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Tingling And Stinging Sensations All Over (Page 2)

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July 5th, 2007
I experience similar symptoms. I get these "bumps" on my neck, chest, hands, forearms, tops of my feet, ankles and occasionally my back. I understand how uncomfortable the rash is. In my case its a burning sensation that itches. It flares up and "cools off" intermittently after exposure to the sun. Your situation sounds similar I have been diagnosed with Polymorphus Light Eruption. I went years without any reaction to the sun - Now I am sun sensitive in other ways too. Light reflecting off fog, and snow bothers my eyes tremedously - and I will even get the rash on my hands after driving...sunlight through the window affects it! If its PLE - I recommend Neutrogena sunscreen (lots of it) and a bottle of Hydrocortisone. It burns like crazy when you put it on but it offers relief at least temporairly. See your derm. and get it checked........best of luck to you.....let me know how it goes.
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replied August 10th, 2007
I'm a 34 yo male, and back in late 2003, early 2004, I started having these stinging sensations randomly all over my body, just as most of you have experienced. Nothing seemed connected ... I would feel them on ear lobes, face, scalp, toes, forearms, stomach, anywhere. Some months they would be real frequent, some I would barely notice. All I could find online kept leading me to MS. I was convinced it was early stages of MS. Everybody thought I was nuts, but I also had friends who's relatives started feeling these sensations and later were diagnosed with MS.

Then I saw an infomercial about home remedies. I checked the book at a bookstore and the first thing they listed as cause of MS symptoms was aspartame (Equal Articial Sweetener). I basically lived on that stuff. I sweetened everything with it, coffee, tea, oatmeal, etc. plus I would drink diet drinks contianing it. (I used 3 packets per cup of tea or coffee, and had at least 8-10 cups of decaf a day, plus all the food I ate that contained it.) I'm a carb watcher, so that's why I ingested a lot. Well, I figured I try and switch to another sweetener (I won't mention it so you don't think I'm trying to sell the stuff), and in 2 weeks it all stopped. I was elated. Then for 2 years I hadn't experienced this at all since making the switch.

All of the sudden earlier this week, it started again! And Exactly how I remember it. So now I'm dumbfounded. It looked like it clearly was the aspartame, and it could still have been that, but what are the chances that something else is causing the exact same feelings now? I admit, the more I worry about it and think about it, the more I experience these sensations, but I wasn't thinking about them when they first started this week.

So I'm at a loss once again. Anyone get any more resolution on this?
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replied August 10th, 2007
I Too Am Suffering All Over Body Tingle
kncballey wrote:
I'm a 34 yo male, and back in late 2003, early 2004, I started having these stinging sensations randomly all over my body, just as most of you have experienced. Nothing seemed connected ... I would feel them on ear lobes, face, scalp, toes, forearms, stomach, anywhere. Some months they would be real frequent, some I would barely notice. All I could find online kept leading me to MS. I was convinced it was early stages of MS. Everybody thought I was nuts, but I also had friends who's relatives started feeling these sensations and later were diagnosed with MS.

Then I saw an infomercial about home remedies. I checked the book at a bookstore and the first thing they listed as cause of MS symptoms was aspartame (Equal Articial Sweetener). I basically lived on that stuff. I sweetened everything with it, coffee, tea, oatmeal, etc. plus I would drink diet drinks contianing it. (I used 3 packets per cup of tea or coffee, and had at least 8-10 cups of decaf a day, plus all the food I ate that contained it.) I'm a carb watcher, so that's why I ingested a lot. Well, I figured I try and switch to another sweetener (I won't mention it so you don't think I'm trying to sell the stuff), and in 2 weeks it all stopped. I was elated. Then for 2 years I hadn't experienced this at all since making the switch.

All of the sudden earlier this week, it started again! And Exactly how I remember it. So now I'm dumbfounded. It looked like it clearly was the aspartame, and it could still have been that, but what are the chances that something else is causing the exact same feelings now? I admit, the more I worry about it and think about it, the more I experience these sensations, but I wasn't thinking about them when they first started this week.

So I'm at a loss once again. Anyone get any more resolution on this?


