The fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks. This
is probably a conservatively late
estimate, but it is scientifically solid.
Elements of the pain-conveying system
(spino-thalamic system) begin to be
assembled at 7 weeks; enough development
has occurred by 12-14 weeks that some pain
perception is likely, and continues to
build through the second trimester. By 20
weeks, the spino- thalamic system is fully
established and connected.
There are three different indicators
providing evidence that the fetus feels
pain.
Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in
stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal
cord link up and reach the thalamus (the
brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks
(summarized by anand, k.J.S., atlanta)
physiological/hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful
stimulation
- two types of stress hormones, normally
released by adults subjected to pain, are
released by adults subjected to pain, are
releases in massive amounts by the fetus
subjected to a needle puncture to draw a
blood sample:
(a) from 19 weeks onward (n. Fisk;
london, england)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (j. Partch;
kiel, germany)
behavioral
- withdraw from pain
- change in vital signs
a 20-30 week old fetus actually will feel
more pain than an adult. The period
between 20-30 weeks is a uniquely
vulnerable time, since the pain system is
fully established, yet the higher level
pain-modifying system has barely begun to
develop.
As presented by Dr. Paul ranalli on
"pain, fetal development and partial birth
abortion"
Hmm and I wonder, since when you poke your
tummy after 12 wks or so the baby
squirms... It feels things obviously!
|
bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-01-05 11:54am
Even if it does feel pain at 20 weeks..
Elective abortion is illegal around that
time and the only abortions performed are
for health reasons.. And like I said
before.. When you hit your knee in a
certain spot.. It moves.. It's called a
reflex.
|
mom2trevor
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 694 Location: VA
Posted: 01-01-05 14:55pm
Bullsh*t bd!! Elective abortions are
performed up to 24 weeks in most areas.
Atlanta, georgia has two *women's centers*
that perform *elective abortions* up to
24.5 wks...Please read up on your info
before you post *lies*
i mean shi* that's two places just in
*one* city. Don't believe me look them up
for yourself.
Atlantasurgicenter.Com and
atlantawomensmedicalcenter.Com
fyi--the atlantasurgicenter does them up
to 26 wks.
And what are the statistics? Hmm...Only
2% of abortions are due to health reasons.
|
bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-01-05 15:07pm
They are? Well then I apoligize if I am
wrong but I read that the fetus is viable
around I think 20 weeks and the state is
compelled to protect it at that time..
(not sure if I agree with that..) it might
be 24 though. I will look further into
abortion law right now.
|
bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-01-05 15:14pm
Ok my bad.. It was 24 weeks they are
illegal. Sorry :oops: even if the fetus
does indeed feel pain at 20 weeks.. Not
many elective abortions are performed
then.. In fact 88% of abortions are
performed at 6-12 weeks.
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Re: Argue With Me Anyone? Posted: 01-01-05 18:21pm
mom2trevor
wrote:
the fetus can feel pain at
20 weeks. This is probably a
conservatively late estimate, but it is
scientifically solid. Elements of the
pain-conveying system (spino-thalamic
system) begin to be assembled at 7 weeks;
enough development has occurred by 12-14
weeks that some pain perception is likely,
and continues to build through the second
trimester. By 20 weeks, the spino-
thalamic system is fully established and
connected.
yes, some anti-choice
physicians have sold their integrity for
political expediency. All honest
physicians and scientists know that there
is no sensation of any kind until the
brain's cortex is involved in processing
the stimuli.
I tried to look up this paul ranalli on
medline, and guess what. He has never
actually published anything scientific
anywhere, which means that he does not
conduct any research into these matters.
He shows up as v.P. In a political group
known as "physicians for life," a
political organization. And he also has
inserted himself in the debate about
homosexual marriage, has made claims about
abortion and breast cancer that has been
so thoroughly disproven that anybody still
making those silly claims are outright
lying. He also happens to be board
member of "the centre for cultural
renewal," a fundamentalist group who seeks
to impose biblical law and culture into
canadian law and society.
He happens to be the one who claims that
the thalamus itself can actually feel
pain. No other neurologist or
embryologist have actually ever found
evidence for this claim, and Dr. Ranalli
haven't published any evidence for this
either. His claims are based on the
fetus showing a reaction that every other
neurologist have characterized as a
reflex, and that there is a release of
stress chemicals in the ftus' body when
exposed to stimuli. Incidentially, the
same release of stress hormones are also
seen in people undergoing surgery under
full anesthesia. So for this to be true,
people undergoing surgery should be
feeling pain as well. Suprise... They
don't feel anything during the surgery, as
the anesthesia specifically targets the
thalamocortical tract and blocks its
signaling capabilities.
By the way, what website did you steal
this from? Copying sources without
referencing them is known as plagiarism,
and most of the time is a copyright
violation that can get websites shut down.
As such, webmasters tend to frown of
people like you putting their site in
danger. So what political pro-life site
was this from?
Quote:
there are three
different indicators providing evidence
that the fetus feels pain.
Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in
stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal
cord link up and reach the thalamus (the
brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks
(summarized by anand, k.J.S.,
atlanta)
and until any of those
stimuli actually reach the cortex of the
brain, there is no sensation never mind
what this guy says. It is great fodder
for the anti-choicers, but among
scientists, among those who actually deal
with neurology, he is a laughing stock, a
fool who sacrificed his scientific
credibility for political sophistry.
Quote:
physiological/hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful
stimulation
that's called a reflex.
Go learhn about it and then tell me how a
reflex can show anything about actual
sensation.
