential and previous potential are two different things in my mind. A fetus, in it's past, could not breath on his own. A comatose person could, before they became comatose. And the man with the deformed leg can still do more than a fetus ever could. I'm sorry for your friend; I hope he had a good home growing up, and didn't have to live with the mother or father who didn't want him.



if you'll remember, I said she would only be able to do that in the case where the doctor impregnated the a-womb without the mother and father's permission; the mother and father who changed their mind should not be able to kill that child, because they chose to give it life.



they always have, in my opinion.



no, because i'm not a family member or spouse.



yes. I would attempt to save you, the fetus, first and foremost; but if that was impossible then I would abort. You see, as a mother I have the potential to give birth to many children. I don't see the sense in dying on my first try; or, abandoning my children just to bring another one into this world.



so... It's okay to kill old people? They've lived longer than me.



now I really think you're misquoting me. I recall typing “you cannot abort a born person”. If I somehow made the mistake of typing kill then forgive me, I meant “abort”. But i'm pretty sure I didn't. I think you changed it.



obviously there are. But I do not think aborting is the same thing as killing. Abort is a word applied only to the termination of pregnancies. I feel that this is how it should be used for this debate. Why do we need to use abort as such a broad term? If we did so, then people would use it in every day speech as such: “two drunk drivers were aborted last night in a crash”, and we don't. We say kill.



i agree; which is what I said... He is born, and thus has a right to life. As long as he doesn't do anything illegal.



just my opinion.



now I know you're misquoting me; my spelling is never that atrocious.



we do both agree on that issue it seems... Though above you said you'd rather die than abort your child. That is your personal opinion; but you believe it is a woman's choice if she is in that situation?



but according to that, you deserve death too. I am a very nice person, but I have no tolerance for excessive laziness. I'm pretty lazy; but I still go to work and school and earn my money.



actually, it just goes back to the way it was before welfare was instated, which happened earlier in the 20th century. A lot of social programs started then, during and after the great depression.



not likely, since we still need someone to pump our septic tanks and haul our trash; and they make a whole lot of money doing that. Then again, they're actually working.



oh please, don't even go there. It's not the same, and you know it.



more valuable yes.



you do realize that euthanasia has nothing to do with the younger people being better than old people? It has to do with old people being in incredible pain and discomfort and just wanting to end it all. That's what it's about. My great grandmother starved herself to death when I was a child because she couldn't get herself euthanized.



yawn. I'm going to ignore all religious references, especially if you go on to tell me that I should realize that your god is the true one and that jesus will save me or something.



whoops, there you did it. Oh well.

"if you can somehow explain to me how me saying that a car does not feel pain and a woman's body does is idiodic, i'd like to know."

its not what your saying its what you dont understand that makes you "dumb"

"i mean, maybe you just don't understand that a woman's body is far more sacred than a replaceable car"

i do understand that, but that was never what I was getting at.





"i think development is one of the main issues here"

yes of course, a 5 year old who is not as developed as a 25 year old is not "worth" as much.





"did you not read my whole section on life support? Go read it"

ah you would not give assistance to a child who needed it.





"most modern people don't"

ah so "modern people" dont drive horses.... These people who do are "unmodern" or "uncivilized"

"forgive me, i'm not a “country girl”.

Well I am a country boy... Does that make me "uncivilized" and "unmodern" what you wrote seems to suggest so.





"are you re-typing what I wrote?"

no copy and pasting

"mothers abort babies"

and you see that as a moral right.. Sick!





"as I see it, that is the only definition of abortion needed for this debate."

but you see from our pov we are trying to show how abortion is the ending of a human life..We do not differentiate between the worthiness of a fetus or a lazy bum... Both are unique individuals in need of protection by society.






" feel it is important to ascertain at the beginning of a debate what words mean"

i guess we should all study the dictionary and have masters in english then!





"so you purposely misled me to what point?"

to show you that you are easily mislead.






"has that achieved anything except that we now have another vehicle on the list of things we drive, which as nothing to do with abortion or the debate at hand? "

yes, now you know you dont have the inteligence to know the difference between direct information to a specific point of understanding and indirect information to a specific point of understanding... At least with this knowledge you may (if your honest enough) question your beliefs.





"how so?"

if one does not understand the use of words in a context outside of the issue but relevent to the issue how can we make use of our words in our arguments at all.





"stop leading me around and spit it out already. And if you already have, then apparently it was not stated clearly enough."

the car did not represent the body, but the "car accident" represented the effect on the body just as the illness represented the effect on the body, both are unpridictable.. The use of a 2 yr old child represents the unborn child, a unique and livng human being, who may or may not cause adverse effects towards our lives.





"what question was that? Apparently I didn't understand it; so please restate it"

i did.... Can you tell me why its our duty to protect born children and our duty to allow mothers and doctors to kill unborn children?

"well you never told me that, so I had no way of knowing if he was an amputee or genetically deformed. Next time, be clear. I do not like being led on."

i didnt know he was until you started making assumptions about people.. Just told you so you knew your assumptions that lead to opinions can be wrong.





"growth potential and previous potential are two different things in my mind. "

why.. Both are at that moment "uncapable" but will be capable given the opportunity... Whats the difference?






"a fetus, in it's past, could not breath on his own. "

and a 45 year old man in his past couldnt breath on his own, since he was a human being at the fetus stage.





"a comatose person could, before they became comatose."

depends how far back...Like I say they couldnt before they were so many weeks old... Anyway what does the ability to breath make to the moral question of wether someone deserves the right to life or not?





"the man with the deformed leg can still do more than a fetus ever could. "

and more than a 1 week old baby ever could... Do we allow 1 week old babies to be killed?





"i'm sorry for your friend; I hope he had a good home growing up, and didn't have to live with the mother or father who didn't want him."

he is not real he is a fictional charicter who I can use and manipulate to serve my argument... He dosnt exist, heis fictional.





"and didn't have to live with the mother or father who didn't want him. "

better off that he died eh? Not much of "quality" of life there eh?





Well my fictional friend disagrees.





"if you'll remember, I said she would only be able to do that in the case where the doctor impregnated the a-womb without the mother and father's permission"

just as if the sperm fertalised the egg without your permission, fact is its not the life of the child or the freedom of the mother your fighting for its the right to kill childern, in unwanted pregnancies or in incubating machines... No matter.. You want to have the right to kill children you dont want!





"they always have, in my opinion."

no comment, just let people with sane minds acknowledge this!





"no, because i'm not a family member or spouse. "

i wouldnt want my family member or my spouse to kill me... Should they be allowed to do so.. Why, what gives them express rights over my life (in whatever state) over my own express wishes

"yes. I would "

you would go against my express wishes and kill me, I am afraid this maybe the future for other peple you and others like you deem undersirable... If we dont work together to stop people like you.






"as a mother I have the potential to give birth to many children. "

as a female child I have the potential to give birth to many children

as a male child I have the potential to father many children.





But I suppose "growth potential and previous potential are two different things in" your "mind."

"so... It's okay to kill old people? They've lived longer than me. "

so its okay to kill young people who havent lived as log as me?





"“you cannot abort a born person”

of course you can, you can abort them with poison, or a knife or a scalpal or a with a big suction tube or with excessive salt or by denying them a place on the earth (natural environment) etc

"i meant “abort”. But i'm pretty sure I didn't. I think you changed it. "

i didnt, copy and paste

"i do not think aborting is the same thing as killing."

so if I aborted the life of george bush.. It wouldnt be the same as killing?





"abort is a word applied only to the termination of pregnancies."

the word "abort" is applied to many things including the life of the human being inside the womb, infact abort in its proper terms in the issue of abortion refers to the ending of a human beings life in the womb, termination in the abortion instance usulally ( in medical terms) refers expilicitly to the ending of the pregnant state of a woman, to "terminate the pregnancy" is to incude the "abortion" or "ending of the human beings life within the womb... Still agree with abortion or are you a "termination" kind of woman now?





"why do we need to use abort as such a broad term?"

because language is important in understanding what it means.





So abort mean to end premetually, before fullfilment

that can be applied to a lot of things, but in the isse of abortion it is usualy refered to the medical ending of the development of the human being with in the womb.





"to cease growth before full development or maturation"


"to interfere with the development of; conclude prematurely"

"to stop the progress of "

"to bring forth premature or stillborn offspring "

of course a couple of these things can be in reference to many things, pregancy, unborn children (both in issue of abortion depending on persons stand) or in the end of a business take or such like.. But abort in the issue of abortion does not mean soley the ending of a pregnancy, it usually means the bringing forth of premature or stillborn offspring out of choice.