I am a 40 yr old female in good health that began getting an all over pimple looking body rash afer laying out in the sun. I never had this problem before. The pimply rash didnt itch or caues any discomfort. It began going away on its own. Then very shortly after I began getting a horrible all over body tingle/itch that was insanely unbearable when I went to bed at night. I couldnt even fall asleep it was so horrible. I went to MD a dermatologist and he gave me prednisone tablets, I coulnt tollerate them so he ordered blood work to make sure I was ok on the inside, and everything came back normal. He then didnt know what to do for me so he treated me for scabies. That treatment consisted of a cream I applied to my entire body a week apart. I waited four weeks after last application to contact dermatologist becaues the body tingle was still there! It is mostly in my feet now, not altogether but mostly. The dermatologist washed his hands of me and sent me back to the MD who also dosent know what is wrong with me. I dont know what to do! Can anyone help?
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replied September 24th, 2007
Something of Interest
You need to google CANDIDA SYMPTOMS.
This may be a help to you.
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replied October 10th, 2007
Oh!!!
Holy Jeebus I can't believe what I'm reading!!!
Just over a month ago my 6 year old boy started to get these red splotches around his face and neck. He said he was itching, and everywhere he scratched he got and angry red mark that would last for around 30 min. We thought he was having a reaction to Augmentin, but after having gotten it out of his system the redness was still happening off and on.
Two weeks after his first outbreak it started happening with me too!!! I am experiencing severe stinging sensations all over my body. Here and there, comes and goes. Exactly what has been described here. In addition to the red splotches that itch and sting we have red spotty itching rashes that come and go, and turn into swollen hives when scratched. We've both been given Zyrytec, and given a general "I have no idea, wait it out" type of feedback. The Zyrtec helps, but does not eradicate the symptoms completely. In addition to all this my son continues to run a low grade fever off and on, and we have both been very susceptible to colds etc. where we were both very healthy individuals before all this began. The doctors are pretty much WORTHLESS, and have said everything from it being induced by a virus that has to run it's course to our symptoms being unrelated. Mine are due to stress, and his to allergies..... even though they are identical. Stupid right? I have run the gammit of things we could be allergic to, and to no avail. Any virus should have been long gone by now. After countless hours googling, I think we may have found out that we have parasites!! I asked the dr. to run tests on us, and we are awaiting the results. When I was collecting specimen from my son for the tests I am 90% sure I saw parasites! OMG right?? I am horrified. Tomorrow AM we should have a definitive answer on that, and I am hoping it will end our nightmare... or at least put us on the right track toward recovery. If not then..... I don't know how much more I can take of this so you can only imagine what my 6 yr. old is going through. Sad If anyone has any feedback, or advice PLEASE let me know.
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replied October 27th, 2007
Re: Oh!!!
dclookingforhelp wrote:
Holy Jeebus I can't believe what I'm reading!!!
Just over a month ago my 6 year old boy started to get these red splotches around his face and neck. He said he was itching, and everywhere he scratched he got and angry red mark that would last for around 30 min. We thought he was having a reaction to Augmentin, but after having gotten it out of his system the redness was still happening off and on.
Two weeks after his first outbreak it started happening with me too!!! I am experiencing severe stinging sensations all over my body. Here and there, comes and goes. Exactly what has been described here. In addition to the red splotches that itch and sting we have red spotty itching rashes that come and go, and turn into swollen hives when scratched. We've both been given Zyrytec, and given a general "I have no idea, wait it out" type of feedback. The Zyrtec helps, but does not eradicate the symptoms completely. In addition to all this my son continues to run a low grade fever off and on, and we have both been very susceptible to colds etc. where we were both very healthy individuals before all this began. The doctors are pretty much WORTHLESS, and have said everything from it being induced by a virus that has to run it's course to our symptoms being unrelated. Mine are due to stress, and his to allergies..... even though they are identical. Stupid right? I have run the gammit of things we could be allergic to, and to no avail. Any virus should have been long gone by now. After countless hours googling, I think we may have found out that we have parasites!! I asked the dr. to run tests on us, and we are awaiting the results. When I was collecting specimen from my son for the tests I am 90% sure I saw parasites! OMG right?? I am horrified. Tomorrow AM we should have a definitive answer on that, and I am hoping it will end our nightmare... or at least put us on the right track toward recovery. If not then..... I don't know how much more I can take of this so you can only imagine what my 6 yr. old is going through. Sad If anyone has any feedback, or advice PLEASE let me know.



