"thre are other uses for the words, but in
our debate, abort obviously referrs to the
killing if an unborn child"
obviosuly not, since I am debating and I
used the word abort in a differet
reference relevent and meaning the same
thing.
The debaters make there rules with what
and how they debate, the rule of debate is
not decided by the topic.
"abort obviously referrs to the killing if
an unborn child, and driving is in
reference to motor vehichles."
you see, you think everyone has to conform
to your rules.. No they dont... You
see I clearly had horse driving in mind
when I brought it up... And I clearly
had the termination of a human life when I
use the word abort... My use of words,
my meanings... Understand!
"it has nothing to do with the argument,
and is thus useless. "
it does have everything to do with it.
"if it was legal I would fight against it.
You cannot homicide born children, or
any other born person."
i agree, but I also fight against the
homicide of the unborn person for the
exact same reason you would fight against
it for born persons.
"it's just my opinion, as I stated. If
you don't believe that we should protect
children, then that's your opinion. And
I don't mean we have to be slaves to
children. I'm just saying that on a
sinking boat, I would rescue a child
first."
you totally evade the question, please
answer it
can you tell me why its our duty to
protect born children and our duty to
allow mothers and doctors to kill unborn
children?
"peg-leg man was once capable of what you
are capable of."
no he wasnt he was formed like that in the
womb and his friend who also has one leg
it happened in the womb too,.. He
survived and abortion attempt.
"as for comatose people or people on
life-support: they too were once capable
of doing all that you can do, and the
potential is still there; they jus need to
get better."
and a unborn child, grow!
"if you can hook up a fetus to life
support and save it, then be my guest."
wasnt it you who said a woman should have
the right to abort a baby in a prostetic
womb?
"it's that whole viability thing."
so it is capabilities that matter!
" if I am a comatose vegetable for 6
months, please kill me."
that is your opinion about your life....
But if I am in the same state, please
dont kill me... You have no right to
make that choice for me!
"if I am a fetus and my existance is
suddenly causing iminent death to my
mother, please kill me"
again its your opinion about your life,
you should not make that judgement about
me, I am a fetus and my existance is
causing iminent death to my mother, please
dont kill me.... Would you kill me?
"if there is a way to save us both, go for
it. But if there isn't, then save her.
She can give birth again later."
if there is a way to save both of us great
go for it, but if there isnt then save me,
she has lived a longer lengh of time more
than me.
"you cannot kill a born person "
well of course you can, you can use a gun,
you fists, poison, a knife.. There are
many ways to kill a born person - the
legaliity aspect is of no importance to
the subject of morality
" if the lazy bum is a man who worked
during his youth and paid social security
as a young man and contributed to society,
then he has a right to retire and do
anything with his time that he wants to
do, don;t you agree?"
even if he has been a lazy bum all his
life, I have no right to interfere with
his life.. I may not agree that he is
living a productive life, but if he views
his life as being productive, who am I to
interfere?
"no born person has the right to kill
another born person, unless of course
they're in a coma"
thats harsh, killing people in coma's is
ilegal
"please have the sense of mind to kill me
if i'm a comatose vegetable for 6 months.
Plesae have the sense of mind to let a
woman abot if the fetus is killing her.
"
well its ilegal (where I live) to kill
people in coma's and although I dont
object to abortion to save the life of the
mother, a woman shouldnt have the right to
kill another human being (unless it is
killing her and there is no other way)
"a truly worthless oxygen stealer. He
has no skills; any he might have are
squandered so he can ontinue to watch
television and drink beer all day long.
"
still he is a nicer person than you, he
dosnt say you are worthless, you see nice
people are worth more than not nice
people, now I am not a nice person..
But neither are you, but this lazy bum is,
so I would rather kill you than the lazy
bum.
"htere are people who don;t contribute at
all to society; so what does society owe
them?"
never the less they are still a part of
society, once we pick and choose who
society owes something too, society ceases
to exist and in its place comes eliteism..
I am branier than you, you are not
worthy to be in the same society as I am,
we become an elite club, it is then that
those who have power can and will lord it
over others and all manor of evils will
come about because of the idea of
superiority.. Whates are better than
blacks.. Slavery, motehrs are better
than their unborn children..
Abortion... Young are better than old
euthinasia... Society owes that bum
everything.. Because he is society, he
is our neighbour.. ... The least of
the least is the people society must seek
to serve.... "the first shall be last
and the last shall be first" - jesus
christ!
Think about how that works and you will
see, jesus is the truth the way and the
life!
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12976
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-26-06 21:59pm
izzy
wrote:
"so you believe that cars
feel pain, women can buy new bodies and
that a car is more sacred than a woman's
body?"
lol, you see what I mean, thick as pigs
shyt!
if you can somehow explain to me how me
saying that a car does not feel pain and a
woman's body does is idiodic, i'd like to
know. I mean, maybe you just don't
understand that a woman's body is far more
sacred than a replaceable car... But
maybe you don't. Either way, insulting me
is a logical fallacy. Please refrain from
such things; I am attempting to.
Quote:
"here is a
significant difference! A fetus cannot
breath on it's own if its too young "
so its back to age is
it?
as always, I think development is one of the
main issues here.
Quote:
so if a child is
born and is unable to breath on its own,
without assistance - would it be ok to
kill the
child?
did you not read my whole section on life
support? Go read it; I won't repeat
myself.
Quote:
"why, do you
drive something other than motor
vehichles? "
yes I sometimes drive my fathers horse and
cart, thats not a motor vehichle.. So
duh... Iq of minus 5, but dont take my
word for it
logical fallacy again for the insult,
though you are right, I had not thought of
the vehicles the local mennonites drive.
Most modern people don't which is why it
didn't immediately occur to me as a common
usage of the word “drive”. Forgive
me, i'm not a “country girl”.
Quote:
http://www.Myhorsestable.Com
/product62.Html
"thre are other uses for the words, but in
our debate, abort obviously referrs to the
killing if an unborn child"
obviosuly not, since I am debating and I
used the word abort in a differet
reference relevent and meaning the same
thing.
are you re-typing what I wrote? Because I
don't recall making all of these typos in
my original post. Anyway... I still
don't see the point of debating what the
words drive and abort mean. People drive
vehicles of all kinds. Mothers abort
babies; as I see it, that is the only
definition of abortion needed for this
debate.
Quote:
the debaters make
there rules with what and how they debate,
the rule of debate is not decided by the
topic.
i feel it is important to ascertain at the
beginning of a debate what words mean,
though it should not be necessary for
words such as “drive”; but in the case
of “abortion” it is important. That
way, none of the debaters is misled,
misunderstood, or misconstrues other's
arguments.
Quote:
"abort obviously
referrs to the killing if an unborn child,
and driving is in reference to motor
vehichles."
you see, you think everyone has to conform
to your rules.. No they dont...
You see I clearly had horse driving in
mind when I brought it up... And I
clearly had the termination of a human
life when I use the word abort... My
use of words, my meanings...
Understand!
so you purposely misled me to what point?
Has that achieved anything except that we
now have another vehicle on the list of
things we drive, which as nothing to do
with abortion or the debate at hand?
Quote:
"it has nothing
to do with the argument, and is thus
useless. "
it does have everything to do with
it.
how so? If you think i'm being obtuse, it
is simply because I want to understand
what it is you're trying to get at. Stop
leading me around and spit it out already.