"“two drunk drivers were aborted last night in a crash”,

two drivers lives were tragically aborted last night in a crash,,, does this not make sense.. If I used this, I would be understood,, our regualr use of words is normally linked to our ideas towards words and our ideas towards the world around us.. For example

a woman would "kill" a 2 year old child but she would "abort" a unborn fetus..





A gentelman would smoke a ciggerette a hoodlum may give others cancer

a gentleman may partake in the sampling of fine ale, where a thug may proceede to drink excessive alcohol.





It depends on your ones idea of words and ones idea of the world arround them... Both can be expessed in certain ways to bring others to a understanding the the person using the words desire.... The getnelman talking of another may wish to express the thginess of this man drinking alcohol by saying he was drinking excessive alcohol, while stating he is only partaking in the sampling of fine ales as a way of justifing or playing down his own excessive drinking.. Whle pro choice wish to concentrate on the termination of a pregnancy when promoting abortion to others, pro life prefer to concentrait on the ending of a human beings life... Only natural we want people to be on ourside.. But we arnt affraid of the truth.. If fact most inteligent people can see christians love the truth because the truth is jesus christ....But we dont mind concentraiting our efforts on the endding of a human beings life..Because we respect peoples inteigence to know that both are the same thing or at least the procedure causes both effects... We concetrait on the humanity of the human being, we do not fear that people will have the intelect to know this because we are for the truth we are for jesus...While pro choice plays on people lack of inteligence (as I see in you) or peoples desire to concentrait on another aspect of the truth, for whatever reason, actuall abortion, money or just plain boardom.... Of course there are many just like you!






"as long as he doesn't do anything illegal. "

why ilegal, does the government have right to kill people for disobaying the law... Now you can not diffeientiate.... Does action against legality constitute death or is it the crime against moral standards...





Does going 2 miles of an hour over the speed limit intentionally or not deserve death?





Does intentionally killing a 4 year old little girl constitute death?





What out rages you more, the crime against law or the crime against morlity?






Morality isnt it... So lets not beat about the bush we are not talking of a crime against law, we are talking of a crime against morality, in praticular a crime against humanity... Unless your compleatly thick, you know it and I know it....






Does unitentionally being concieved constitute death?






"you do realize that euthanasia has nothing to do with the younger people being better than old people? It has to do with old people being in incredible pain and discomfort and just wanting to end it all."

same argument... Either you are thick or you know it as well as I do!






Check this link out and see where it states " under the consent of the individual"..... It dosnt!







now you tell me, euthinasia means "under the consent of the individual" and I will say your wrong.





Abort a pregancy may mean abort a pregnancy ( which is understandable for the mothers lifes sake) but it is still (killing a human being which is immorral)

now euthinasia maybe getting promoted as a means of mercy killing (playing on the idea that mercy comes in the form of the individuals concent) but as we see from aborting a pregnancy (due to mothers life) to killing unborn children (for any reason)

we know that we will get "mercy killing" in the form of anothers percieved idea of mercy, and one could easily see how this could be used, should we decide on a adolf hittler type leader... Of course no one can see how we are being primed to accept it.. No one thinks that because people now dont believe in killing people without their express wishes, allow laws that wouldeat away at the sacredness of life and their rights could and may eventually constitute a future where a certain group could impliment its own idea of mercy... But we dont care right?





Well I do!





You see, people say I care only about the fetus... Its so wrong

i am aginst abortion and euthiasia, because I care about the future of humanity...Thats every single human being after me... Not the future of society, but the future of the individual.. Thats the future, I see... Thats the way forward.. I dnt want the people of the future to suffer terrible things... And that more than anything is what brought me to christianity...You see thats what people dont seem to grasp with christianity they think is only about believing in jesus as the son of god but its not... "i am the saviour of the world" .. Big claim... Look into it!






You see some would say I am a christian because it supports my concerns for the world... But you see, I look at jesus and his word and I can see it is the real truth...

People can only see themselves, they see christianity as a oppresion of their freedom.(freedom from pregancy?)..Freedom from god... But anyone can see this "freedom" means becoming slaves to somthing darker.... Evil... Manifest in human beings... The killing of unborn human being, the "mercy killing" of born human beings.... See the truth..... See the reality....See the way - jesus christ, son of god....Faith... Dosnt matter how you get their, so long as you get their!..... The bible, read it, and...Think

"blessed are you who thirst and hunger for what is right, you shall be filled... If you look,and think.... Yours is the kingdom of heaven .....Praise be to god for giving me his grace and hopefully through that, salvation.

By the way just out of curiosity is it "modern" people who have abortions?





"modern"

is mercy killing modern?





Me... I always liked christmas...I prefer traditional

what is it that I don't understand? I am presenting all of my facts and opinions to you without trying to mislead you, or make you look stupid, or evil. I am presenting them objectively. So please, out of respect for the debate, respond to me with like respect.




then what is it that you're getting at? Stop beating around the bush.



actually as you may have noticed in my previous post, I stated that I view born children as far more important than adults. It seems to me that you are forgetting every point I make just in order to make an inaccurate statement on my beliefs.



yes, I would. I specifically stated it. I'd like other people to get in on this, and please quote me; I feel arrogant quoting myself and quite frankly, I shouldn't have to.




no, you “ride” a horse, you do not “drive” it. Of course, this ends up in the same argument along with “drive” and “abort”, an argument which I still feel is pointless. It's also nice how you're taking my words out of context, whereas I preserve your original, unadulterated text for all to see.




no, but it gives you even less right to tell me whether or not to have an abortion, because you're male. My parents live in a single wide, there are cows in our backyard. I've lived in the country, but that doesn't make me “country folk”.




i highly doubt it.




yes I see it as right. I'm allowed to, thank goodness. And you're allowed to think it's wrong; but you do not have the right to force that belief on any woman, espcially being a man.




that would be an excellent start.



i think it just shows that your arguments aren't good enough to stand on their own, so you have to try an make them seem more important by misleading me until you dramatically reveal the answer. That's what I think, anyway, and I may be wrong. But I just give the answers, right up front. The sooner you know what i'm talking about, the sooner you can give a rebuttal, instead of feeling indefensible for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Waiting around for you to get to the point gets boring.




you expect me to question my beliefs on abortion because you showed me how the word drive applies to horse-and-buggies as well as motorized vehicles? I... That makes so little sense to me that I won't even try. Maybe it makes sense to you, but...




do you use the word “abort” to refer to the death of a born person? No, most likely you don't. Normal people don't. Abortion, for people inside and outside of the abortion debate, means the killing of an unborn child. There are many words with primary meanings that people almost never use in reference to their secondary meanings. Like “intercourse” for example. It means, to most people, to have sex. However, it also means “to discuss” or “to have a conversation with (someone)”. But people almost never use it to mean that. If you say “we intercoursed all night long” people will immediately think you mean sex.




well, it is true that both car crashes and illnesses are sometimes accidental... And so too are pregnancies. You fix cars, you cure illnesses... And women get abortions to deal with accidental pregnancies. A two year old is not the same as an unborn child in my opinion, thus it cannot represent an unwanted fetus. A wanted fetus, it can represent to an extent. However, as I said, if my two year old was somehow going to cause my death, but I could save him, I would do so. But I would not sacrifice myself for my fetus, especially if there was no way for both of us to survive.




because they are born; they are wanted, they are the next generation. That is why we should protect children. It isn't your duty, but I seriously feel that I myself should do so. And I feel that it is just as important to allow mothers to end unwanted pregnancies so that they may someday properly care for their wanted children.




you are the one who said he was a genetic deformity, and that his friend was a failed abortion. When I give examples, I am the one who dictates what they are, and I try to keep them as simple as possible. A bum. I had to further define that for you because you needed me to, and I explained that I meant a person who is a total waste on society. You however didn't “know” that the peg-leg man was born that way until I “assumed” things about him? Does this mean that you made up his deformity just to try and disprove me? So your idea about what you meant changed once you saw that your plan wasn't working? I had my definition of bum set from the beginning, and I didn't change it just to attack you better.




had to read that a couple of times, but I think I get it now... “will be capable” is the important part of that, because that is only the future. A fetus and a comatose person “will” be able to breath on their own etc (we are assuming the coma patient survives for this mini-scenario). However, previously, the coma patient was also able to breath on his own. The fetus was not. I feel like i'm repeating myself... But at least i'm not changing my meanings; i'm just clarifying them.