To dclookingforhelp:
What you and your son are describing sounds like it could be Fifth Disease, or "Slapped Cheek" disease. It's highly contagious, but not serious. It displays as red blotchy skin on the chest, abdomen, face, buttocks, and sometimes thighs and forearms. It's accompanied by a low-grade temperature. Children are highly susceptible, but adults can get it too. Ask your doctor to examine for this childhood illness.

To everyone else:
As for the other symptoms everyone describes, I have had those too. It feels like out of the blue, some enormous mosquito just nailed me in one spot only, sometimes the same spot over and over again for several minutes. Other times, it feels like it's a smaller mosquito that bites me here, then there, and again and again all in random spots. I can't explain those symptoms. I can explain the tingly itchy sensation I have on certain areas of my body, it's dry skin. It can happen in both summer and winter, depending on how often you bathe, how much you perspire, your soap, shampoo, and laundry detergent can all contribute to the irritation as your skin is much more sensitive.

I also have other symptoms, such as random muscle twitches. Most muscle twitches are in my limbs, and happen as I try to fall asleep. Sometimes, the twitches are so severe that I get intense muscle cramps in my arms or legs. Sometimes my legs twitch so much it's more like a thrashing, and I wonder if I have RLS (restless leg syndrome).

But I realized something. All of my symptoms are direcly related to how much sleep I get, and how much stress and anxiety I'm experiencing, and how much sugar and salt intake I have. If I sleep more, and relax more, I will be symptom free for days. When I begin to have symptoms again, I make great efforts to relax, become calm, and go to bed earlier, and reduce sugar/salt, because the combination of those two retains water and causes swelling in the soft tissues like your skin. When your skin expands, it stretches and pulls, causing tingly/burning sensations especially if it's even only slightly dry.

I realize it's a simple answer, but it works like magic for me. Perhaps you can try it and see if it does for you too.
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replied November 15th, 2007
I Think I'm Experiencing the Same Thing
i'm a 20 yr old female and i just started experiencing that pin-pricking feeling on my legs right now, like a bunch of fire ants were in my shorts biting me, or like i had a bunch of stickers in my shorts (sharp litle weed type things)

<img src="http://www.seetheusabyjeep.com/assets /images/Thumb_grass_burr.jpg">

(the thing on the guy's thumb is a sticker)

anyway, i just got home and into my room from being outside in the cold when i started experiencing this. i don't think i'm a hypochondriac, and i wasn't exercising or anything before i started experiencing this. i just drove to my friend's house to pick something up (wearing basketball shorts and a sweater in 60 degree weather (cold for south tx)), then went inside my house. as soon as i got inside my room, i started feeling like fire ants were biting me or i had stickers in my shorts. it's fine right now while i'm sitting..but when i touch my thigh or somewhere on my legs, i start to feel that pricking feeling >_<
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replied January 6th, 2008
I too suffer this, seemingly in a mild form; after I play rugby, I usually have an intense, itchy and unpleasant prickly sensation all over my body. I used to have a cool shower, but just grin and bare it nowadays.
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replied March 13th, 2008
It might be scabies
I started have this sensation when I stayed in Old Faithful Inn hotel on 9/6/07. We found some red rashes on our skin after we came back, doctor said that we contract scabies. The red rashes were gone after we apply some cream, but the stinging sensation still existing especially when I am near my computers, in my car. I found some very tiny white dust on my black keyboard. I put them under microscope and found some creature I don't know. I blow them away with air duster, they keeping come back. I hope someone can help find out what they are.
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replied May 19th, 2008
tingling itching skin
hi - i couldn't help but share my experience with everyone here. This is my first time joining a forum. I am 26 female also experiencing tingling and then itching skin sensation. it started about a week ago on and off and last night i felt it again. first i feel tingling and then itching all over my body i actually had trouble sleeping last night was very scared and worried. through out all the night i felt it all over my body i do not have any scaling or red spots just that feeling. I noticed when i am busy or doing something i do not feel that itching. i am a bit stressed out lately maybe a bit anxious too and i have not been drinking a lot water. I guess i just have to pay my doctor a visit who thinks that i am obsessed with my self because every few weeks or 1 month i go to her for full blood work just to make sure every thing is ok and so far i have not had a problem. i also want to share that i recently discovered ants in my kitchen the harmless kind and since then i started to feel that sensation again and i am not sure if it is related or not or if it is just my fear. i don't think i have hypochondria because it is so real what i feel.
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replied June 25th, 2008
Stinging sensation
Hi, 23 year old male. I've had what most of you are describing for the past 5, 6 years now.

