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Physical Health Risks of Termination

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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 11:55am

How can the death penalty be against your religion yet abortion not.You claim to be a christian yet disobey the second commandments in the didache
the second commandment: grave sin forbidden. And the second commandment of the teaching; you shall not commit homicide, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not homicide a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

I do believe your own faith classes it as homicide should I call you pro death,next time you start with the anti choice then I will start with the pro death.Your narrow minded and stereotypical view of anyone who dont agree with you is duly noted.I like your generalization of prolifers,that none of them have any chance of understanding anything and all prochoicers would be of the same mindset as you.Your attempt at trying to imply that again I have said something I havent it really is getting boring steen.
I never said anything about if the law is broken then they shouldnt recieve medical help,are you delibratly missing the point or are you unable to grasp the simplelist of points you continuasly read into my post things that are not there
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msrosie

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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: 01-27-05 11:56am

kourtney08 wrote:

and I don't think suicide is legal, or illegal. I mean, what are they gonna do if someone kills themself? Send them to jail because its illegal? :roll: please. I know if you attempt suicide, then you are sentenced to spend time in a psychiatric place.

you are not "sentenced", you are admitted involuntarily, because you are a danger to yourself. You can be committed involuntarily for 1. Being a danger to yourself, 2. Being a danger to others or 3. Being unable to take care of yourself.

Rosie
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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 12:08pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
steen please show me where I said that any surgery should not be performed.
Quote:
you have made implications about the validity of medical treatment based on risks. Yes, as I questioned earlier, I am not sure you really want to go here. You seem woefully unprepared for the issues in that discussion. Go read up on the oregon helth plan and the bitter debates that erupted over that.

no steen I did not imply anything so that is a lie a downright false hood,you tried to imply that I had said something I had not.


So an apology will be required before we commence battle again

http://e healthforum.Com/health/viewtopic.Php?T=296 05&postdays=0&postorder=asc&st art=5
Quote:
Quote:
bd1012 wrote:
yeah, there are health risks to open heart surgery, should we ban that too? Everything has it's risks and so does pregnancy so that's why no one should be forced to do either against their will.. Glad we cleared that up.

Do you really believe that open heart surgery and abortion are even close,if you do not have open heart surgery you most probably die,are you trying to say that if you dont have an abortion you will most probably die?If that was the case shouldnt pregnancy be banned?
< span class="postbody">
here you tried to set up a risk gradien, implying that risks should be used to consider banning certaint procedures while also trying to make such a differentiation between abortion and open heart surgery.



Well, I just showed where you indeed did make such an implication, so unless you can explain that away, I see no need to apologize for a direct observation. If you can't stand by your own word, what good is it to discuss with you?


Quote:
and for the racist comment against the british people.
pointing out that british soldiers in belfast indeed have killed children with rubber bullets is a fact, a direct observation, not a racist comment. What a nutty claim. Yes, I said it in a harsh way to megamoron who had more than warranted a harsh reply. So what?


Quote:
i will answer the rest of your posts then please do not post to me untill you have apologized for the lies.
as there were no lies, I can only conclude that you are getting out of your dept in our argument and seek the cowards retreat with a silly reply shouted over your shoulder. Like the kid who got insulted about not being picked first and takes his ball and goes home. How lame and pathetic.




right I have had enough of you mr hypocrite,i am british and it was racially offensive I think you are out of your depth here pal because it is clear you do not understand the racism laws.I see you are not pulling bd about gradient of risk and she was the one that tried to set it up as you have shown everyone else thankyou.You also use medline to back up your claims but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.So that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.


You have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
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msrosie

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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: 01-27-05 12:34pm

Here in canada, the complication rate is far lower than 10%. See chart:

http://www.Msro sie.Com/images/medprocpercent.Gif

and the mortality is far lower than that of other procedures, including childbirth:

http://www.Msros ie.Com/images/medprocmortal.Gif


it's my understanding that bariatric surgery (weight loss surgery) has a death rate of 1 in 200 - much, much higher than that of legal abortion. Shall we campaign to outlaw it?