And if you already have, then apparently
it was not stated clearly enough.
Quote:
"if it was legal
I would fight against it. You cannot
not not a nice act born children, or any
other born person."
i agree, but I also fight against the
homicide of the unborn person for the
exact same reason you would fight against
it for born persons.
"it's just my opinion, as I stated.
If you don't believe that we should
protect children, then that's your
opinion. And I don't mean we have to
be slaves to children. I'm just saying
that on a sinking boat, I would rescue a
child first."
you totally evade the question, please
answer it
and what question was that? Apparently I
didn't understand it; so please restate
it.
Quote:
can you tell me
why its our duty to protect born children
and our duty to allow mothers and doctors
to kill unborn children?
"peg-leg man was once capable of what you
are capable of."
no he wasnt he was formed like that in the
womb and his friend who also has one leg
it happened in the womb too,.. He
survived and abortion
attempt.
well you never told me that, so I had no
way of knowing if he was an amputee or
genetically deformed. Next time, be
clear. I do not like being led on. It
does not benefit either side to do so.
Quote:
"as for comatose
people or people on life-support: they too
were once capable of doing all that you
can do, and the potential is still there;
they jus need to get better."
and a unborn child,
grow!
growth potential and previous potential
are two different things in my mind. A
fetus, in it's past, could not breath on
his own. A comatose person could, before
they became comatose. And the man with
the deformed leg can still do more than a
fetus ever could. I'm sorry for your
friend; I hope he had a good home growing
up, and didn't have to live with the
mother or father who didn't want him.
Quote:
"if you can hook
up a fetus to life support and save it,
then be my guest."
wasnt it you who said a woman should have
the right to abort a baby in a prostetic
womb?
if you'll remember, I said she would only
be able to do that in the case where the
doctor impregnated the a-womb without the
mother and father's permission; the mother
and father who changed their mind should
not be able to kill that
child, because they chose to
give it life.
Quote:
"it's that whole
viability thing."
so it is capabilities that
matter!
they always have, in my opinion.
Quote:
" if I am a
comatose vegetable for 6 months, please
kill me."
that is your opinion about your life....
But if I am in the same state, please
dont kill me... You have no right to
make that choice for
me!
no, because i'm not a family member or
spouse.
Quote:
"if I am a fetus
and my existance is suddenly causing
iminent death to my mother, please kill
me"
again its your opinion about your life,
you should not make that judgement about
me, I am a fetus and my existance is
causing iminent death to my mother, please
dont kill me.... Would you kill
me?
yes. I would attempt to save you, the
fetus, first and foremost; but if that was
impossible then I would abort. You see,
as a mother I have the potential to give
birth to many children. I don't see the
sense in dying on my first try; or,
abandoning my children just to bring
another one into this world.
Quote:
"if there is a
way to save us both, go for it. But if
there isn't, then save her. She can
give birth again later."
if there is a way to save both of us great
go for it, but if there isnt then save me,
she has lived a longer lengh of time more
than me.
so... It's okay to kill old people?
They've lived longer than me.
Quote:
"you cannot kill
a born person
"
now I really think you're misquoting me.
I recall typing “you cannot abort a
born person”. If I somehow made the
mistake of typing kill then forgive me, I
meant “abort”. But i'm pretty sure I
didn't. I think you changed it.
Quote:
well of course
you can, you can use a gun, you fists,
poison, a knife.. There are many ways
to kill a born person - the legaliity
aspect is of no importance to the subject
of morality
obviously there are. But I do not think
aborting is the same thing as killing.
Abort is a word applied only to the
termination of pregnancies. I feel that
this is how it should be used for this
debate. Why do we need to use abort as
such a broad term? If we did so, then
people would use it in every day speech as
such: “two drunk drivers were aborted
last night in a crash”, and we don't.
We say kill.
Quote:
" if the lazy bum
is a man who worked during his youth and
paid social security as a young man and
contributed to society, then he has a
right to retire and do anything with his
time that he wants to do, don;t you
agree?"
even if he has been a lazy bum all his
life, I have no right to interfere with
his life.. I may not agree that he is
living a productive life, but if he views
his life as being productive, who am I to
interfere?
i agree; which is what I said... He is
born, and thus has a right to life. As
long as he doesn't do anything illegal.
Quote:
"no born person
has the right to kill another born person,
unless of course they're in a coma"
thats harsh, killing people in coma's is
ilegal
just my opinion.
Quote:
"please have the
sense of mind to kill me if i'm a comatose
vegetable for 6 months. Plesae have
the sense of mind to let a woman abot if
the fetus is killing her.
"
now I know you're misquoting me;
my spelling is never that atrocious.
Quote:
well its ilegal
(where I live) to kill people in coma's
and although I dont object to abortion to
save the life of the mother, a woman
shouldnt have the right to kill another
human being (unless it is killing her and
there is no other
way)
we do both agree on that issue it seems...
Though above you said you'd rather die
than abort your child. That is your
personal opinion; but you believe it is a
woman's choice if she is in that
situation?
Quote:
"a truly
worthless oxygen stealer. He has no
skills; any he might have are squandered
so he can ontinue to watch television and
drink beer all day long. "
still he is a nicer person than you, he
dosnt say you are worthless, you see nice
people are worth more than not nice
people, now I am not a nice person..
But neither are you, but this lazy bum is,
so I would rather kill you than the lazy
bum.
but according to that, you deserve death
too. I am a very nice person, but I have
no tolerance for excessive laziness. I'm
pretty lazy; but I still go to work and
school and earn my money.
Quote:
"htere are people
who don;t contribute at all to society; so
what does society owe them?"
never the less they are still a part of
society, once we pick and choose who
society owes something too, society ceases
to exist and in its place comes eliteism..
actually, it just goes back to the way it
was before welfare was instated, which
happened earlier in the 20th century. A
lot of social programs started then,
during and after the great depression.
Quote:
i am branier than
you, you are not worthy to be in the same
society as I am, we become an elite club,
it is then that those who have power can
and will lord it over others and all manor
of evils will come about because of the
idea of superiority..
not likely, since we still need someone to
pump our septic tanks and haul our trash;
and they make a whole lot of money doing
that. Then again, they're actually
working.
Quote:
whates are better
than blacks.. Slavery,
oh please, don't even go there. It's not
the same, and you know it.
Quote:
motehrs are
better than their unborn children..
Abortion...
more valuable yes.
Quote:
young are better
than old euthinasia...
you do realize that euthanasia has nothing
to do with the younger people being better
than old people? It has to do with old
people being in incredible pain and
discomfort and just wanting to end it all.
That's what it's about. My great
grandmother starved herself to death when
I was a child because she couldn't get
herself euthanized.
Quote:
society owes that
bum everything.. Because he is
society, he is our neighbour.. ...
The least of the least is the people
society must seek to serve.... "the
first shall be last and the last shall be
first" - jesus
christ!
yawn. I'm going to ignore all religious
references, especially if you go on to
tell me that I should realize that your
god is the true one and that jesus will
save me or something.
Quote:
think about how
that works and you will see, jesus is the
truth the way and the
life!
whoops, there you did it. Oh well.
|
Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 01-27-06 21:51pm
"if you can somehow explain to me how me
saying that a car does not feel pain and a
woman's body does is idiodic, i'd like to
know."
its not what your saying its what you dont
understand that makes you "dumb"
"i mean, maybe you just don't understand
that a woman's body is far more sacred
than a replaceable car"
i do understand that, but that was never
what I was getting at.