but he is born. And I mean since birth, obviously. Sorry I didn't specify that, I didn't mean to lead you on to the wrong conclusion, if I did.




it's not just breathing, and I have said that before. It is the whole package.




no, as I have said before (twice in this post alone), because they are born. Do you not read what I type? I'm really beginning to believe that you don't.




i wrote about the peg-leg and bum issue earlier. Go read it. The bum is not “manipulated” and changed after the fact just to serve my purpose. I was thinking of the most basic, up front definition of a bum, and figured that it would suffice. You cannot just be satisfied with a man with a peg leg; you have to manipulate it to make you (in my opinion) weak argument seem strong; and I once again refuted it.




no, better off he was adopted, since he survived. I do value survival, you see. Since you like making up fictional stories, at what week in the pregnancy was your fictional friend badly aborted? And can fetuses even survive something like that?




quite frankly I don't give a flying fuck about your fictional friend. Why? Because he is fictional, and doesn't contribute anything to the debate. Sorry for the swearing. I have an incredible amount of patience, but occasionally it wears thin.




i view the a-womb and accidental modern pregnancies exactly the same. I most certainly do want, and do have, that right. But once again, only if they're unborn and non-viable. Killing born children of any age, or viable fetuses is bad in my opinion, unless the mother's life is at considerable risk.




because the first half of my quote is missing there, even I have no idea what you're taking about. And i'm the one who wrote it.




because they love you, and they don't want to see you suffering in a vegetative state, wasting away for twenty years. That might cause them severe emotional pain, have you ever thought of that? Not to mention financial strain.




if you were an unwanted fetus, yes i'd still kill you, especially if your existence was possibly going to kill me.



you know they are. I agree, female and male children do have those potentials. But they are born and they are wanted. Oh, did you mean male and female fetuses? Because I don't care about them.




by meaning born children, no it's not, as i've said many times. But meaning fetuses, yes it is fine. However, you didn;t answer my question, you just countered it with your own. Which I answered. So answer mine.




that is not the full paragraph I typed; and it makes no sense the way you have “copy-pasted” it. I am getting very tired of you trying to make me look like an fool by taking my statements out of context.



i should re-phrase that. I do not view abortion as the same thing as murder, which is the word I use when born-people are killed. “kill” works in reference to the ending of any life at all; animal, fetus, child, adult. That is why we have specific words for specific situations.




i'm pro-choice. And your paragraph supports what I said. It refers to the “termination” aka the “ending” of a pregnancy.



see above. We have specific words for specific things for a reason.




yes... Which is how I use it. Maybe your point is coming up in the next section. I'll wait and see if I can find it.




okay. Still not seeing the point... And so far, you're still agreeing with me.




but I thought abort was interchangeable with kill! And if it does mean to “end prematurely, before fulfillment” then technically the drivers were aborted, since they never reached their destination! And you're the one who says that you can abort born people with guns etc. You posted that, remember?




i concur.




no, they're both polluting my air and i'd shove the cigarettes down both of their throats.




ah but there is a difference in the amount consumed in that case; tasting ale is a “sipping” process and the most those people ever achieve is a buzz. A “hooligan” who gets plastered drinks copious amounts of alcohol to do so. Those situations are not the same in my observation.




if either of them are excessively drinking then they're both alcoholics and I for one would refer to them as such. But I think I may finally be seeing the point you're trying desperately to make. Let's see if you pull it off.




uh oh, here it comes... I still think that jesus wants his religion back.




only “intelligent” christian people. The rest of us are “uneducated heathens”.



how depressing... I thought jesus was about love and peace, and rebirth and forgiveness and that sort of thing.



that's about the third way you've attempted to spell intelligence, just to let you know.




abortion causes the death of a fetus. Everyone knows that, so because they know that, you feel that it is the right thing to focus your attacks upon?




we focus on the inhumanity of the fetus.




*yawn*



pardon? But I happen to know that you know that abortion causes death... But it seems so often that pro-life people are not scientifically minded people, and also being so into religion, the pro-choicers often feel that you people don't have our [i[own[/i] opinions about things; and that you are just using the “collective mind” of christianity as your final backing for everything you say, instead of really truly looking at all sides of the issue. No matter how intelligent you may actually be, you people always seem to come off as very ignorant to us, because you don't seem to have your own morality, and you don't make decisions for yourself; jesus always tells you what to do. You don't depend on your own experiences and your own learnings in life, just jesus'. And I was raised that way, and it wasn't enough for me. I had to know real things. The small world of christian doctrine wasn't enough for me.




oh man. Once again, context!! The readers must be so very confused. I know I am. This was the bum again, right? As long as the bum didn't do anything illegal, I felt he had the right to live. Of course the government has the right to imprison people, and, if their crimes are heinous enough, I support the death penalty. Most criminals do not reform, it's a fact. Especially pedophiles, which is why they have to register.




nope, because it's not that serious. Cops don't even pull over for 5 miles over the limit, because changes in road surface can cause that slight difference. It is not a serious problem, 2 miles over. Now if you are being a very irresponsible driver and going 20 miles over the limit, then obviously you should be ticketed.




yes.




killing a four year old is against the law. Most laws are created because they are meant to prevent crimes against morality; committing things that are crimes are normally things that are morally wrong; like stealing. Not all deserve death. Driving recklessly over the speed limit is also morally wrong because you endanger yourself and other drivers.




both, as you just saw.




as I said... Read above. So... It comes down tot he fact that I don't think it's morally wrong ti kill a fetus, thus I don't think it should be illegal.




moral crimes are only committable by born people... It's not the fetus's fault, but it's life is not worth the life of the mother; and it's a little like legal killing during times of war. I don't want to make that example because the fetus is defenseless and an abortion is nothing like a war, but it's the closest thing I can think of at the moment. The mother has the right to decide what her body is doing. You got me on that one for a few moments. But it is still mother over fetus.




i'm once again confused.




it doesn't but it should. Just my opinion.




i don't believe that the fetus is fully human though, which is why I don't think it's immoral.




what the fuck? How the hell does that relate? Now i'm offended. I'd have rather known my great grandmother had gone in peace than see her waste away for weeks. That, in my opinion, is sick.




you... I give up. You're the same people who freak out about gay marriage and make the retarded statements like “if we allow gay marriage, next you know people will want legal bestiality!”. That is utterly ridiculous.




and the sanctity of marriage!! Oh boo hoo!




i'm just shaking my head at the ridiculousness of that statement. It is things like that which bring on the salem witch hunts, the mccarthy trials, and the cold war. Paranoia. A nation under fear. Disgusting.




humanity survived centuries with abortion being legal, i'm sure it'll be just fine.




of course it did. Christianity is a perfect religion for terrified people.




i did, all of my youth. I got over it though.




it supoports your terrified state of mind that doesn't see the light of the modern world.




in your contradictory bible and your mean, mean god.



suppression of our natural sexuality and thinking processes.




this is the parts about you christians that I hate. Your mumbo-jumbo, your lies, your oppression and fear-mongering. Your stories to righten little children. It is taking an awful lot of self control not to... Dammit, call you all sorts of names, most of them along the lines of ignorant and stupid. Why is it that I was unhappy with my beliefs as a christian, who went to church camps and festivals etc... But then once I renounced that faith and found my own, I was suddenly so happy and content, and could once again talk to god and not feel like I was faking it?




people all over the world, first and third world countries, have abortions.




definately not.




that has to do with mercy killings... How?

First of all, I would like to say thank you for your response. I have a few questions and a few statements

"i stated that I view born children as far more important than adults."

what would you say it is about born children that makes them "far more important" than adults





why shouldnt your view about born chiildren be advanced towards unborn childern?

"it gives you even less right to tell me whether or not to have an abortion,"

i am not telling you that you cant have an abortion.. I am telling you it is wrong to have an abortion.

"you do not have the right to force that belief on any woman espcially being a man."

but why do pro choicers have the rightto force their beiefs on a whole nation?.... Especially being a woman.


"do you use the word “abort” to refer to the death of a born person? "

you can if their death is premeture or brought about by unnatural means.

"well, it is true that both car crashes and illnesses are sometimes accidental... And so too are pregnancies. You fix cars, you cure illnesses... And women get abortions to deal with accidental pregnancies."

you fix cars... Can you forget about the damn car... The car is not important... Its the fact that the two year old caused the car crash, that injured you... You wouldnt kill that child even if you knew she would cause the accident...So.... Why do we kill kids who cause accidental adverse effects to pregnant women?