Rosie
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steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-27-05 12:38pm

foreverblue wrote:
how can the death penalty be against your religion yet abortion not.
oh, so now we are down to "your christianity is not a real christianity. Yup, you are truly doing great here.
Quote:
you claim to be a christian yet disobey the second commandments in the didache
sorry, I read the bible, not the didache.
Quote:
the second commandment: grave sin forbidden.
but then, abortion is not a sin.
Quote:
and the second commandment of the teaching; ........
and so on and so on endlessly. I am not sure where you get that from, but it is not from the bible. So what do I care.
Quote:
i do believe your own faith classes it as homicide
nope. Your ignorance of my faith doesn't make your misimpression into reality.
Quote:
ishould I call you pro death,
i am not. I don't favor death. So you have now resorted to the usual antichoice babble and stupid nonsense. Oh, this is deteriorating even faster than I had expected, even though you are a prolifer.
Quote:
next time you start with the anti choice then I will start with the pro death.
well, have at it. If you want to be stupid, who am I to stop you. You already showed your lack of desire for serious discussion, resorting to stupid nonsense when your postulated views were challenged, so I am not sure much is lost ny you resorting to the usual antichoice chicanery.
Quote:
your narrow minded and stereotypical view of anyone who dont agree with you is duly noted.
ah, a prolifer talking to the mirror. Yes, we see that a lot as well.
Quote:
i like your generalization of prolifers,that none of them have any chance of understanding anything and all prochoicers would be of the same mindset as you.Your attempt at trying to imply that again I have said something I havent it really is getting boring steen.
what did I imply?
Quote:
i never said anything about if the law is broken then they shouldnt recieve medical help,are you delibratly missing the point or are you unable to grasp the simplelist of points you continuasly read into my post things that are not there
you were trying to insinuate that I should have the utmost care for them as a patient if they broke that alw. As I said, you simply don't have the mindset of a physician, so you won't understand this at all. I already once suggested that you drop it, and it seems that I need to suggest that to you again.
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foreverblue

Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 12:38pm

msrosie wrote:
here in canada, the complication rate is far lower than 10%. See chart:

http://www.Msro sie.Com/images/medprocpercent.Gif

and the mortality is far lower than that of other procedures, including childbirth:

http://www.Msros ie.Com/images/medprocmortal.Gif


it's my understanding that bariatric surgery (weight loss surgery) has a death rate of 1 in 200 - much, much higher than that of legal abortion. Shall we campaign to outlaw it?



Rosie

sorry but as prochoicers like to say that site is biased,end of story.

I believe that any surgery that is not medically required should not be performed,this includes those to posh to push c sections that all the rich and famouse have.
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steen

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Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-27-05 12:45pm

foreverblue wrote:
you also use medline to back up your claims
yes, medline is the reference source for medical, scientific journal publications. That is where the science and the research is reported. That is a valid, scientific source.
Quote:
but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,
i am saying that it is not the dictionary standard for the medical profession as it is not scientifically vetted. That is why stedman's medical dictionary is the authority. Because its definitions are guaranteed to be medically accurate. Because it is scientifically correct.
Quote:
well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.
it uses stedman's medical dictionary. Why are you lying?
Quote:
so that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.
ah, so your lies makes me a hypocrite?
Quote:
you have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,
not at all. I just showed where you did so.
Quote:
bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
nope, I am not saying anything to her because she didn't try to imply some stupid idea such as that only some procedures are valid. I am not objecting to th medical gradient. I am onjecting to the medical gradient applied in a form to somehow speaking out agianst abortion. Thus, you used it in an invalid form, while bd didn't.
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steen

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Posted: 01-27-05 12:48pm

foreverblue wrote:
i believe that any surgery that is not medically required should not be performed,this includes those to posh to push c sections that all the rich and famouse have.
and who makes the determination about what is 'required" prolifers? Or is it better that such decisions are done by the physicians, those who actually know what is going on? Well, guess what, it is already doctors who make that decision. As such, you can just butt out. Unless, that is, you can show that you know better than the medical professionals. Which sofar you have failed abysmally to do.
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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 12:52pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
how can the death penalty be against your religion yet abortion not.
oh, so now we are down to "your christianity is not a real christianity. Yup, you are truly doing great here.

Quote:
you claim to be a christian yet disobey the second commandments in the didache
sorry, I read the bible, not the didache.

Quote:
the second commandment: grave sin forbidden.
but then, abortion is not a sin.

[.