As I describe it, it's like someone taking a very fine pin and randomly jotting places on your body. I used to feel it all over, but over the years it has centered on my back, scalp, and arms.

To the poster who supposed that this sensation had something to do with heat, I know exactly what you mean. Anything that gets you flustered triggers it; working out, lifting, doing dishes quickly, hot weather, going from outside cold (I'm in Canada here) into a heated room, anything that would normally begin a light sweat instead manifests as this stinging.


The first time I had a full blown incident of this was when I went into a sauna about 5 years ago. I was not in there but for 10 seconds before my WHOLE body just exploded with the stinging sensation. However, as soon as I exited into the cool room, it left IMMEDIATELY followed by goosebumps. Fortunately, I don't get the rash effect some of you are communicating. I can literally stare at a spot that's stinging and it looks like nothing is happening. No rash, bumps, anything. I will say however, that my skin becomes really sensitive, as in I don't have to scratch, but simply rub a line across my chest and I'll see a red streak appear.

I've gone to the Dr. and he's suggested allergy tablets, an acid based solution for my scalp, and seeing a therapist about depression (which I know I didn't have) and stress (which I have little of) and nothing has worked.

To the poster (might be the one who related heat as a cause) who says they're going to go balls-out and try and "overload" or see if they can work past the stinging... good luck.

I used to think the stinging had something to do with not being able to sweat and so I tried going for a run... for an hour...and I promised myself I wouldn't itch one scratch, not one. During the time it took to start really sweating it was hell. Stinging everywhere on my back and lower neck; I almost vomited twice. However, I did get a good, healthy sweat going and the stinging lessened now that my pores were open. There were still occasional stings though and after I finished the run my whole back felt like it was lightly...I wouldn't say stinging... but it didn't feel normal...like a mild burning. I took a cold shower and still had the mild burning on my back. It wasn't bad enough to scratch or really annoy, but it wasn't a neutral feeling. It went away gradually.

I've read what everyone has typed here, and I'm planning to go to the doctor with new possible causes.

To the poster who suggested we check for diabetes, you might be on to something. During the last week I had, what I think, was a diabetic episode. Dizzy, fatigued, lower back uncomfortable, feelings of vomiting, headaches, eating more and more, and probably most telling was my mouth and tongue being extremely dry, but no amount of water would help; the water just passed right through. My body not holding the water, led my skin to just feel all the more dryer and the stinging on my back and scalp has become more frequent. As I sit and type here now, my tongue is extremely dry. I've been drinking water (two bottles alway near me) throughout the day, but I haven't had anything to eat in 3 hours. The diabetes check sounds more and more probable.

Sorry if this was a long post, but whatever this is has affected my life drastically over these 5 years. I've had to become more mild, less active, and have had to make the excuse of being tired all the time(which I've now become notoriously known for among my friends as being) as a reason for not doing the simple things in life; Days at the park playing a sport, going to the beach on humid days and all the active things 18-23 year olds should be doing.

If I do get this sorted out, I'll remember to post back here. I hope you all do as well.

Take it easy.
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replied July 17th, 2008
i get stinging sensation on my body
i am 27 year old male
so for from the last 3 months or so i've had on and off tingling and stinging sensations all over my body. I'll feel a little prick or sting somewhere on my body and it will go away after a second or two, then i'll feel it somewhere else.
Please help...What is this? I'm scared as to what it is and why it is happening? is is serious or what? is it a horrible disease? Is this a symptom for any disease?
As i have seen other replies, i am gessing that this could be because of anxiety, depression, tension, stress? is is correct or not i dont know. If somebody can help me please let me know.
I feel this because from past few months i was worried, tensed and a bit depressed on some issues. But it is not extreme. i feel normally at sometimes people would feel a bit tensed but does everyone feel this stinging sensation?