"because they are born; they are wanted, they are the next generation. That is why we should protect children."

its not that they are vunrable and unable to protect themselves... Its because they are born... That dosnt even make sense in my mind!

Its not that they are fellow human beings, with their own diginity and identity... Its because they are wanted... Thats a very meterialistic way of looking at children.. As if they are your property.

"it isn't your duty"

i believe it is the duty of everyone in socety to care for the needy, the vunrable and those who cant look after themseleves, I believe it is of most importance that all people respect a fellow human beings dignity and self identitiy.... Because they are a fellow human being.

"i get it now... “will be capable” is the important part of that, because that is only the future. "

so the future dosnt matter... I will be capable of curing aids in the future... But because I am at this moment a fetus... It dosnt matter... You can kill me.


Because I cant breath at this moment... Its ok to kill me?

"previously, the coma patient was also able to breath on his own. The fetus was not."

what does previously have to do with now, or the future?

"but he is born"

what is it about birth that makes someone "worthy"

"it is the whole package."

kind of like a package holiday... What do you mean.... The whole package!

"because they are born."

what is so special about the brithing process, how does it change the human beings value status?

"killing born children of any age, or viable fetuses is bad in my opinion"

ah, sorry I didnt realise you were against abortion after 22 weeks, my appologies.... Anyway what is it about a persons capablities to survive outside the womb that brings "value" to the unborn child?

Is it simply the ability to survive?

"because they love you, and they don't want to see you suffering in a vegetative state, wasting away for twenty years. That might cause them severe emotional pain, have you ever thought of that? Not to mention financial strain. "

so their emotional pain gives them the right to kill me against my express wishes?

That is exactly what euthinasia is.... And it scares the hell out of me to grow old in a world where my express wishes are rejected because I have lost the ability to defend my rights.


"oh, did you mean male and female fetuses? Because I don't care about them. "

"i dont care about them".... So its ok to kill them

black people "i dont care about them" so its ok to kill them

jewish people "i dont care about them" so its ok to kill them

you dont care, that is the top and bottom of it, you dont care if they are living human beings, you dont care if they live or die, so long as the mother has the right to decide for them.

"meaning born children, no it's not, as i've said many times. But meaning fetuses, yes it is fine."

because you dont care.

Why dont you care why do you care about a specific section of human beings but couldnt give a toss about another specific section of human beings.


Is it their worth to you, that makes you care about them... For example a born human being can help you with learning a different language, where a unborn human being can not, does the human beings ability or capabilities to improve your life give them worth to you, therefore if they are worth something to you, they should be granted the right to life?


You see if it is, then, its no wonder your pro choice, your whole concept of life and the world around you, is geared towards what the world can do for you... I am not saying your bad for thinking that way, a lot of people are looking to get what they can, that is the kind of world where we are heading and to a point live in now.

President kennedy said, dont ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country... If we dont care about our country we arnt going to ask what we can do for it and we arnt going to defed it

but if we care about our country just because of what is does for us... Then we will defend it.

So if only view a human beings worth and value according to our opinions about their capabilities, to make us happy or sad... Then of course, abortion would mean, if pregnancy or having a child would have an adverse effect on our happiness... We would deem abortion to be fine... It makes sense and if that is your out look on life... Should I knock you for it... No.

But you see as pro lifers we tend to view a human beings worth and value on the fact they are human beings... I do not believe the government has the right to kill me because I am a human being, and the right to life has been granted to us by a power higher than human beings.

I believe a human beings worth is accorded them by god, that he wants them and I as a human being must protect other vunrable human beings.

By protecting the unborn child I am protecting the worth of myself, the worth of all humanity.. So from our world view the protection of human life is more important than the protection of personal happiness.

A pro lifer or a christian who was unhappy at being pregnant would not seek an abortion, because they would believe as a fellow human being, that unborn child has as much right to life as they have.

So when we see others getting abortion we see it as homicide because we do care about all human beings, not just a certain section of human beings.

"but I thought abort was interchangeable with kill! And if it does mean to “end prematurely, before fulfillment” then technically the drivers were aborted, since they never reached their destination!"

"you're the one who says that you can abort born people with guns etc. You posted that, remember? "

the reason the drivers were aborted was not because they failed to reach their destination, but that their lives failed to reach its natural conclusion, its natural fulfilment, their life was ended premetually...They were killed in a car crath but their lives were aborted (cut short, brought to an end) by a means outside of natural death.

"from conception to natural death"

death by any means outside of natural death from the moment of conception to natural death is an abortion of human life, sometimes it is accidental as in a car crash, sometimes it is
puropseful as in the shooting of john f kennedy or in the act of the medical procedure known as abortion, just as if george bush was shot we deem the intentional killing of any human being as homicide.

Accidents will happen, natural death will happen, we can not make effective laws against accidents or natural death... But we can make effective laws against the intentional killing of human beings.

"no, they're both polluting my air and i'd shove the cigarettes down both of their throats. "

against freedom of choice..To smoke eh?

But exactly both are just human beings smoking tobbaco.

Both the gentleman and the thug, are both drunk human beings

abortion is both the ending of a pregnancy and the intentional killing of a human being.

"i thought jesus was about love and peace, and rebirth and forgiveness and that sort of thing. "

he is, but your not.


"abortion causes the death of a fetus. Everyone knows that, so because they know that, you feel that it is the right thing to focus your attacks upon? "

attacks... From your perspective, from ours, its simply highlighting the facts... You have to remember that, my intercourse with you is not to bring about a change in your beliefs... I hold no hope for people, who dont care about other human beings...... My intercourse with you is to highlight the fact that abortion kills another human being, so that others who may read this can have a better understanding of the nature of abortion so that they can make a informed choice, perhaps enccourage them to speak out, to strenghen and in some way maybe inspire greater efforts by other pro lifers and to promote the gospel message of the sanctity of life to those who have an infinity with the sanctity of life, so that they can see for themselves, what I believe to be the only way forward...Christianity.

All this christ and religious stuff is not for those of you who have a selfish attitude towards life and your fellow human beings, thts probably why you felt more comfortable with your own made up faith.. Christianity is primarly about loving god and loving others, the whole of christianity can be simply by those acts... That is what it means to be a christian...Its not for everybody... Thats why when I speak about christ I do so primarly for the pro life ears... Not yours... I have no hope for the likes of you, except my hope in christ touching you.... It would take a miracle for you to become christian..And/or pro life.... But I believe in miracles... I have seen
them in my own life.... So all is not lost, you may meet christ or "know the truth" some day.


"it seems so often that pro-life people are not scientifically minded people, and also being so into religion, the pro-choicers often feel that you people don't have our [i[own[/i] opinions about things; and that you are just using the “collective mind” of christianity as your final backing for everything you say, instead of really truly looking at all sides of the issue."

scientifically minded........ You are joking arnt you.... You do realise that biologically speaking a chunk load of pro choice slogans/arguments ignore the reality of the scientific fact that the unborn human being is a human being.

Now I dont use christianity as my final backing for my arguments, I use scientific facts, appeal to the morality of people and then I teach how christianity, is the only way to reintroduce the morality of pro life people back into society... And that is why christianity is under attack... Because it is the only thing preventing the down fall of society...."i am the saviour of the world"

christianity is all thats left....."the rock".... To cling to in these troubled waters of our time.

"you don't seem to have your own morality,"

if having my "own" morality means being conned into thinking its ok to kill unborn children, then I prefer to accept the morality of christ.

However, it is because of my outlook on the world, that I was able to accept christianity, that I could see it was the truth... One you let go of your fears about what you might loose, you suddenly realise what you have to gain and ultimatly what the world has to gain.

" jesus always tells you what to do. You don't depend on your own experiences and your own learnings in life, just jesus'."

jesus is about freedom, he wants you to choose of your own free will. He has created mankind with a desire to do what is right and a desire to know the truth, he wants you to know what the world is like and then choose the right path, you have chosen selfishness, I have chosen self sacrafice for the good of my fellow human beings.....The message of the cross is self sacrafice.






"you just countered it with your own. Which I answered. So answer mine"

i am pro life... What do you think, of course its wrong to kill people older than yourself... Its wrong to kill human beings, full stop.



"i should re-phrase that. I do not view abortion as the same thing as homicide, which is the word I use when born-people are killed."

obviosly not, if you dont care about the unborn child, why would you be bothered if someone killed her.