Quote:
ishould I call you pro death,
i am not. I don't favor death. So you have now resorted to the usual antichoice babble and stupid nonsense. Oh, this is deteriorating even faster than I had expected, even though you are a prolifer.

Quote:
next time you start with the anti choice then I will start with the pro death.
well, have at it. If you want to be stupid, who am I to stop you. You already showed your lack of desire for serious discussion, resorting to stupid nonsense when your postulated views were challenged, so I am not sure much is lost ny you resorting to the usual antichoice chicanery.



Quote:
i like your generalization of prolifers,that none of them have any chance of understanding anything and all prochoicers would be of the same mindset as you.Your attempt at trying to imply that again I have said something I havent it really is getting boring steen.
what did I imply?






Answer the whole post pal because your childish attempts at deception is obvious to everyone,i was simply pointing out that there are risks to everything,you were the one that degenerated this to the level you are used to because that is all you can do steen is try and cause arguments,




Quote:
your narrow minded and stereotypical view of anyone who dont agree with you is duly noted.
ah, a prolifer talking to the mirror. Yes, we see that a lot as well.


So your hypocrisy knows no bounds then steen as you said that about me did you not or are you going to deny that.



Quote] and the second commandment of the teaching; ........
and so on and so on endlessly. I am not sure where you get that from, but it is not from the bible. So what do I care.
Quote:
i do believe your own faith classes it as homicide
nope. Your ignorance of my faith doesn't make your misimpression into reality



your a christian therefore the didache {christian teachings}state you shall not cause a child to be m.U.R.D.E.Red by abortion.So are you a christian or not.




Quote:
i never said anything about if the law is broken then they shouldnt recieve medical help,are you delibratly missing the point or are you unable to grasp the simplelist of points you continuasly read into my post things that are not there
you were trying to insinuate that I should have the utmost care for them as a patient if they broke that alw. As I said, you simply don't have the mindset of a physician, so you won't understand this at all. I already once suggested that you drop it, and it seems that I need to suggest that to you again.[/quote]


i never insinuated anything you chose to read into my post what would fit your ideas of prolifers.
And yes I can understand that you will have a different point of view because of your training,but im not a doctor so your point to this inane comment
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steen

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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Upper Midwest

Posted: 01-27-05 13:29pm

foreverblue wrote:
answer the whole post
really? What significant part did I miss?
Quote:
and the second commandment of the teaching; ........
Quote:
and so on and so on endlessly. I am not sure where you get that from, but it is not from the bible. So what do I care.
i do believe your own faith classes it as homicide
Quote:
nope. Your ignorance of my faith doesn't make your misimpression into reality
your a christian therefore the didache {christian teachings}state you shall not cause a child to be m.U.R.D.E.Red by abortion.
as this "didache" you are talking about has never showed up anywhere else that I have ever seen, I can only conclude that your claim is false. Obviously this "didache" does not define christianity. Rather, the bible does. I suspect that it might hold some significance within your particular brand of christianity, but your generalization obviously is seriously off-base.
Quote:
so are you a christian or not.
yes, I am. And no, I read the bible, not this "didcahe" you are talking about? What particular church does that come from?
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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 15:12pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
answer the whole post
really? What significant part did I miss?
as this "didache" you are talking about has never showed up anywhere else that I have ever seen, I can only conclude that your claim is false. Obviously this "didache" does not define christianity. Rather, the bible does. I suspect that it might hold some significance within your particular brand of christianity, but your generalization obviously is seriously off-base.

Quote:
so are you a christian or not.
yes, I am. And no, I read the bible, not this "didcahe" you are talking about? What particular church does that come from?[/quote]




www.Earlychristianwritings .Com/didache.Html
open your eyes
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steen

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Posted: 01-27-05 15:18pm

foreverblue wrote:
www.Earlychristianwritings.C om/didache.Html
open your eyes
that still isn't the bible. So please sow where it defines christians.
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FISHX

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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 920
Location: UK

Posted: 01-27-05 15:20pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
www.Earlychristianwritings.C om/didache.Html
open your eyes
that still isn't the bible. So please sow where it defines christians.


early christian writings I think the name of the link says it all.
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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 15:22pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
you also use medline to back up your claims
yes, medline is the reference source for medical, scientific journal publications. That is where the science and the research is reported. That is a valid, scientific source.