I had seen "dklcn's reply" posted on: 03-29-05 13:15pm. My case is somewhat very similar to his case.
http://www.ehealthforum.com/health/topic32 323.html

This is a very bothersome condition...Like you have invisible insects on you stinging you at different locations at all times. Could it be because of skin infection?

if anyone have come across any solution or treatment or same kind of problem pls let me know. Especially "dklcn", pls let me know if u have any suggestions.
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replied August 4th, 2008
burning, itching, muscle twitches
Just a heads up to some of you who may be on anti-depressants (SSRI's). Those have this "itching/burning sking thing" as a side effect. My husband thought he had lymphoma and thought he was going crazy with the itching and burning feeling. Once I did some research, I found out that the Celexa he was put on along with many other anti's have this side effect. (flushing) So, if you're on one, check the dosage or get on something else, you're not crazy. Also, for the guy who has the acid reflux...If you're on prevacid or other drugs like it. This can also be a side effect from those. Hope this helps. My husband just needed a change of meds. I think some of you might be on medications that need to be looked for side effects. There are alot of others that can replace them or the dosages can be changed. Hope this helps someone.
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replied August 4th, 2008
Burning and tingling sensation ...you're not crazy
Just a heads up for those you experiening a burning and tingling sensation. If you're on an antidepressant (SSRI), you might want to check out the side effects. They can have a nasty side effect like this that will make you think you're crazy! My husband recently started taking Celexa and had burning and tingling sensations that drove him out of his mind. He thought he had lymphoma (also has itching symptoms) and you can imagine the anxiety. I started researching his meds and pinpointed it to Celexa. Other culprits can be Zoloft, Paxil and there are more. It just depends on the person. I personally never had a side effect like this when I took zoloft. See your Dr. and get on something different or have your dosage adjusted. Also a heads up to the guy who has acid reflux. If you're on the drug prevacid or others like it..this too causes the itching and burning sensation. My hubby was on that as well. Get off it. Hope this helps someone out there.
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replied August 27th, 2008
same exact symptoms
I'm a 40 year old male with these same symptoms. Not a hypo and not on antidepressants. I have the little pin-prick sensations randomly over my whole body with a frequency of dozens per hour. Accompanying the onset of these sensations are tiny red dots on my skin which are not raised and not itchy as well as several larger red splotchs which are raised slighly and are more stinging/itchy. The tiny red dots look similar to age spots but are red. I also have a general warm sensation and my palms and feet get sweaty. This is all with in the last week.

It is definitely not cholinergic urticaria as the dots are not raised.

Has anyone found any additional info? I assume not but thought I would add my experience in case it can help in figuring this out.
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replied November 16th, 2008
Interesting... well there seems to be 2 different types of itching symptoms presented here: 1) Localized w/ burning and non-raised red marks 2) All over tingling w/out any visible marks or other sensation.

I first experienced full body hallucinogenic itching the night of Dec 2nd 2007, and described it at the time as "kind of like the feeling you get when a tick is walking on you and hits a hair... you feel it, it tingles, it kinda itches, but this happens continually all over space and time like some grotesque symphony of unpleasantness. It's also a LOT stronger, and the individual sensations rise and fade more drastically like a pinprick would". No visible marks of any kind unless I scratch hard (rarely have to), which only produces characteristic histamine streaks.

I always describe it as psychological/neurological in nature, because though it feels incredibly real, it's not, and I know what REAL insects and dry/itchy skin feels like; it's similar, but somehow uniquely different. It's always the worst at night (when my mind is most able to focus on it probably), sometimes is present during the day/activity, sometimes not. It occurs everywhere on my body, even places w/out hair (eyelids, palms, feet soles... though noticeably less often)

It's incredibly annoying as stated, for me it went away some time March 2008, resurfaced mildly on occasion throughout the summer, and now mid-November 2008 is back in full swing.

How freakish is this? And this 3 year old thread, no one has answers, very frustrating.

In any case, to add to the wealth of knowledge here: I am a 25 white male living in Missouri, I've tried to correlate the symptoms with a whole mess of things including:
- Artificial Sweeteners (Ace K, Sucralose, Saccharin, Aspartame)
- Zoloft (had some leftover pills)
- Heating and Cooling Systems/Outside Temperature
- Sodium Intake*
- Vitamin Intake (Iron, A, B's, C, D, E, K, Minerals)
- General Diet (High/Low Carb, Protein, 40/30/30, High/Low Calorie)
- Fresh Breath Mints
- Exercise
- Sleep
- Anxiety/Stress Levels*
- Soap/Moisturizer
- Anti-Histamines

A step change in each of these environmental factors produces absolutely no (reproducable) short-term change in the intensity/duration of the tingling, it appears to come and go over the short and long term as it wishes.