"i think development is one of the main
issues here"
yes of course, a 5 year old who is not as
developed as a 25 year old is not "worth"
as much.
"did you not read my whole section on life
support? Go read it"
ah you would not give assistance to a
child who needed it.
"most modern people don't"
ah so "modern people" dont drive
horses.... These people who do are
"unmodern" or "uncivilized"
"forgive me, i'm not a “country girl”.
Well I am a country boy... Does that
make me "uncivilized" and "unmodern" what
you wrote seems to suggest so.
"are you re-typing what I wrote?"
no copy and pasting
"mothers abort babies"
and you see that as a moral right..
Sick!
"as I see it, that is the only definition
of abortion needed for this debate."
but you see from our pov we are trying to
show how abortion is the ending of a human
life..We do not differentiate between the
worthiness of a fetus or a lazy bum...
Both are unique individuals in need of
protection by society.
" feel it is important to ascertain at the
beginning of a debate what words mean"
i guess we should all study the dictionary
and have masters in english then!
"so you purposely misled me to what
point?"
to show you that you are easily mislead.
"has that achieved anything except that we
now have another vehicle on the list of
things we drive, which as nothing to do
with abortion or the debate at hand?
"
yes, now you know you dont have the
inteligence to know the difference between
direct information to a specific point of
understanding and indirect information to
a specific point of understanding...
At least with this knowledge you may (if
your honest enough) question your
beliefs.
"how so?"
if one does not understand the use of
words in a context outside of the issue
but relevent to the issue how can we make
use of our words in our arguments at
all.
"stop leading me around and spit it out
already. And if you already have, then
apparently it was not stated clearly
enough."
the car did not represent the body, but
the "car accident" represented the effect
on the body just as the illness
represented the effect on the body, both
are unpridictable.. The use of a 2 yr
old child represents the unborn child, a
unique and livng human being, who may or
may not cause adverse effects towards our
lives.
"what question was that? Apparently I
didn't understand it; so please restate
it"
i did.... Can you tell me why its our
duty to protect born children and our duty
to allow mothers and doctors to kill
unborn children?
"well you never told me that, so I had no
way of knowing if he was an amputee or
genetically deformed. Next time, be
clear. I do not like being led on."
i didnt know he was until you started
making assumptions about people.. Just
told you so you knew your assumptions that
lead to opinions can be wrong.
"growth potential and previous potential
are two different things in my mind.
"
why.. Both are at that moment
"uncapable" but will be capable given the
opportunity... Whats the difference?
"a fetus, in it's past, could not breath
on his own. "
and a 45 year old man in his past couldnt
breath on his own, since he was a human
being at the fetus stage.
"a comatose person could, before they
became comatose."
depends how far back...Like I say they
couldnt before they were so many weeks
old... Anyway what does the ability to
breath make to the moral question of
wether someone deserves the right to life
or not?
"the man with the deformed leg can still
do more than a fetus ever could. "
and more than a 1 week old baby ever
could... Do we allow 1 week old babies
to be killed?
"i'm sorry for your friend; I hope he had
a good home growing up, and didn't have to
live with the mother or father who didn't
want him."
he is not real he is a fictional charicter
who I can use and manipulate to serve my
argument... He dosnt exist, heis
fictional.
"and didn't have to live with the mother
or father who didn't want him. "
better off that he died eh? Not much
of "quality" of life there eh?
Well my fictional friend disagrees.
"if you'll remember, I said she would only
be able to do that in the case where the
doctor impregnated the a-womb without the
mother and father's permission"
just as if the sperm fertalised the egg
without your permission, fact is its not
the life of the child or the freedom of
the mother your fighting for its the right
to kill childern, in unwanted pregnancies
or in incubating machines... No
matter.. You want to have the right to
kill children you dont want!
"they always have, in my opinion."
no comment, just let people with sane
minds acknowledge this!
"no, because i'm not a family member or
spouse. "
i wouldnt want my family member or my
spouse to kill me... Should they be
allowed to do so.. Why, what gives
them express rights over my life (in
whatever state) over my own express
wishes
"yes. I would "
you would go against my express wishes and
kill me, I am afraid this maybe the future
for other peple you and others like you
deem undersirable... If we dont work
together to stop people like you.
"as a mother I have the potential to give
birth to many children. "
as a female child I have the potential to
give birth to many children
as a male child I have the potential to
father many children.
But I suppose "growth potential and
previous potential are two different
things in" your "mind."
"so... It's okay to kill old people?
They've lived longer than me. "
so its okay to kill young people who
havent lived as log as me?
"“you cannot abort a born person”
of course you can, you can abort them with
poison, or a knife or a scalpal or a with
a big suction tube or with excessive salt
or by denying them a place on the earth
(natural environment) etc
"i meant “abort”. But i'm pretty
sure I didn't. I think you changed it.
"
i didnt, copy and paste
"i do not think aborting is the same thing
as killing."
so if I aborted the life of george bush..
It wouldnt be the same as killing?
"abort is a word applied only to the
termination of pregnancies."
the word "abort" is applied to many things
including the life of the human being
inside the womb, infact abort in its
proper terms in the issue of abortion
refers to the ending of a human beings
life in the womb, termination in the
abortion instance usulally ( in medical
terms) refers expilicitly to the ending of
the pregnant state of a woman, to
"terminate the pregnancy" is to incude the
"abortion" or "ending of the human beings
life within the womb... Still agree
with abortion or are you a "termination"
kind of woman now?
"why do we need to use abort as such a
broad term?"
because language is important in
understanding what it means.
So abort mean to end premetually, before
fullfilment
that can be applied to a lot of things,
but in the isse of abortion it is usualy
refered to the medical ending of the
development of the human being with in the
womb.
"to cease growth before full development
or maturation"
"to interfere with the development of;
conclude prematurely"
"to stop the progress of "
"to bring forth premature or stillborn
offspring "
of course a couple of these things can be
in reference to many things, pregancy,
unborn children (both in issue of abortion
depending on persons stand) or in the end
of a business take or such like.. But
abort in the issue of abortion does not
mean soley the ending of a pregnancy, it
usually means the bringing forth of
premature or stillborn offspring out of
choice.
"“two drunk drivers were aborted last
night in a crash”,
two drivers lives were tragically aborted
last night in a crash,,, does this not
make sense.. If I used this, I would
be understood,, our regualr use of words
is normally linked to our ideas towards
words and our ideas towards the world
around us.. For example
a woman would "kill" a 2 year old child
but she would "abort" a unborn fetus..
A gentelman would smoke a ciggerette a
hoodlum may give others cancer
a gentleman may partake in the sampling of
fine ale, where a thug may proceede to
drink excessive alcohol.
It depends on your ones idea of words and
ones idea of the world arround them...