Quote:
but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,
i am saying that it is not the dictionary standard for the medical profession as it is not scientifically vetted. That is why stedman's medical dictionary is the authority. Because its definitions are guaranteed to be medically accurate. Because it is scientifically correct.

Quote:
well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.
it uses stedman's medical dictionary. Why are you lying?

Quote:
so that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.
ah, so your lies makes me a hypocrite?

Quote:
you have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,
not at all. I just showed where you did so.

Quote:
bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
nope, I am not saying anything to her because she didn't try to imply some stupid idea such as that only some procedures are valid. I am not objecting to th medical gradient. I am onjecting to the medical gradient applied in a form to somehow speaking out agianst abortion. Thus, you used it in an invalid form, while bd didn't.






right liar lets get this straight you are a liar do you understand
http://w ww.Nlm.Nih.Gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary .Html
go there everyone this will prove steen is a liar they use merriam websters you lying hypocrite.



You must be stupid or ignorant not to see the point steen you will insist on proving my points for me you are a hypocrite,as for racism laws im in england so try our laws you lying racist,
i have proved you a liar again now why dont you give up,once again you try to attribute to me something that isnt there just how stupid are you.
Now that I have proved you a liar again are you going to stop lying and be honest,if there is no reason to argue with someone steen dont twist a post so you can have a reason
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steen

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Posted: 01-27-05 15:25pm

fishx wrote:
steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
www.Earlychristianwritings.C om/didache.Html
open your eyes
that still isn't the bible. So please sow where it defines christians.
early christian writings I think the name of the link says it all.
really? Some early christian writings are known as the gnostic bible. Are you saying then, that everything in the gnostic bible is defining christianity? What is it that makes you define something else than the bible as defining for christians?

Hmm, is it that kind of tools you use to defend the nonsense about god speaking out against abortion when it isn't even mentioned in the bible? That would be quite dishonest if that's what you guys are doing.
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FISHX

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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 920
Location: UK

Posted: 01-27-05 15:28pm

foreverblue wrote:
steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
you also use medline to back up your claims
yes, medline is the reference source for medical, scientific journal publications. That is where the science and the research is reported. That is a valid, scientific source.


Quote:
but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,
i am saying that it is not the dictionary standard for the medical profession as it is not scientifically vetted. That is why stedman's medical dictionary is the authority. Because its definitions are guaranteed to be medically accurate. Because it is scientifically correct.


Quote:
well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.
it uses stedman's medical dictionary. Why are you lying?


Quote:
so that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.
ah, so your lies makes me a hypocrite?


Quote:
you have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,
not at all. I just showed where you did so.


Quote:
bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
nope, I am not saying anything to her because she didn't try to imply some stupid idea such as that only some procedures are valid. I am not objecting to th medical gradient. I am onjecting to the medical gradient applied in a form to somehow speaking out agianst abortion. Thus, you used it in an invalid form, while bd didn't.






right liar lets get this straight you are a liar do you understand
http://w ww.Nlm.Nih.Gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary .Html
go there everyone this will prove steen is a liar they use merriam websters you lying hypocrite.




You must be stupid or ignorant not to see the point steen you will insist on proving my points for me you are a hypocrite,as for racism laws im in england so try our laws you lying racist,
i have proved you a liar again now why dont you give up,once again you try to attribute to me something that isnt there just how stupid are you.

Now that I have proved you a liar again are you going to stop lying and be honest,if there is no reason to argue with someone steen dont twist a post so you can have a reason



i,v just been it does use merriam websters dictionary.
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steen

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Posted: 01-27-05 15:34pm

foreverblue wrote:
steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
you also use medline to back up your claims
yes, medline is the reference source for medical, scientific journal publications. That is where the science and the research is reported. That is a valid, scientific source.
Quote:
but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,
i am saying that it is not the dictionary standard for the medical profession as it is not scientifically vetted. That is why stedman's medical dictionary is the authority. Because its definitions are guaranteed to be medically accurate. Because it is scientifically correct.
Quote:
well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.
it uses stedman's medical dictionary. Why are you lying?
Quote:
so that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.
ah, so your lies makes me a hypocrite?
Quote:
you have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,
not at all. I just showed where you did so.
Quote:
bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
nope, I am not saying anything to her because she didn't try to imply some stupid idea such as that only some procedures are valid. I am not objecting to th medical gradient. I am onjecting to the medical gradient applied in a form to somehow speaking out agianst abortion. Thus, you used it in an invalid form, while bd didn't.
right liar lets get this straight you are a liar do you understand
http://w ww.Nlm.Nih.Gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary .Html
go there everyone this will prove steen is a liar they use merriam websters you lying hypocrite.
they use m-w to search terms on their site, yes. But that is all it does. That's because stedman's is not on-line, you have to buy it. But the medical definitions used in medline is from stedman's.