Doc says everything's in working order, nothing on blood work or scans, only pre-hypertensive blood pressure.

I experience non-painful muscle spasms, however I'm pretty sure this is normal for most people (especially as you are falling asleep) the difference I believe is that since we are so preoccupied with our freakish skin sensations we notice it way more than a normal person would. I'm not a hypochondriac at all, I do have a history of depression, no/little anxiety though.

Aside from Zoloft (which I have been off of for years and didn't have THIS problem while on...), the only other drugs I've ever taken in my life are Accutane and various 'cillin anti-biotics.

Goodness I hope someone figures this out, I know I'm trying to and if I ever do I'll come back and post here, there really isn't much on the web about this.

*From a very qualitative standpoint, lots of sodium seems to make the sensations stronger. However, it doesn't seem to effect whether they are there in the first place (I've eaten <500mg/day for 14 days... it doesn't go away); high sodium does raise my blood pressure and make me lightheaded, a state which is similar to an anxious state, where-in I also notice the sensations are stronger but it's too subtle to really attribute anything to. And again, the sensations are still there outside that state.
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replied November 17th, 2008
Hello,

I am surprised to read so many replies from people that seem to have the same thing I am suffering with. I have been suffering with this horrible stinging and itching sensation for about 3 years now. I cannot even do everday regular things because of this, The only way I can describe how I feel is to say that I feel like I am being stung by bees all over my body at one time. It happens on my back, chest, legs, stomach and pretty much everywhere else.

What seems to cause it is heat and stress. I cannont handle the least bit of heat. I have to carry around a cold bottle of water to pour on myself when I begin to sting. It seems to help, And I also have to have a fan on me when I am at home.

I frequently have to keep from doing things outside and anything physical. I always have to leave stores and places because I begin stinging and itching so badly I cannot keep a straight face. The sting is very painful and irritating. I do have alot of anxiety, I have told my doctor about this and they usually have no clue what to tell me. I have recently been diagnosed with Graves Disease, A hypothyroid disorder. But my doctor says that they haven't heard of this being a symptom of hypothyroidism.

I also get very red on my chest and stomach when I sting and itch.

Please, Can someone help me figure out what this may be? I am tired of avoiding everday activity because of this condition.
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replied January 29th, 2009
stinging pains all over my body
Hi. I had the exact same symptoms for the last 10 years off and on. All the sudden the symptoms will completely dissapear for 6 months. However, I have found that I usually get them when I have broken sleep for a few nights straight. I get stinging pains all over my body and anything the squeezes my skin hurts really bad for example when I tie my shoes tight, the skin on the top of my feet hurts bad with stinging. I went to ~20 doctors 10 years ago and nobody and I mean none of them could figure it out and started saying: "You might have Lupus, you might have MS", etc.... I had brain scans (MRIs) and every other kind of test. I tried to see if I was eating something different etc... I found that if you get your wife (or husband) to massage your legs, arms etc... it really helps for a little while. This seems to work. Anyway, I am on today because they pains just came back yesterday so I figured I would look to see if anyone else experiences the same problems. What might make you feel better is to know that I don't take anything and it usually goes away after some time. I'll never understand what it is, but it seems to me like some kind of nerve sensitivity or something. It has to be the nerve endings that are causing it or in the hair follicles or something. It is at the skin level. I get no red marks or anything on my body. Just stinging (pin pricks sting pain) feelings all over. No numbness. I gave up on the doctors when they stopped calling me back because they probably thought it was in my mind. At least it goes away for long periods of time for me, but comes back a couple times a year.
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replied February 12th, 2009
tingling
doN go
for the past week I have started having this prickling feeling as well. I also started working and going to school fulltime and have broken my sleep. I am starting to think that this may be the cause because I did not have this problem last week when I was just going to school and got plenty of sleep
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replied March 22nd, 2009
wow
Well, I am having the stinging/biting with no bugs as well. I really thought it was fleas because I have cats...so a few months ago, when it just went away, I figured I got rid of the flees. Well, now it is back. I have issues with depression and take a few anti-depressants now. I am glad I am not crazy and there aren't fleas all over me, but I am dishearten that doctors don't seem to have a diagnosis or treatment. Well, I hope we figure this out some day...
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