Both can be expessed in certain ways to
bring others to a understanding the the
person using the words desire.... The
getnelman talking of another may wish to
express the thginess of this man drinking
alcohol by saying he was drinking
excessive alcohol, while stating he is
only partaking in the sampling of fine
ales as a way of justifing or playing down
his own excessive drinking.. Whle pro
choice wish to concentrate on the
termination of a pregnancy when promoting
abortion to others, pro life prefer to
concentrait on the ending of a human
beings life... Only natural we want
people to be on ourside.. But we arnt
affraid of the truth.. If fact most
inteligent people can see christians love
the truth because the truth is jesus
christ....But we dont mind concentraiting
our efforts on the endding of a human
beings life..Because we respect peoples
inteigence to know that both are the same
thing or at least the procedure causes
both effects... We concetrait on the
humanity of the human being, we do not
fear that people will have the intelect to
know this because we are for the truth we
are for jesus...While pro choice plays on
people lack of inteligence (as I see in
you) or peoples desire to concentrait on
another aspect of the truth, for whatever
reason, actuall abortion, money or just
plain boardom.... Of course there are
many just like you!
"as long as he doesn't do anything
illegal. "
why ilegal, does the government have right
to kill people for disobaying the law...
Now you can not diffeientiate....
Does action against legality constitute
death or is it the crime against moral
standards...
Does going 2 miles of an hour over the
speed limit intentionally or not deserve
death?
Does intentionally killing a 4 year old
little girl constitute death?
What out rages you more, the crime against
law or the crime against morlity?
Morality isnt it... So lets not beat
about the bush we are not talking of a
crime against law, we are talking of a
crime against morality, in praticular a
crime against humanity... Unless your
compleatly thick, you know it and I know
it....
Does unitentionally being concieved
constitute death?
"you do realize that euthanasia has
nothing to do with the younger people
being better than old people? It has
to do with old people being in incredible
pain and discomfort and just wanting to
end it all."
same argument... Either you are thick
or you know it as well as I do!
Check this link out and see where it
states " under the consent of the
individual"..... It dosnt!
now you tell me, euthinasia means "under
the consent of the individual" and I will
say your wrong.
Abort a pregancy may mean abort a
pregnancy ( which is understandable for
the mothers lifes sake) but it is still
(killing a human being which is immorral)
now euthinasia maybe getting promoted as a
means of mercy killing (playing on the
idea that mercy comes in the form of the
individuals concent) but as we see from
aborting a pregnancy (due to mothers life)
to killing unborn children (for any
reason)
we know that we will get "mercy killing"
in the form of anothers percieved idea of
mercy, and one could easily see how this
could be used, should we decide on a adolf
hittler type leader... Of course no
one can see how we are being primed to
accept it.. No one thinks that because
people now dont believe in killing people
without their express wishes, allow laws
that wouldeat away at the sacredness of
life and their rights could and may
eventually constitute a future where a
certain group could impliment its own idea
of mercy... But we dont care right?
Well I do!
You see, people say I care only about the
fetus... Its so wrong
i am aginst abortion and euthiasia,
because I care about the future of
humanity...Thats every single human being
after me... Not the future of society,
but the future of the individual.. Thats
the future, I see... Thats the way
forward.. I dnt want the people of the
future to suffer terrible things...
And that more than anything is what
brought me to christianity...You see thats
what people dont seem to grasp with
christianity they think is only about
believing in jesus as the son of god but
its not... "i am the saviour of the
world" .. Big claim... Look into
it!
You see some would say I am a christian
because it supports my concerns for the
world... But you see, I look at jesus
and his word and I can see it is the real
truth...
People can only see themselves, they see
christianity as a oppresion of their
freedom.(freedom from pregancy?)..Freedom
from god... But anyone can see this
"freedom" means becoming slaves to
somthing darker.... Evil...
Manifest in human beings... The
killing of unborn human being, the "mercy
killing" of born human beings.... See
the truth..... See the reality....See
the way - jesus christ, son of
god....Faith... Dosnt matter how you
get their, so long as you get their!.....
The bible, read it, and...Think
"blessed are you who thirst and hunger for
what is right, you shall be filled... If
you look,and think.... Yours is the
kingdom of heaven .....Praise be to god
for giving me his grace and hopefully
through that, salvation.
By the way just out of curiosity is it
"modern" people who have abortions?
"modern"
is mercy killing modern?
Me... I always liked christmas...I
prefer traditional
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12976
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 01-29-06 02:03am
izzy
wrote:
"if you can somehow explain
to me how me saying that a car does not
feel pain and a woman's body does is
idiodic, i'd like to know."
its not what your saying its what you dont
understand that makes you
"dumb"
what is it that I don't understand? I
am presenting all of my facts and opinions
to you without trying to mislead you, or
make you look stupid, or evil. I am
presenting them objectively. So
please, out of respect for the debate,
respond to me with like respect.
Quote:
"i mean, maybe
you just don't understand that a woman's
body is far more sacred than a replaceable
car"
i do understand that, but that was never
what I was getting
at.
then what is it that you're getting at?
Stop beating around the bush.
Quote:
"i think
development is one of the main issues
here"
yes of course, a 5 year old who is not as
developed as a 25 year old is not "worth"
as much.
actually as you may have noticed in my
previous post, I stated that I view born
children as far more important than
adults. It seems to me that you are
forgetting every point I make just in
order to make an inaccurate statement on
my beliefs.
Quote:
"did you not read
my whole section on life support?
Go read it"
ah you would not give assistance to a
child who needed
it.
yes, I would. I specifically stated
it. I'd like other people to get in on
this, and please quote me; I feel arrogant
quoting myself and quite frankly, I
shouldn't have to.
Quote:
"most modern
people don't"
ah so "modern people" dont drive
horses.... These people who do are
"unmodern" or
"uncivilized"
no, you “ride” a horse, you do not
“drive” it. Of course, this ends
up in the same argument along with
“drive” and “abort”, an argument
which I still feel is pointless. It's
also nice how you're taking my words out
of context, whereas I preserve your
original, unadulterated text for all to
see.
Quote:
"forgive me, i'm
not a “country girl”.
Well I am a country boy... Does
that make me "uncivilized" and "unmodern"
what you wrote seems to suggest
so.
no, but it gives you even less right to
tell me whether or not to have an
abortion, because you're male. My
parents live in a single wide, there are
cows in our backyard. I've lived in
the country, but that doesn't make me
“country folk”.
Quote:
"are you
re-typing what I wrote?"
no copy and
pasting
i highly doubt it.
Quote:
"mothers abort
babies"
and you see that as a moral right..
Sick!
yes I see it as right. I'm allowed to,
thank goodness. And you're allowed to
think it's wrong; but you do not have the
right to force that belief on any woman,
espcially being a man.
Quote:
"as I see it,
that is the only definition of abortion
needed for this debate."
but you see from our pov we are trying to
show how abortion is the ending of a human
life..We do not differentiate between the
worthiness of a fetus or a lazy bum...
Both are unique individuals in need of
protection by society.
" feel it is important to ascertain at the
beginning of a debate what words mean"
i guess we should all study the dictionary
and have masters in english
then!
that would be an excellent start.
Quote:
"so you purposely
misled me to what point?"
to show you that you are easily
mislead.
i think it just shows that your arguments
aren't good enough to stand on their own,
so you have to try an make them seem more
important by misleading me until you
dramatically reveal the answer. That's
what I think, anyway, and I may be wrong.
But I just give the answers, right up
front. The sooner you know what i'm
talking about, the sooner you can give a
rebuttal, instead of feeling indefensible
for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Waiting around for you to get to the point
gets boring.
Quote:
"has that
achieved anything except that we now have
another vehicle on the list of things we
drive, which as nothing to do with
abortion or the debate at hand? "
yes, now you know you dont have the
inteligence to know the difference between
direct information to a specific point of
understanding and indirect information to
a specific point of understanding...