"the readers must be so very confused. I know I am"

i know your confused


"killing a four year old is against the law."

and so is speeding

"most laws are created because they are meant to prevent crimes against morality"

most laws are made to generate revenue for the system.... However some are made for the protection of citizens, very few are made for the prevetion of crime against morality....Like stealing, the law is there to protect the citizens goods from another, not to enforce morality, since different people have different moral codes.. Morality can not be enforced.

However it is the primary purpose of government to protect the lives of human beings, living with in its boarders.

"i don't think it's morally wrong ti kill a fetus, thus I don't think it should be illegal. "

but it is the duty of the government to protect the human beings living with their boarders from death, that protection is extended to theft of goods etc.

"it's life is not worth the life of the mother"

and the life of the mother is not worth the life of the fetus, so for matters of there than the probable death of the mother abortion is wrong, but in those rare cases, the mother should have the choice since she is the one who can make a rational decision and express it, she should take into consideration the life of her child before making her choice.

"i don't believe that the fetus is fully human though"

well its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of scientific fact.

"you're the same people who freak out about gay marriage and make the retarded statements like “if we allow gay marriage, next you know people will want legal bestiality!”. That is utterly ridiculous. "

yeah, like when contraception was legalised, we made retarded and ridiculous comments like... Next govenments will want to legalise abortion... Eveyone laughed.

Then when abortion waslegalised we made retarded and ridiculous comments like ... Next govements will want to legalise euthinasia.... Evryone laughed

then when holland legalised euthinasia, we made riducoulous and retarded comments like.... Next the government will want to legalise infantacide.... Everyone laughed


now we are making ridicuous and retarded comments like, if we destroy the laws protecting the sanctity of life... The people of the future will be subjected to accept either slavery by the powerful or death.... You laugh!


Could and may eventually constitute a future where a certain group could impliment its own idea of mercy.

"i'm just shaking my head at the ridiculousness of that statement. It is things like that which bring on the salem witch hunts, the mccarthy trials, and the cold war. Paranoia. A nation under fear. Disgusting. "

well, all I can say is, use what inteligence you have, believe it or not...At the end of the day, it is christ who will save the world.

"the light of the modern world. "

who's that britney spears?

The light of the modern world.... What is the light of the modern world you talk about.... I bet you cant tell me.

sorry it took so long to reply; classes have started up again.



because they cannot defend themselves in the ways adults can; because they are more fragile, and because someone brought them here, thus they deserve to be treated with as much love and proper care as possible. It's like buying a pet. You have a responsibility to care for it once you decide to buy it. Once a child is born, it's parents have the responsibility to care for it and, in emergency situations I believe most people would sacrifice themselves to rescue someone younger than them. I don't however believe that it is society's responsibility to raise a child; that is solely up to the parents. Protect? Yes. Raise? No.



because they are not born yet; they are not wanted yet. They do not have the personalities or anything that makes a child precious; the fetus simply has its parents genes.



yes, but wouldn't you make it illegal if you could, because you view it as morally wrong? That would be choosing for me that I cannot have an abortion.



we do not say that every woman has to abort. A woman can chose to keep her child, she can chose to give it up for adoption. We, or at least i, fully support the life options. But I also feel it is the right of the mother to chose an abortion if she so wishes. There are three choices in pro-choice. Abortion, adoption, or keep. I respect a woman for any decision she makes, and if I would support any of my friends in any of those situations.



you can, but we almost never do. Whether or not you call the ending of a born-person's life prematurely abortion, doesn't really matter. It is morally right, in my opinion, for a mother to prematurely end her pregnancy and kill the fetus inside, if she wants to.



no, I wouldn't kill the child... Because it is born. And you know my reasons already as to why I view the born child as more important.



it is also because they are vulnerable and unable to protect themselves, I will agree to that. But they are also born and wanted.



no, i'll agree to that too. That is part of what makes them human, their personality, their thoughts, their feelings.



as you can see, that is only part of it.



i believe that too.



i don't believe in pre-destiny.



only if you're an unwanted fetus who is younger than 20 weeks, and you're going to ruin some woman's life.



“previously” has to do with your capabilities.



i believe that a fetus of any age that is wanted is more worthy than one that is unwanted.



everything I have mentioned before. Go read it.



read my above statements.



because it can survive, that's why... I don't know, the concept of survival is important to me... I am finding it difficult to explain it. It's sort of a darwinist opinion.



only if you are unable to have an opinion of your own because you've been in a coma for too long and your brain is mush. It is also the pain, or even the lack of pain, that you yourself may be experiencing. I don't know... It just seems to me that a life of drooling on a pillow is no life at all. Return my soul up to nirvana/heaven/ the collective soul, so that I may start a new journey, and so that my family can move on.



that is what you believe euthanasia is. But as far as old people go, euthanasia should only be used on the elder who is cognitive, and can still mentally make their own decisions. That way you don't have evil families knocking off their alzhiemer-afflicted parents to gain inheritances.



if the mother choses to do so, for various previously explained reasons and under various previously explained situations and conditions.



i don't think that's true. I bet you have a black friend somewhere. And if you truly don't care about them, you are a racist and I think you need some therapy.



for fetuses alone, yes. None of those other people apply because, guess what? They are born. Refer to my earlier responses as to why I feel that this is important, and for all the other reasons I think that these born people are more important.



bingo.



because fetuses before 20-something weeks aren't “human” in the sense of viable and born humans, in my opinion. Reference why I feel children are important for my reasons.



well, I sort of agree with you... But I think you're trying to imply that capabilities such as being a brilliant scientist or a great musician etc start at womb development, and I don't believe that. Obviously some people are smarter than others but just because I have the capability to do something doesn't mean I will. And it's not just their ability to improve my life; dear god i'm not that narcissistic.



no it is not, as I just stated. You assumed that and it is false. If I gave birth to an unwanted child because I decided not to abort and I gave it up to adoption I would never want to see that child. There are in fact many people I will never know... Does that make them any less worthy of life? Of course not. Even if they don't affect my life.



except that I don't think that way.



that's nice. If my country was attacked, i'd join the army. I would do it instantly. Yet I am anti-bush. Being anti-bush doesn't make me anti-patriotic. Being pro-choice doesn't make me anti-life.



i don't see how this has to do with abortion, but anyway... I care about america because I was born here. I care because I have voted, i've volunteered, i've donated to katrina relief. It is my country, which is why I fear to see it being turned into an anti-choice cess-pool by conservatives.



well you're only right in the sense that I don't believe that something which is not even fully human should not have the right to make a woman's life living hell.



i look for the good in everyone. All people have something to show me, something to teach me. Every day has lessons. That is what I believe. Even the assholes have lessons to teach.



i'll agree there... Unless you go kill another living born human being. And then, you deserve to die, or go to jail for the rest of your life.



i don't know if I believe that. I know I believe in a god of some kind... But I still believe that he just sort of got the whole universe going, and then sat back and watched. Is that giving us the “right to life”? Or did we develop that on our own, earn it on our own by evolving and developing to the point we are at?



i believe that as a human, I have the duty to protect other humans. Whether or not a god ordained that I don't know. I came to that conclusion by myself.



i can understand that... But pro-choice believes that abortion is also protecting the life of the woman. So it is the protection of human life, and it is also the protection of “happiness”. We feel that you can't always protect everyone, even if you want to. Sometimes, sacrifices have to be made.



and a pro-choicer believes that scientifically, the fetus is not yet a human being, and thus is not subject to the laws of protection whether they be god-ordained or man-ordained. Unless the child is wanted.



i too care about all human beings. A fetus is not a human being to me.



i'm sorry, that's what I meant; they didn't get to their destination; they weren't able to live their full lives. I tried a little metaphor there. I guess it didn't work. Anyway, we do both seem to agree on that... I just feel that certain words are used to apply to certain situations in order to make communication clearer.



i still agree. “abortion” is the premature ending of life. But once again, certain words are used in certain situations for clarity.



which is murder: the killing of a living born person. Not a fetus.



they're free to smoke, but the consequence of smoking around me is that i'll get in their faces about it. Plus, they are killing themselves by doing it. They are not in pain; and I do not approve of suicide - with the exception of euthanasia in old people who are in extreme pain. They are old, they have lived their lives. If they are confined to a bed and hooked up to so much morphine that their heads spin, I wouldn't call that a life for myself, and i'd want to pass on.



i agree... The point is coming up I assume?



except that once again, I don't consider the fetus human. So murder and abortion (the termination of a pregnancy) are two different things to me.



because I approve of killing something that is not, in my opinion and scientific reasoning, human? I am caring and forgiving to living born people.