And you can see that when you do a search on "stedman's" it directs you to various glossaries and similar that shows stedman's used as the reference for the glossaries
(f.Ex. Here: http://www.Bpkids.O rg/community/glossary.Htm go to the borrom where they list references, including: "stedman's medical dictionary, 27th edition. (2000). Baltimore, maryland: lippincott williams & wilkins. ")
Quote:
as for racism laws im in england
well, I am in the us. That aside, I am still waiting for you to actually prove your claim.
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foreverblue

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Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 15:36pm

steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
steen wrote:
foreverblue wrote:
you also use medline to back up your claims
yes, medline is the reference source for medical, scientific journal publications. That is where the science and the research is reported. That is a valid, scientific source.

Quote:
but then you say that merriam websters isnt a valid reference for a medical dictionary{partial birth abortion}do you remember,
i am saying that it is not the dictionary standard for the medical profession as it is not scientifically vetted. That is why stedman's medical dictionary is the authority. Because its definitions are guaranteed to be medically accurate. Because it is scientifically correct.
Quote:
well clever clogs what dictionary does med line use,yes you got it merriam websters.
it uses stedman's medical dictionary. Why are you lying?

Quote:
so that makes you an hypocrite.I have had enough of your attempts to try and bring me down to your level steen,i have more respect for the issue than let you.
ah, so your lies makes me a hypocrite?
Quote:
you have lied when you said I tried to put a gradient of risk on certain types of surgery,when all I did was state a fact,
not at all. I just showed where you did so.
Quote:
bd put the gradient on surgery,but you wont say anything to her because she is on your side,so yes steen you have lied
nope, I am not saying anything to her because she didn't try to imply some stupid idea such as that only some procedures are valid. I am not objecting to th medical gradient. I am onjecting to the medical gradient applied in a form to somehow speaking out agianst abortion. Thus, you used it in an invalid form, while bd didn't.
right liar lets get this straight you are a liar do you understand
http://w ww.Nlm.Nih.Gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary .Html
go there everyone this will prove steen is a liar they use merriam websters you lying hypocrite.
they use m-w to search terms on their site, yes. But that is all it does. That's because stedman's is not on-line, you have to buy it. But the medical definitions used in medline is from stedman's.


And you can see that when you do a search on "stedman's" it directs you to various glossaries and similar that shows stedman's used as the reference for the glossaries
(f.Ex. Here: http://www.Bpkids.O rg/community/glossary.Htm go to the borrom where they list references, including: "stedman's medical dictionary, 27th edition. (2000). Baltimore, maryland: lippincott williams & wilkins. ")
Quote:
as for racism laws im in england
well, I am in the us. That aside, I am still waiting for you to actually prove your claim.



you backpedal any quicker steen and you are going to fall over still no apology for calling me a liar when I wasnt lying
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lil_blaze2004

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Posted: 01-27-05 16:02pm

Foreverblue

i've come to learn steen will never admit he's wrong and never apologize for anything. I bet he steps on someone's foot and makes them apologize..

Please note this is my opinion--lmao
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foreverblue

Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 01-27-05 16:06pm

lil_blaze2004 wrote:
foreverblue

i've come to learn steen will never admit he's wrong and never apologize for anything. I bet he steps on someone's foot and makes them apologize..



Please note this is my opinion--lmao


I have noticed he likes to avoid the threads<which he calls treads,a doctor who cannot spell,i dont believe it>which prove him wrong or he posts some bs about how he has proved it in other threads.I have actually read 99% of his threads on this forum and the abortion forum,and he has posted less than 10 links to prove himself and some of them are back to this forum.












Please note this is a fact
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