At least with this knowledge you may (if
your honest enough) question your
beliefs.
you expect me to question my beliefs on
abortion because you showed me how the
word drive applies to horse-and-buggies as
well as motorized vehicles? I...
That makes so little sense to me that I
won't even try. Maybe it makes sense
to you, but...
Quote:
"how so?"
if one does not understand the use of
words in a context outside of the issue
but relevent to the issue how can we make
use of our words in our arguments at
all.
do you use the word “abort” to refer
to the death of a born person? No,
most likely you don't. Normal people
don't. Abortion, for people inside and
outside of the abortion debate, means the
killing of an unborn child. There are
many words with primary meanings that
people almost never use in reference to
their secondary meanings. Like
“intercourse” for example. It
means, to most people, to have sex.
However, it also means “to discuss” or
“to have a conversation with
(someone)”. But people almost never
use it to mean that. If you say “we
intercoursed all night long” people will
immediately think you mean sex.
Quote:
"stop leading me
around and spit it out already.
And if you already have, then apparently
it was not stated clearly enough."
the car did not represent the body, but
the "car accident" represented the effect
on the body just as the illness
represented the effect on the body, both
are unpridictable.. The use of a 2
yr old child represents the unborn child,
a unique and livng human being, who may or
may not cause adverse effects towards our
lives.
well, it is true that both car crashes and
illnesses are sometimes accidental...
And so too are pregnancies. You fix
cars, you cure illnesses... And women
get abortions to deal with accidental
pregnancies. A two year old is not the
same as an unborn child in my opinion,
thus it cannot represent an unwanted
fetus. A wanted fetus, it can
represent to an extent. However, as I
said, if my two year old was somehow going
to cause my death, but I could save him, I
would do so. But I would not sacrifice
myself for my fetus, especially if there
was no way for both of us to survive.
Quote:
"what question
was that? Apparently I didn't
understand it; so please restate it"
i did.... Can you tell me why its
our duty to protect born children and our
duty to allow mothers and doctors to kill
unborn
children?
because they are born; they are wanted,
they are the next generation. That is
why we should protect children. It
isn't your duty, but I seriously feel that
I myself should do so. And I feel that
it is just as important to allow mothers
to end unwanted pregnancies so that they
may someday properly care for their wanted
children.
Quote:
"well you never
told me that, so I had no way of knowing
if he was an amputee or genetically
deformed. Next time, be clear.
I do not like being led on."
i didnt know he was until you started
making assumptions about people..
Just told you so you knew your assumptions
that lead to opinions can be
wrong.
you are the one who said he was a genetic
deformity, and that his friend was a
failed abortion. When I give examples,
I am the one who dictates what they are,
and I try to keep them as simple as
possible. A bum. I had to further
define that for you because you needed me
to, and I explained that I meant a person
who is a total waste on society. You
however didn't “know” that the peg-leg
man was born that way until I
“assumed” things about him? Does
this mean that you made up his deformity
just to try and disprove me? So your
idea about what you meant changed once you
saw that your plan wasn't working? I
had my definition of bum set from the
beginning, and I didn't change it just to
attack you better.
Quote:
"growth potential
and previous potential are two different
things in my mind. "
why.. Both are at that moment
"uncapable" but will be capable given the
opportunity... Whats the
difference?
had to read that a couple of times, but I
think I get it now... “will be
capable” is the important part of that,
because that is only the future. A
fetus and a comatose person “will” be
able to breath on their own etc (we are
assuming the coma patient survives for
this mini-scenario). However, previously, the coma
patient was also able to breath on his
own. The fetus was not. I feel
like i'm repeating myself... But at
least i'm not changing my meanings; i'm
just clarifying them.
Quote:
"a fetus, in it's
past, could not breath on his own.
"
and a 45 year old man in his past couldnt
breath on his own, since he was a human
being at the fetus
stage.
but he is born. And I mean since
birth, obviously. Sorry I didn't
specify that, I didn't mean to lead you on
to the wrong conclusion, if I did.
Quote:
"a comatose
person could, before they became
comatose."
depends how far back...Like I say they
couldnt before they were so many weeks
old... Anyway what does the
ability to breath make to the moral
question of wether someone deserves the
right to life or
not?
it's not just breathing, and I have said
that before. It is the whole
package.
Quote:
"the man with the
deformed leg can still do more than a
fetus ever could. "
and more than a 1 week old baby ever
could... Do we allow 1 week old
babies to be
killed?
no, as I have said before (twice in this
post alone), because they are born. Do
you not read what I type? I'm really
beginning to believe that you don't.
Quote:
"i'm sorry for
your friend; I hope he had a good home
growing up, and didn't have to live with
the mother or father who didn't want
him."
he is not real he is a fictional charicter
who I can use and manipulate to serve my
argument... He dosnt exist, heis
fictional.
i wrote about the peg-leg and bum issue
earlier. Go read it. The bum is
not “manipulated” and changed after
the fact just to serve my purpose. I
was thinking of the most basic, up front
definition of a bum, and figured that it
would suffice. You cannot just be
satisfied with a man with a peg leg; you
have to manipulate it to make you (in my
opinion) weak argument seem strong; and I
once again refuted it.
Quote:
"and didn't have
to live with the mother or father who
didn't want him. "
better off that he died eh? Not
much of "quality" of life there
eh?
no, better off he was adopted, since he
survived. I do value survival, you
see. Since you like making up
fictional stories, at what week in the
pregnancy was your fictional friend badly
aborted? And can fetuses even survive
something like that?
Quote:
well my fictional
friend
disagrees.
quite frankly I don't give a flying
fuck about your fictional
friend. Why? Because he is
fictional, and doesn't contribute anything
to the debate. Sorry for the swearing.
I have an incredible amount of
patience, but occasionally it wears
thin.
Quote:
"if you'll
remember, I said she would only be able to
do that in the case where the doctor
impregnated the a-womb without the mother
and father's permission"
just as if the sperm fertalised the egg
without your permission, fact is its not
the life of the child or the freedom of
the mother your fighting for its the right
to kill childern, in unwanted pregnancies
or in incubating machines... No
matter.. You want to have the
right to kill children you dont
want!
i view the a-womb and accidental modern
pregnancies exactly the same. I most
certainly do want, and do have, that
right. But once again, only if they're
unborn and non-viable. Killing born
children of any age, or viable fetuses is
bad in my opinion, unless the mother's
life is at considerable risk.
Quote:
"they always
have, in my opinion."
no comment, just let people with sane
minds acknowledge
this!
because the first half of my quote is
missing there, even I have no idea what
you're taking about. And i'm the one
who wrote it.
Quote:
"no, because i'm
not a family member or spouse. "
i wouldnt want my family member or my
spouse to kill me... Should they
be allowed to do so.. Why, what
gives them express rights over my life (in
whatever state) over my own express
wishes
because they love you, and they don't want
to see you suffering in a vegetative
state, wasting away for twenty years.
That might cause them severe emotional
pain, have you ever thought of that?
Not to mention financial strain.
Quote:
"yes. I
would "
you would go against my express wishes and
kill me, I am afraid this maybe the future
for other peple you and others like you
deem undersirable... If we dont
work together to stop people like
you.
if you were an unwanted fetus, yes i'd
still kill you, especially if your
existence was possibly going to kill me.
Quote:
"as a mother I
have the potential to give birth to many
children. "
as a female child I have the potential to
give birth to many children
as a male child I have the potential to
father many children.