“god says abortion is wrong” is not a fact.



i care heavily for other human beings. A fetus is not one.



they are getting the nature of your opinion about abortion, not the nature of the “truth” on abortion. My opinion is also not truth, but at least I speak scientific facts to support it.



gag. I'm sorry. I got a lot of that in my youth.



i'm not selfish, I am actually quite selfless. I support a woman's decision to remove a fetus from her body if she needs to, in order to maintain her own quality of life or, in some cases, her very life itself. Also, my religion isn't made up. It's an amalgamation of many religions from around the world. Deists are against organized religion, so we don't have any churches or congregations. It's not that we really mind jesus... We mind his fan-club.



but I don't have a problem with that part of christianity. I have a problem with their inaccurate, contradictory book that is not based in fact. I have a problem with its treatment of women, of its constant warfare, of its written-in doctrine that its followers must force the religion upon the non-believers! And I have a problem with the followers themselves, who do not read the true scholarly version and who are so misled by the catholic church.



yes, but I still have to hear you. Then again, it is a free country and you're allowed to speak these things. Just know what I have the right to speak against them.



brain damage most likely would be the only way. I was christian once, and I matured, became an adult, and learned to make my own decisions.



name a miracle, besides the “miracle of life” because that is just biology. Truly incredible biology, amazing, awesome biology. But life is like that.



except that it does not have all the qualities of a human being. It doesn't even have all of the qualities that define basic life.
What makes a human? Is it simply his or her genetic make-up? Is that enough? Or is it also their personality, their thoughts, their opinions, their experiences?
A fetus may have the genetic material needed to become human, but at the early stages, it is not, in my opinion.



like what?



i have a very strong morality. I don't even hit people, because that is wrong. I always do my best at work, I don't lie, I don't steal. I don't murder, etc. And it would take extreme situations to make me do differently.



barf. Ever heard of buddhism? They're pacifists! Or how about judeism? Is judeism going to cause the world to collapse? I really really don't think so. You are ethnocentric in regards to your religion. Like all christians, you think you're the only ones who are right, and that everyone else is wrong. I happen to know that everyone is possibly right, and that they all have good points to follow.



you are so full of yourself that it sickens me. And you are, i'm not assuming this or infering it. What you type clearly shows you as morbidly prejudiced towards anyone who isn't christian.



i wasn't “conned” into it. I did research. It took many years for me to develop my own feelings and opinions on abortion.



i'm not afraid of things I might lose. Christianity is the religion for people who are afraid to lose things: their own existence means so much to them that they never want it to end; they fear losing loved ones forever so they created heaven, a place where they could see them again. They ere afraid of immorality amongst their own peoples, so they created a punishment, hell. Then they were afraid of their own rules, which were so strict as to be nearly impossible to follow, so they invented jesus to save themselves.

I don't know what is going to happen when I die, so what is important to me is living the best life I can; enjoying life, and helping others enjoy life as well. Caring for my friends and family, and helping those who are in need of aid. Learning all I can so I can be the best person possible, and perhaps leave a mark on this world when I am gone. I'm not good to get into heaven. I am good because it is the right thing to do.



i kind of dislike people always telling me what to do. I don't like being a mindless robot. I like being my own person, and I like taking responsibility for my own actions, for my own triumphs and mistakes. Jesus didn't help me create that beautiful work of art, but then again, it wasn't the devil's fault that I lied to my parents about some misused money. I did both of those things all by myself. Being your own person means taking credit for not only your successes but also our own mistakes. It takes a strong person to admit that they are the ones who made the mistake, and that they don't have to blame it on some “satan”. Once you can take credit for your own mistakes, you can take credit for your own success.

However, in today's society, no one is responsible for their own mistakes anymore. It's always someone else's fault: their upbringing, their schooling, “he started it!' “i was bribed to do it!” etc. I mean, even a woman who dumps coffee on her own lap can sue mcdonalds and get away with it. A burglar breaks into a house, and cuts himself on broken glass inside the house, sues, and gets away with it. Thousands of people fall down on wet floors in stores and sue!! I find this ridiculous. Yet, they want all the credit for all the amazing things they do. It doesn't work that way. If you make something amazing, then you're also the one at fault for dumping coffee on your lap, even if it was an accident. It's not mcdonald's fault that the coffee is hot; it's supposed to be!



no he doesn't, if he's always telling me what to do like you stated above. That is not free will, that is the opposite of free will.



how have you sacrificed yourself lately? If you claim to be so benevolent...



you didn't include the paragraph of yours that was so confusingly and badly written as to be incomprehensible. But of course since you keep removing half of what I type, it's no wonder.



ever been pulled over for going 5 miles over? No. That's speeding, but road conditions sometimes affect your vehicle's speed beyond your control.



but you want to enforce your morality by making abortion illegal. You can't have it both ways. And I think most rules are there because initially, they were based on immoral behaviors.



i'll agree to that for the most part. But what do people need protecting from? Immoral behavior. Thus, rules/laws.



a fetus is not human in my opinion, thus the government has no obligation to protect it.



you can't have it both ways. One is more worthy than the other.



what? I can't even comprehend that sentence.



well of course she should, and i'm sure they do. An abortion is not an easy decision.



yes, so please think about all of the things that make us human, and tell me if the fetus has them at the exact moment that the mother is thinking of aborting it. It might not have many human characteristics, depending on it's developmental stage. And I don't mean just physically. I mean mentally. Look up the qualifiers for something to be “alive”. Viruses you would think should be alive, but they technically are not.



who laughed? Abortion was legal a long time ago, for a long time.. Or did you forget?



infanticide is different... Because it is a born child. And that has been happening in ch9ina for around 50 years.



you are talking about destroying the sanctity of life. I don't even know what you mean by that, since abortion has been legal for a long time, took a break, and is legal once again.



only in your opinion. You have no facts to back that up.



what does britney crap-head have to do with this? She's an fool, she can't sing... And she's acting like she's the first person to ever give birth.

The light of the modern world? Scientific developments. Missions to mars, the ship that just took off to pluto! It is the fastest man-made vehicle ever! We're working to extend the lives of humans, of making each other healthier, of curing disease. We're working on fixing the problems we've cause, and learning about our planet more and more each day. That is the light of the modern world. Learning.

Thanks again for the reply, I enjoyed it and you seem to be replying to my posts a lot better.

"classes have started up again"

lol.

"it's like buying a pet. You have a responsibility to care for it once you decide to buy it."

a child is for life, not just for christmas... That is cold..Saying children are like pets.. That is cold.

"wouldn't you make it illegal if you could, because you view it as morally wrong? That would be choosing for me that I cannot have an abortion. "

if pedophillia was legal, wouldnt you want to make it illigal...Wouldnt you be choosing for others?

Why can you kill children (that in your unsicentific opinion are not children) and say I who support biological fact they are human beings have no right to make abortion legal or force you to give birth to your already concieved child or face prison... Yet you can force pedophiles not to have sex with children and make them face prison if they do (in a pedophiles opinion it may not be wrong to have sex with children) arent you being a little hypocritical?

"we do not say that every woman has to abort."

yes but you say every human being must be subject to their mothers choice to kill them or not.... Every human being (at one point ) you forced your opinion on me... Luckly my mother chose life... I resent you forcing your opinion on me.


"there are three choices in pro-choice."

you forgot the two out comes (not choice) of pro choice for every human being.... Life or death


"you can, but we almost never do."

so I can use the word "abort" to indicate premeture loss of human life... Thank you, thats all I used it as.... Trying to highlight just what abortion does.

"“previously” has to do with your capabilities."

so if I could previously hold a conversation (but not now) I am worth more than someone who will be able to hold a converstaion in the future (but not now)

makes no sense.... Previously is the past... Lets look at it in monetery terms... Who would you say is worth more...Previously I was a milionaire, I am not now, does that mean I am worth more than someone who never was a millionaire but given time will be...Who would you invest in?


Previosuly had to do with my capability, not "has" to do with my capabilites.

But notice the future, "has" to do with future capabilites.

The coma guy (lets assume we know he will get better in 9 months) will have capablities, therefore the future has to do with his capablities.... However at this moment he has no capablities, his past capabilites are meaningless to him now.... But still you wouldnt kill him knowing he would be capable in 9 months time.