But I suppose "growth potential and
previous potential are two different
things in" your
"mind."
you know they are. I agree, female and
male children do have those potentials.
But they are born and they are wanted.
Oh, did you mean male and female
fetuses? Because I don't care about
them.
Quote:
"so...
It's okay to kill old people?
They've lived longer than me. "
so its okay to kill young people who
havent lived as log as
me?
by meaning born children, no it's not, as
i've said many times. But meaning
fetuses, yes it is fine. However, you
didn;t answer my question, you just
countered it with your own. Which I
answered. So answer mine.
Quote:
"“you cannot
abort a born person”
of course you can, you can abort them with
poison, or a knife or a scalpal or a with
a big suction tube or with excessive salt
or by denying them a place on the earth
(natural environment) etc
"i meant “abort”. But i'm
pretty sure I didn't. I think you
changed it. "
i didnt, copy and
paste
that is not the full paragraph I typed;
and it makes no sense the way you have
“copy-pasted” it. I am getting
very tired of you trying to make me look
like an fool by taking my statements out
of context.
Quote:
"i do not think
aborting is the same thing as killing."
so if I aborted the life of george bush..
It wouldnt be the same as
killing?
i should re-phrase that. I do not view
abortion as the same thing as murder,
which is the word I use when born-people
are killed. “kill” works in
reference to the ending of any life at
all; animal, fetus, child, adult. That
is why we have specific words for specific
situations.
Quote:
"abort is a word
applied only to the termination of
pregnancies."
the word "abort" is applied to many things
including the life of the human being
inside the womb, infact abort in its
proper terms in the issue of abortion
refers to the ending of a human beings
life in the womb, termination in the
abortion instance usulally ( in medical
terms) refers expilicitly to the ending of
the pregnant state of a woman, to
"terminate the pregnancy" is to incude the
"abortion" or "ending of the human beings
life within the womb... Still
agree with abortion or are you a
"termination" kind of woman
now?
i'm pro-choice. And your paragraph
supports what I said. It refers to the
“termination” aka the “ending” of
a pregnancy.
Quote:
"why do we need
to use abort as such a broad term?"
because language is important in
understanding what it
means.
see above. We have specific words for
specific things for a reason.
Quote:
so abort mean to
end premetually, before fullfilment
that can be applied to a lot of things,
but in the isse of abortion it is usualy
refered to the medical ending of the
development of the human being with in the
womb.
yes... Which is how I use it.
Maybe your point is coming up in the next
section. I'll wait and see if I can
find it.
Quote:
"to cease growth
before full development or maturation"
"to interfere with the development of;
conclude prematurely"
"to stop the progress of "
"to bring forth premature or stillborn
offspring "
of course a couple of these things can be
in reference to many things, pregancy,
unborn children (both in issue of abortion
depending on persons stand) or in the end
of a business take or such like..
But abort in the issue of abortion does
not mean soley the ending of a pregnancy,
it usually means the bringing forth of
premature or stillborn offspring out of
choice.
okay. Still not seeing the point...
And so far, you're still agreeing with
me.
Quote:
"“two drunk
drivers were aborted last night in a
crash”,
two drivers lives were tragically aborted
last night in a crash,,, does this not
make sense..
but I thought abort was interchangeable
with kill! And if it does mean to
“end prematurely, before fulfillment”
then technically the drivers were
aborted, since they never reached their
destination! And you're the one who
says that you can abort born people with
guns etc. You posted that, remember?
Quote:
if I used this, I
would be understood,, our regualr use of
words is normally linked to our ideas
towards words and our ideas towards the
world around us.. For example
a woman would "kill" a 2 year old child
but she would "abort" a unborn
fetus..
i concur.
Quote:
a gentelman would
smoke a ciggerette a hoodlum may give
others cancer
no, they're both polluting my air and i'd
shove the cigarettes down both of their
throats.
Quote:
a gentleman may
partake in the sampling of fine ale, where
a thug may proceede to drink excessive
alcohol.
ah but there is a difference in the amount
consumed in that case; tasting ale is a
“sipping” process and the most those
people ever achieve is a buzz. A
“hooligan” who gets plastered drinks
copious amounts of alcohol to do so.
Those situations are not the same in my
observation.
Quote:
it depends on
your ones idea of words and ones idea of
the world arround them... Both can
be expessed in certain ways to bring
others to a understanding the the person
using the words desire.... The
getnelman talking of another may wish to
express the thginess of this man drinking
alcohol by saying he was drinking
excessive alcohol, while stating he is
only partaking in the sampling of fine
ales as a way of justifing or playing down
his own excessive drinking..
if either of them are excessively drinking
then they're both alcoholics and I for one
would refer to them as such. But I
think I may finally be seeing the point
you're trying desperately to make.
Let's see if you pull it off.
Quote:
whle pro choice
wish to concentrate on the termination of
a pregnancy when promoting abortion to
others, pro life prefer to concentrait on
the ending of a human beings life...
Only natural we want people to be on
ourside.. But we arnt affraid of
the truth..
uh oh, here it comes... I still think
that jesus wants his religion back.
Quote:
if fact most
inteligent people can see christians love
the truth because the truth is jesus
christ....
only “intelligent” christian people. The
rest of us are “uneducated heathens”.
Quote:
but we dont mind
concentraiting our efforts on the endding
of a human beings
life..
how depressing... I thought jesus was
about love and peace, and rebirth and
forgiveness and that sort of thing.
Quote:
because we
respect peoples inteigence
that's about the third way you've
attempted to spell intelligence, just to
let you know.
Quote:
to know that both
are the same thing or at least the
procedure causes both
effects...
abortion causes the death of a fetus.
Everyone knows that, so because they know
that, you feel that it is the right thing
to focus your attacks upon?
Quote:
we concetrait on
the humanity of the human being,
we focus on the inhumanity of the fetus.
Quote:
we do not fear
that people will have the intelect to know
this because we are for the truth we are
for jesus...
*yawn*
Quote:
while pro choice
plays on people lack of inteligence (as I
see in you) or peoples desire to
concentrait on another aspect of the
truth, for whatever reason, actuall
abortion, money or just plain boardom....
Of course there are many just like
you!
pardon? But I happen to know that you
know that abortion causes death... But
it seems so often that pro-life people are
not scientifically minded people, and also
being so into religion, the pro-choicers
often feel that you people don't have our
[i[own[/i] opinions about things; and that
you are just using the “collective
mind” of christianity as your final
backing for everything you say, instead of
really truly looking at all sides of the
issue. No matter how intelligent you
may actually be, you people always seem to
come off as very ignorant to us, because
you don't seem to have your own morality,
and you don't make decisions for yourself;
jesus always tells you what to do. You
don't depend on your own experiences and
your own learnings in life, just jesus'.
And I was raised that way, and it wasn't
enough for me. I had to know real
things. The small world of christian
doctrine wasn't enough for me.
Quote:
"as long as he
doesn't do anything illegal. "
why ilegal, does the government have right
to kill people for disobaying the law...
Now you can not diffeientiate....
Does action against legality
constitute death or is it the crime
against moral
standards...
oh man. Once again, context!! The
readers must be so very confused. I
know I am. This was the bum again,
right? As long as the bum didn't do
anything illegal, I felt he had the right
to live. Of course the government has
the right to imprison people, and, if
their crimes are heinous enough, I support
the death penalty. Most criminals do
not reform, it's a fact. Especially
pedophiles, which is why they have to
register.
Quote:
does going 2
miles of an hour over the speed limit
intentionally or not deserve
death?
nope, because it's not that serious.
Cops don't even pull over for 5 miles over
the limit, because changes in road surface
can cause that slight difference. It
is not a serious problem, 2 miles over.
Now if you are being a very irresponsible
driver and going 20 miles over the limit,
then obviously you should be ticketed.
Quote:
does
intentionally killing a 4 year old little
girl constitute
death?
yes.
Quote:
what out rages
you more, the crime against law or the
crime against
morlity?
killing a four year old is against the
law. Most laws are created because
they are meant to prevent crimes against
morality; committing things that are
crimes are normally things that are
morally wrong; like stealing. Not all
deserve death. Driving recklessly over
the speed limit is also morally wrong
because you endanger yourself and other
drivers.
Quote:
morality isnt
it...
both, as you just saw.
Quote:
so lets not
beat about the bush we are not talking of
a crime against law, we are talking of a
crime against morality, in praticular a
crime against humanity... Unless
your compleatly thick, you know it and I
know it...
as I said... Read above. So...
It comes down tot he fact that I don't
think it's morally wrong ti kill a fetus,
thus I don't think it should be illegal.
Quote:
does
unitentionally being concieved constitute
death?
moral crimes are only committable by born
people... It's not the fetus's fault,
but it's life is not worth the life of the
mother; and it's a little like legal
killing during times of war. I don't
want to make that example because the
fetus is defenseless and an abortion is
nothing like a war, but it's the closest
thing I can think of at the moment.
The mother has the right to decide what
her body is doing. You got me on that
one for a few moments. But it is still
mother over fetus.
Quote:
"you do realize
that euthanasia has nothing to do with the
younger people being better than old
people? It has to do with old
people being in incredible pain and
discomfort and just wanting to end it
all."
same argument... Either you are
thick or you know it as well as I
do!
i'm once again confused.
Quote:
check this link
out and see where it states " under the
consent of the individual"..... It
dosnt!
now you tell me, euthinasia means "under
the consent of the individual" and I will
say your
wrong.
it doesn't but it should. Just my
opinion.
Quote:
abort a pregancy
may mean abort a pregnancy ( which is
understandable for the mothers lifes sake)
but it is still (killing a human being
which is
immorral)
i don't believe that the fetus is fully
human though, which is why I don't think
it's immoral.
Quote:
now euthinasia
maybe getting promoted as a means of mercy
killing (playing on the idea that mercy
comes in the form of the individuals
concent) but as we see from aborting a
pregnancy (due to mothers life) to killing
unborn children (for any reason)
we know that we will get "mercy killing"
in the form of anothers percieved idea of
mercy, and one could easily see how this
could be used, should we decide on a adolf
hittler type leader...
what the fuck? How the hell does
that relate? Now i'm offended. I'd
have rather known my great grandmother had
gone in peace than see her waste away for
weeks. That, in my opinion, is sick.
Quote:
of course no one
can see how we are being primed to accept
it..
you... I give up. You're the same
people who freak out about gay marriage
and make the retarded statements like
“if we allow gay marriage, next you know
people will want legal bestiality!”.
That is utterly ridiculous.
Quote:
no one thinks
that because people now dont believe in
killing people without their express
wishes, allow laws that wouldeat away at
the sacredness of life
and the sanctity of marriage!! Oh boo
hoo!
Quote:
and their rights
could and may eventually constitute a
future where a certain group could
impliment its own idea of mercy...
But we dont care
right?
i'm just shaking my head at the
ridiculousness of that statement. It
is things like that which bring on the
salem witch hunts, the mccarthy trials,
and the cold war. Paranoia. A
nation under fear. Disgusting.
Quote:
well I do!
You see, people say I care only about the
fetus... Its so wrong
i am aginst abortion and euthiasia,
because I care about the future of
humanity...
humanity survived centuries with abortion
being legal, i'm sure it'll be just
fine.
Quote:
thats every
single human being after me... Not
the future of society, but the future of
the individual.. Thats the future, I
see... Thats the way forward.. I
dnt want the people of the future to
suffer terrible things... And that
more than anything is what brought me to
christianity...
of course it did. Christianity is a
perfect religion for terrified people.
Quote:
you see thats
what people dont seem to grasp with
christianity they think is only about
believing in jesus as the son of god but
its not... "i am the saviour of
the world" .. Big claim...
Look into it!
i did, all of my youth. I got over it
though.
Quote:
you see some
would say I am a christian because it
supports my concerns for the world...
it supoports your terrified state of mind
that doesn't see the light of the modern
world.
Quote:
but you see, I
look at jesus and his word and I can see
it is the real
truth...
in your contradictory bible and your mean,
mean god.
Quote:
people can only
see themselves, they see christianity as a
oppresion of their freedom.(freedom from
pregancy?)..
suppression of our natural sexuality and
thinking processes.
Quote:
freedom from
god... But anyone can see this
"freedom" means becoming slaves to
somthing darker.... Evil...
Manifest in human beings... The
killing of unborn human being, the "mercy
killing" of born human beings....
See the truth..... See the
reality....See the way - jesus christ, son
of god....Faith... Dosnt matter
how you get their, so long as you get
their!..... The bible, read it,
and...Think
this is the parts about you christians
that I hate. Your mumbo-jumbo, your
lies, your oppression and fear-mongering.
Your stories to righten little
children. It is taking an awful lot of
self control not to... Dammit, call
you all sorts of names, most of them along
the lines of ignorant and stupid. Why
is it that I was unhappy with my beliefs
as a christian, who went to church camps
and festivals etc... But then once I
renounced that faith and found my own, I
was suddenly so happy and content, and
could once again talk to god and not feel
like I was faking it?
Quote:
"blessed are you
who thirst and hunger for what is right,
you shall be filled... If you
look,and think.... Yours is the
kingdom of heaven .....Praise be to god
for giving me his grace and hopefully
through that, salvation.
By the way just out of curiosity is it
"modern" people who have
abortions?
people all over the world, first and third
world countries, have abortions.
Quote:
"modern"
is mercy killing
modern?
definately not.
Quote:
me... I
always liked christmas...I prefer
traditional
that has to do with mercy killings...
How?
|
Izzy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 883 Location: Earth
Posted: 01-29-06 11:13am
First of all, I would like to say thank
you for your response. I have a few
questions and a few statements
"i stated that I view born children as far
more important than adults."
what would you say it is about born
children that makes them "far more
important" than adults
why shouldnt your view about born
chiildren be advanced towards unborn
childern?
"it gives you even less right to tell me
whether or not to have an abortion,"
i am not telling you that you cant have an
abortion.. I am telling you it is wrong
to have an abortion.
"you do not have the right to force that
belief on any woman espcially being a
man."
but why do pro choicers have the rightto
force their beiefs on a whole nation?....
Especially being a woman.
"do you use the word “abort” to refer
to the death of a born person? "
you can if their death is premeture or
brought about by unnatural means.
"well, it is true that both car crashes
and illnesses are sometimes accidental...
And so too are pregnancies. You fix cars,
you cure illnesses... And women get
abortions to deal with accidental
pregnancies."
you fix cars... Can you forget about the
damn car... The car is not important...