Just because the unborn child didnt have capabilites before he was concieved, dosnt mean we should kill him now, knowing he will have many more capabilites in 9 months.

A fetus can smile, walk, suck his thumb etc in the womb, a lot more than a comatose person can.... Yet we wouldnt kill a comatose person, especially if we knew he would be capable even in 9 years time.

"i believe that a fetus of any age that is wanted is more worthy than one that is unwanted."

i am sorry that is a statement oblivious to the reality of the question, I can only assume you believe all children who are born are wanted.... This is not the case... Is a wanted fetus, more important than a unwanted 2 year old... You evade the question.....What is it about the birth process that makes someone worthy.... Not all unwanted children are aborted, but you wouldnt abort an unwanted 2 year olds life.

"i don't know, the concept of survival is important to me."

really, perhaps we should make every child born live in the jungle for 18 years, then if they survive, the cold, the animals and our guns.. Then we can allow them to become fully human.

"for fetuses alone, yes. None of those other people apply because, guess what? They are born. Refer to my earlier responses as to why I feel that this is important"

you evaded the qestion or confussed the issue with wantedness

"because fetuses before 20-something weeks aren't “human”"

scientifically speaking they are...Of course I could make a whole argument about how going to the moon could make us millionaries and giants in the "green cheese" business.... But I would be wrong... Because my whole argument is based on a false opinion about the nature of the moon, in the same way you too are wrong, because your entire argument is based on a false opinion about the unborn child.... But its your opinion, still I dont think the government should be listening to people who think the moon is made of "green cheese" and unborn children are "not fully human".. Just my opinion of course.... But of course, I must be wrong, since it is you who listens to the light of the modern world.

"i believe that as a human, I have the duty to protect other humans. Whether or not a god ordained that I don't know. I came to that conclusion by myself. "

you came to that conclusion because its what you have been taught and is widely accepted by society... Change your education and with it the opinion of the nation and you or future generations would or will believe differently..

"believes that abortion is also protecting the life of the woman. "

also...Also... Since when was pro choice about protecting the life of the child... Anyway... Pro life is "also" protecting the life of the woman because we agree with abortion to save the life of the mother.... Of course, abortion so the mother can go to college is not saving the life of the mother.


"pro-choicer believes that scientifically, the fetus is not yet a human being"

and scientifically the moon is made of green cheese.

"i too care about all human beings. A fetus is not a human being to me."

but the moon is made out of green cheese.... You dont care about all human beings

"which is homicide: the killing of a living born person. Not a fetus. "

you deem homicide as unlawful killing of human beings, most decent people regard the wanton killing of human beings as homicide, such as the lawful killing of the jews was homicide...

Interesting fact, do you know if you drink and drive in germany the penalty is death... Just a law kept by germany that was introduced by adolf.... Need less to say not many drink and drive.

"they're free to smoke, but the consequence of smoking around me is that i'll get in their faces about it."

perhaps it is you who should leave then.

"“god says abortion is wrong” is not a fact. "

abortion kills a living fully human human being is a scientific fact.

" I have a problem with the followers themselves, who do not read the true scholarly version and who are so misled by the catholic church. "

so its only catholics... I see.

Since only the catholic and orthodox churches can trace their apostolic succesion back to the upper room in jeruselem in 33ad.. One could say it is those christians who are not catholic or orthodox who are mislead.

"name a miracle, besides the “miracle of life”"

life is the ultimate miricale, all other miracles are effected on the great miracle... For example, the healing at lourds or fatima or knock etc these are miricles that are effected on people who already have the great miricle... Life.... Life is the miracle you destroy..... Abortion is the greatest evil known to man.

"what makes a human? Is it simply his or her genetic make-up? Is that enough? Or is it also their personality, their thoughts, their opinions, their experiences? "

you mean their soul...Now who is using religious arguments as their back up?

"ever heard of buddhism? They're pacifists!"

so what... We are realists.... Pacifism has its place, but activisim is also a requirment...

"what you type clearly shows you as morbidly prejudiced towards anyone who isn't christian. "

not prejudiced, disillusioned with yes... I dont trust or respect or believe in anyone who is not christian.... Their intentions are not to be trusted.... Christianity is the only thing that has the message of salvation for the world the mssage is for the world.

"" jesus always tells you what to do. You don't depend on your own experiences and your own learnings in life, just jesus'.""

you quoted me as saying this, this was a quote from what you said.

"no he doesn't, if he's always telling me what to do like you stated above. That is not free will, that is the opposite of free will."

like I said I quoted what you said... I didnt say it.

"how have you sacrificed yourself lately? If you claim to be so benevolent"

i havent had sex for over a year out of respect for life, christ and women who may become pregnant due to my selfish sexual desires..


"ever been pulled over for going 5 miles over? No"

yes friday night, actually

"a fetus is not human in my opinion, thus the government has no obligation to protect it. "

in your opinion.... Still I think government should listen to scientific fact... Not you.

"it might not have many human characteristics, depending on it's developmental stage."

so now you say that as soon as the unborn child shows signs of human chricteristic abortion should be ilegal.... Thats a bit fairer I suppose

but you do know a unborn child can preform very human abilities at very early stages, smiling, walking(in the womb) and sucking his thumb...At at 12 weeks and below....

"who laughed? Abortion was legal a long time ago, for a long time.. Or did you forget?"

and christians were around a long long time ago too... But anyhow.. I am talking of when our society legalised it back in the 60's in the uk or the 70's in the us. And the legalisation of contraception in the 30's...

"you are talking about destroying the sanctity of life. I don't even know what you mean by that"

the sanctity of life is the respect for human life that our laws have protected and built up from the begining of our society.

"that is the light of the modern world. Learning."

the 20th centuary was the most bloodiest cetuary in the history of the world, the 21st centuary seems to be a continuation of that....Is that the light of the modern world...Learning how to kill each other abortion being pinicale of modern enlightenment....Christianity is not against scientific learning your so called modern light... Its against the destruction of spritual learning... Science can not give meaning to life, it can not give us the reason for life, it can not even give us the creation of life.. A mission to mars can not teach us to love our neighbour, scientific developments can not teach us about morality.. Working to extend human life, make people helthier, scientidfic developments etc are good things preformed within the sphear of spiritual truth... What good is it to extend human life at the cost of 1 billion children lives... What good is it to be helthier if the person who owns you can kill you... Learn something that can give you true freedom and true wisdom

Izzy you are a true beacon of light in much darkness

what? In my opinion, buying a pet is a huge responsibility. I despise the people who buy a puppy for christmas for their kids, and then once the puppy grows up, the kids don't want it anymore, the family neglects it, and it is eventually passed off to shelter after shelter. Animal abuse is rampant, and horrible.


If you buy a pet, you'd better care for it. Besides just the pet part of my last post, don't you agree with anything else I said in that paragraph? Or could you not find anything to disagree with? You'll notice that I say I agree with you when I do feel the same way as you. I don't get that from you, even though I know you must agree that children are a huge responsibility.



pedophilia is the rape of born children. And it is already illegal. It is the obstruction of the rights of someone who has their own thoughts and feelings. If it wasn't illegal, then I think I would try to work to make it illegal, or at least regulated. Which abortion is.




see above for my reasons.



i was forced to wear whatever my mother made me wear when I was very little; I did not have a choice. Is that wrong? I had to eat what she made me eat. You resent me forcing my opinion? But I am not forcing! I am giving you and your mother and you daughter free reign to do whatever they wish with their bodies. The thing with pro-choice is that everyone stays free, and no one's rights are violated. As I have said before, you don't have to approve of abortion for yourself. You're allowed to express your dislike of it verbally. But you do not have the right to force another woman to use her body in a way she does not want to use it.




you obviously didn't read the three choices: abortion, adoption, or keep. Yes, one out of those three causes the death of the fetus... But that's how it is. And you don't have to chose abortion, ever.




it is, in the case of the fetus, simply the premature loss of life, as it is in any case whatsoever. You can abort the life of a horse, of a dog, of a fish. “abort” does not apply only to humans. So the statement of “premature loss of human life” is not completely correct, because it is being exclusively human, even though you can abort any living creature.