Its the fact that the two year old caused
the car crash, that injured you... You
wouldnt kill that child even if you knew
she would cause the accident...So.... Why
do we kill kids who cause accidental
adverse effects to pregnant women?
"because they are born; they are wanted,
they are the next generation. That is why
we should protect children."
its not that they are vunrable and unable
to protect themselves... Its because they
are born... That dosnt even make sense in
my mind!
Its not that they are fellow human beings,
with their own diginity and identity...
Its because they are wanted... Thats a
very meterialistic way of looking at
children.. As if they are your
property.
"it isn't your duty"
i believe it is the duty of everyone in
socety to care for the needy, the vunrable
and those who cant look after themseleves,
I believe it is of most importance that
all people respect a fellow human beings
dignity and self identitiy.... Because
they are a fellow human being.
"i get it now... “will be capable” is
the important part of that, because that
is only the future. "
so the future dosnt matter... I will be
capable of curing aids in the future...
But because I am at this moment a fetus...
It dosnt matter... You can kill me.
Because I cant breath at this moment...
Its ok to kill me?
"previously, the coma patient was also
able to breath on his own. The fetus was
not."
what does previously have to do with now,
or the future?
"but he is born"
what is it about birth that makes someone
"worthy"
"it is the whole package."
kind of like a package holiday... What do
you mean.... The whole package!
"because they are born."
what is so special about the brithing
process, how does it change the human
beings value status?
"killing born children of any age, or
viable fetuses is bad in my opinion"
ah, sorry I didnt realise you were against
abortion after 22 weeks, my appologies....
Anyway what is it about a persons
capablities to survive outside the womb
that brings "value" to the unborn child?
Is it simply the ability to survive?
"because they love you, and they don't
want to see you suffering in a vegetative
state, wasting away for twenty years.
That might cause them severe emotional
pain, have you ever thought of that? Not
to mention financial strain. "
so their emotional pain gives them the
right to kill me against my express
wishes?
That is exactly what euthinasia is....
And it scares the hell out of me to grow
old in a world where my express wishes are
rejected because I have lost the ability
to defend my rights.
"oh, did you mean male and female fetuses?
Because I don't care about them. "
"i dont care about them".... So its ok to
kill them
black people "i dont care about them" so
its ok to kill them
jewish people "i dont care about them" so
its ok to kill them
you dont care, that is the top and bottom
of it, you dont care if they are living
human beings, you dont care if they live
or die, so long as the mother has the
right to decide for them.
"meaning born children, no it's not, as
i've said many times. But meaning
fetuses, yes it is fine."
because you dont care.
Why dont you care why do you care about a
specific section of human beings but
couldnt give a toss about another specific
section of human beings.
Is it their worth to you, that makes you
care about them... For example a born
human being can help you with learning a
different language, where a unborn human
being can not, does the human beings
ability or capabilities to improve your
life give them worth to you, therefore if
they are worth something to you, they
should be granted the right to life?
You see if it is, then, its no wonder your
pro choice, your whole concept of life and
the world around you, is geared towards
what the world can do for you... I am not
saying your bad for thinking that way, a
lot of people are looking to get what they
can, that is the kind of world where we
are heading and to a point live in now.
President kennedy said, dont ask what your
country can do for you, ask what you can
do for your country... If we dont care
about our country we arnt going to ask
what we can do for it and we arnt going to
defed it
but if we care about our country just
because of what is does for us... Then we
will defend it.
So if only view a human beings worth and
value according to our opinions about
their capabilities, to make us happy or
sad... Then of course, abortion would
mean, if pregnancy or having a child would
have an adverse effect on our happiness...
We would deem abortion to be fine... It
makes sense and if that is your out look
on life... Should I knock you for it...
No.
But you see as pro lifers we tend to view
a human beings worth and value on the fact
they are human beings... I do not believe
the government has the right to kill me
because I am a human being, and the right
to life has been granted to us by a power
higher than human beings.
I believe a human beings worth is accorded
them by god, that he wants them and I as a
human being must protect other vunrable
human beings.
By protecting the unborn child I am
protecting the worth of myself, the worth
of all humanity.. So from our world view
the protection of human life is more
important than the protection of personal
happiness.
A pro lifer or a christian who was unhappy
at being pregnant would not seek an
abortion, because they would believe as a
fellow human being, that unborn child has
as much right to life as they have.
So when we see others getting abortion we
see it as homicide because we do care
about all human beings, not just a certain
section of human beings.
"but I thought abort was interchangeable
with kill! And if it does mean to “end
prematurely, before fulfillment” then
technically the drivers were aborted,
since they never reached their
destination!"
"you're the one who says that you can
abort born people with guns etc. You
posted that, remember? "
the reason the drivers were aborted was
not because they failed to reach their
destination, but that their lives failed
to reach its natural conclusion, its
natural fulfilment, their life was ended
premetually...They were killed in a car
crath but their lives were aborted (cut
short, brought to an end) by a means
outside of natural death.
"from conception to natural death"
death by any means outside of natural
death from the moment of conception to
natural death is an abortion of human
life, sometimes it is accidental as in a
car crash, sometimes it is
puropseful as in the shooting of john f
kennedy or in the act of the medical
procedure known as abortion, just as if
george bush was shot we deem the
intentional killing of any human being as
homicide.
Accidents will happen, natural death will
happen, we can not make effective laws
against accidents or natural death... But
we can make effective laws against the
intentional killing of human beings.
"no, they're both polluting my air and i'd
shove the cigarettes down both of their
throats. "
against freedom of choice..To smoke eh?
But exactly both are just human beings
smoking tobbaco.
Both the gentleman and the thug, are both
drunk human beings
abortion is both the ending of a pregnancy
and the intentional killing of a human
being.
"i thought jesus was about love and peace,
and rebirth and forgiveness and that sort
of thing. "
he is, but your not.
"abortion causes the death of a fetus.
Everyone knows that, so because they know
that, you feel that it is the right thing
to focus your attacks upon? "
attacks... From your perspective, from
ours, its simply highlighting the facts...
You have to remember that, my intercourse
with you is not to bring about a change in
your beliefs... I hold no hope for
people, who dont care about other human
beings...... My intercourse with you is
to highlight the fact that abortion kills
another human being, so that others who
may read this can have a better
understanding of the nature of abortion so
that they can make a informed choice,
perhaps enccourage them to speak out, to
strenghen and in some way maybe inspire
greater efforts by other pro lifers and to
promote the gospel message of the sanctity
of life to those who have an infinity with
the sanctity of life, so that they can see
for themselves, what I believe to be the
only way forward...Christianity.
All this christ and religious stuff is not
for those of you who have a selfish
attitude towards life and your fellow
human beings, thts probably why you felt
more comfortable with your own made up
faith.. Christianity is primarly about
loving god and loving others, the whole of
christianity can be simply by those
acts... That is what it means to be a
christian...Its not for everybody...
Thats why when I speak about christ I do
so primarly for the pro life ears... Not
yours... I have no hope for the likes of
you, except my hope in christ touching
you.... It would take a miracle for you
to become christian..And/or pro life....
But I believe in miracles... I have seen
them in my own life.... So all is not
lost, you may meet christ or "know the
truth" some day.
"it seems so often that pro-life people
are not scientifically minded people, and
also being so into religion, the
pro-choicers often feel that you people
don't have our [i[own[/i] opinions about
things; and that you