“previously” really only has to do with the basic capabilities that make us human, and not trivial things like conversations. Do not trivialize what I say.




as I do not see how this example has to do with being human, and having the basic abilities of a human, I feel free to answer. I would not invest in you, if this is all the information I had, because obviously you have squandered your money. But perhaps something horrible happened to your family! And perhaps the other person is getting rich through illegal drug trade! How should I know? This is why I don't invest.




assuming we have some amazing new technology that lets us know this... Why are his previous capabilities useless now? It still doesn't change the fact that he is a born human being with experiences and loved ones. It does not change who he is.




no it can't. Even born children can't smile at first.




no it can't, it's leg muscles aren't developed enough. It takes almost a year or two before children can walk. And you can't walk if you're submerged inside of a tight watery sac anyway.




i know it's not, but I wish it was. But I wasn't referring to unwanted, born children. I was referring to wanted, unborn fetuses.




no, because the child is born. You should know that by now, from what I have said.




being capable of sustaining their own life makes them worthy.




that is just idiotic. Whatever. You know that is not my point.




i hope I have answered it now.



yes, yes, genetically. But it is not just genetics that make us “human”. .D.N.A makes us “homo sapiens” but it is everything else about us that makes us “human”.




i don't think the moon is made of green cheese. It is the christian church that denied the existence of jupiter and its moons, it is the christians who refused to admit that the earth was not the center of the universe, and they maintained that the earth was flat, and so I really don't feel like believing in a religion that is so very wrong all the time. And that's not opinion, it's fact.



not “must”, for almost nothing is absolute. Not even god.




why would I want a nation that does not care for its people? Monkeys, whales, even ants care for each other. It is a very animalistic thing to do. But as humans, we have the minds to actually think about why we do such things, and then chose if we wish to continue them.




not all of you. Even you said you'd be willing to become an amputee or even die for your unborn child. And i'm sorry, but becoming a quadruple amputee is not being “protected”.




it is saving her “way” of life. Which I know you find sickening. It is also saving the future she is trying to attain. Maybe (since you people looooove pre-destiny) this woman who has fallen accidentally pregnant while on birth control will be the woman to cure aids... Except that she can't get an abortion in your world. No matter how hard she tries, she can't care for the child and herself and attend expensive medical school, because her boyfriend left her. She has to drop out just to support her child... And aids is never cured.

Of course I don't believe in all of that crap, but you do, so perhaps that story will mean something to you. Don't start up with “if you try hard enough you can do anything”. In this story, she tries as hard as is humanly possible, and it's just not enough.




no it's not edit find me a real modern science book that says that. I don't even think there are any real historic texts that say that.


Sorry for insulting you but you're being really edit, and i'm getting sick of it.




please edit... Your stupidity is making my brain atrophy. My nice streak has been ended by stupidity, as it always is... I'm sorry jenn, the logical fallacies have once again taken over me. But can't you at least agree that I have been exceedingly patient with this man?




uh... So... This seems to simply agree with what I said. Thank you?




well then it obviously works. Drinking and driving is quite a serious offense in my opinion. I don't know if i'd want a death punishment for it in the .U.S, but I do think our policy needs to be stronger than it is.




i can't, they are hypothetically smoking in my place of work. Now what?




it kills a living being that has some characteristics of humans but not all of them.



fine the christian church too. I don't discriminate, I think you're all mislead.




see above.




^sigh^



i'll have to research those places and see if they haven't been explained by placebo effect or natural causes. Like most things are.




did I say soul? No. Do I mean soul? No.




so... It's good to kill people, but only if god says so? Ridiculous. That is why the middle east is still at war with itself. Is it still not the ending of the life you so care for?




isn't it odd that I feel the same way about christians who have shown themselves to be feverishly dedicated? But not other christians; I know some who have minds of their own.




i'll have to look back because i'm pretty damn sure I didn't say “me”. If I did, it is a typo. I meant “you”. I type these responses in word, but it's not perfect. Jesus sure as hell doesn't tell me anything.




you poor nun. No, I can't say that; I have friend who are virgins, and I respect them deeply. But why don't you use birth control (condoms in your case)? Are you married? Are you dating someone? How would your partner feel if you suddenly stopped having sex with them? I'm not saying it's wrong... I can't even bring myself to think that, for I have far too much respect for virgins and for those who abstain. I applaud them, in fact. Just as I applaud those who use proper birth control (like myself... Pat on my own back I guess).




you have asshole cops then. I've never seen that happen. Even my driving instructor said it was fine.


"a fetus is not human in my opinion, thus the government has no obligation to protect it. "

in your opinion.... Still I think government should listen to scientific fact... Not you.[/quote]

i am scientific fact. You are religion. That is the battle of abortion, it is science versus religion.




you already know I feel that beyond 20 weeks is pushing it.




see above for how I think that what you just said (besides the thumb sucking which is shown on ultrasound) is edit




because you didn't include the rest of my post... All I can say is: yes, these things did happen. And it's a damn good thing too.




so, from when geroge washington and others signed the declaration of independence? Abortion was still legal then.




then why did you brand galileo as a heritic?




i'm very spiritual, just not in a christian way.




it's not always about the answers, it is also about the search itself, the quest for knowledge. Besides, science shows us how. “why” is a question answered only by speculation inside of religions.



but logic can. Our own feelings can. These come from within us, and from the outside, with our contact with others. Working to extend our lives for the greater good is a high ideal for many, including myself. But I too wish to be happy, so I work towards things that achieve both ends.



except that if everyone had always listened to religion, we wouldn't have such great things as .Mendel, .Darwin, .Galileo, the mapping of the human genome, etc.



no one owns anyone else. You only own yourself. You own your body. Because you are a person, because you can think, because you are alive and born. If you're not (ie a zef) then you don't have those rights.


Even a mother must make many decisions for her newborn; but she does not “own” that newborn, it owns itself, even if it cannot emote its thoughts quite yet.

It is also about quality of life not quantity, that is why I believe in choice, .D.N.R. Along with Dr. Assisted suicide. Just my opinion and from what I have seen.


Abortion=pre birth
to kill and to use the 'm' word is after the birth just my opinion also.

Letting someone go with a .D.N.R. Is not killing someone just like allowing someome to go to the other side if they are terminal or brain dead or a basic vegetable is not killing either. People should note if they want life support or not, it should be up to the person, or the next of kin.

I agree with you erie, a person is not property, we do not own people.

sandyallen say you are married and have a child and your husband then goes have an affair and leaves you and say on top of that you are laid off from your job. Will it be fair you kill your child cause now you can't support him? No right. And what would you do if you are faced with this situation? You accept the reality and move on. Imagine if you have the choice to kill the born children because the moms are faced with difficult sitations because they are alone and have mininum support. More over say you have a kid or say your husband has a car accident and ends up in a wheel chair. What are you going to do? Oh let's kill him because him being in the wheel chair will affect my quality of life. But you wouldn't do that. In any case if it were your husband you would probably leave him but not kill him. I say stop the excuses that having a baby will affect quality of life cause the thruth is it won't.

I do not kill things that are born, if an elderly person does hve a .D.N.R., I respect that person and I will not bring that person back to suffer if they have terminal cancer, I will alow them to rest in peace, what I was sayig was if the person was totally brain dead and their was nothing that could be done for them.

When I was married one of my ex's did leave me and I supported my kids, and if I would have been laid off, I would have rec'd unemployment insurance and I was always taught to stash a little money back. I would not have killed my kids.

I would not leave my husbamd if he was in an accident and ended up in a wheel chair. I help people like this everyday, I love my husband, why would I leave him. See you just do not know me so please stop trying to think you do or try to judge me.

I would rather see 3to5 aborted that will be abused or neglected or one baby born that will have a good life.

okay sandyallen so for you to self-sacrifice for someone it has to be only born people. Unborn people are worthless. I get it.

Nobody should abuse or neglet a child. That's criminal just as killing the child in the womb.

that's you who thinks so

actually, child abuse and neglect are criminal. Abortion isn't.

no it's not; we believe the woman is far more worthy than her unborn child.

we believe the unborn child is same worthy as the woman. No more and no less, just the same.

see hahaha this "entity" is a human being, so you better rephrase as "you can't give equal rights to one person's body to another human being". I value the idea of fetus (human being in womb) having the right of life same as the woman having a right to life.

i still believe that statement, especially after you rephrased it. No human being has the right to demand or force anyone else to support them with their body.

right you don't have to if don't want to. It's legal to terminate the life of your unborn child (for your peace of mind). We just think that those who do are compassionate about letting live an unborn child have a good heart, and those who don't are cruel. We don't believe we have to force the mothers to have the babies, we expect that they are companssionate about the baby inside of them and want to let them live.