Quote:
- two types of
stress hormones, normally released by
adults subjected to pain, are released by
adults subjected to pain, are releases in
massive amounts by the fetus subjected to
a needle puncture to draw a blood sample:
(a) from 19 weeks onward (n. Fisk;
london, england)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (j. Partch;
kiel, germany)
similar to what we see
under surgery of a fully anesthetized
person. As such that doesn't prove
anything about sensation. (as I
mentioned, this guy doesn't have any
credibility among those who actually
research this.
Quote:
behavioral
- withdraw from
pain
reflexive, yes.
Quote:
- change in
vital signs
which again is controlled
by reflexes. You can contiously override
some vital signs, but they are nearly
always controlled automatically.
Quote:
a 20-30 week old
fetus actually will feel more pain than an
adult. The period between 20-30 weeks is
a uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain
system is fully established, yet the
higher level pain-modifying system has
barely begun to
develop.
20-30 weeks, huh?
Actually, that is from week 26-30, when
substance p is still not modulated by the
autonomous nervous system, and after the
connection of the thalamocortical tract
results in such potential responses.
Quote:
as presented by
Dr. Paul ranalli on "pain, fetal
development and partial birth
abortion"
and, fascinating enough,
he didn't dare to actually publish this
drivel in any scientific source.
Gee, do we have to wonder why, with the
stupid nonsense about the thalamus as a
processing center being so far out of
touch with the researched and generally
understood processing of sensation
happening in the cortex, not the
thalamus?
Next time, try a scientific source
instead.
|
steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-01-05 18:22pm
newmommy23
wrote:
well said and I
agree.
and on what basis do you
agree? What part of the claimed science
is it that makes you agree? Or is your
agreement based strictly on political
opinions?
|
steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-01-05 18:23pm
saminsunisma
wrote:
hmm and I wonder, since when
you poke your tummy after 12 wks or so the
baby squirms... It feels things
obviously!
nope, that is a reflex.
Same as if I tap on your knee the right
place, you will kick even if you didn't
plan to. Reflexes and not conscious and
not based on brain processing of stimuli.
|
steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-01-05 18:24pm
mom2trevor
wrote:
and what are the statistics?
Hmm...Only 2% of abortions are due to
health
reasons.
well, that kind of fits
with only 1.4% of abortions being
performed at or after 21 weeks. Hmm...
|
steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Posted: 01-01-05 18:26pm
bd1012
wrote:
they are? Well then I
apoligize if I am wrong but I read that
the fetus is viable around I think 20
weeks and the state is compelled to
protect it at that time.. (not sure if I
agree with that..) it might be 24 though.
I will look further into abortion law
right now.
viability is generally
considered to be 24 weeks. "viability"
is the gestational age at which 50% of the
neonates actually survive to one month.
Says nothing about the massive mental
retardation we see at those ages.
|
bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Re: But..... Posted: 01-01-05 22:58pm
jlee77
wrote:
i don't care what the % is
of babies aborted for non-health reasons,
1 is still too many. 24 weeks. Imagine
that. How disgusting is that? The baby
is fully formed at 24 weeks and only has
some growing to do. As a matter of fact,
a baby can be born, with much risk of
course, at 28 weeks and
survive.
and 1 death from pregnancy is far too
many.
|
FISHX
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 920 Location: UK
Argue With Me Anyone Posted: 01-02-05 08:49am
Steen if you do ,nt mind me asking what
area of the medical profession do you
specialise in ?
|
Gero
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 44
Re: Argue With Me Anyone? Posted: 01-02-05 09:47am
steen
wrote:
mom2trevor
wrote:
the fetus can feel pain at
20 weeks. This is probably a
conservatively late estimate, but it is
scientifically solid. Elements of the
pain-conveying system (spino-thalamic
system) begin to be assembled at 7 weeks;
enough development has occurred by 12-14
weeks that some pain perception is likely,
and continues to build through the second
trimester. By 20 weeks, the spino-
thalamic system is fully established and
connected.
yes, some anti-choice
physicians have sold their integrity for
political expediency. All honest
physicians and scientists know that there
is no sensation of any kind until the
brain's cortex is involved in processing
the stimuli.
I tried to look up this paul ranalli on
medline, and guess what. He has never
actually published anything scientific
anywhere, which means that he does not
conduct any research into these matters.
He shows up as v.P. In a political
group known as "physicians for life," a
political organization. And he also has
inserted himself in the debate about
homosexual marriage, has made claims about
abortion and breast cancer that has been
so thoroughly disproven that anybody still
making those silly claims are outright
lying. He also happens to be board
member of "the centre for cultural
renewal," a fundamentalist group who seeks
to impose biblical law and culture into
canadian law and society.
He happens to be the one who claims that
the thalamus itself can actually feel
pain. No other neurologist or
embryologist have actually ever found
evidence for this claim, and Dr. Ranalli
haven't published any evidence for this
either. His claims are based on the
fetus showing a reaction that every other
neurologist have characterized as a
reflex, and that there is a release of
stress chemicals in the ftus' body when
exposed to stimuli. Incidentially, the
same release of stress hormones are also
seen in people undergoing surgery under
full anesthesia. So for this to be
true, people undergoing surgery should be
feeling pain as well. Suprise... They
don't feel anything during the surgery, as
the anesthesia specifically targets the
thalamocortical tract and blocks its
signaling capabilities.
By the way, what website did you steal
this from? Copying sources without
referencing them is known as plagiarism,
and most of the time is a copyright
violation that can get websites shut down.
As such, webmasters tend to frown of
people like you putting their site in
danger. So what political pro-life site
was this from?
Quote:
there are three
different indicators providing evidence
that the fetus feels pain.
Anatomical
- pain receptors spread over the body in
stages: 8-16 weeks
- pain impulse connections in the spinal
cord link up and reach the thalamus (the
brain's reception center): 7-20 weeks
(summarized by anand, k.J.S.,
atlanta)
and until any of those
stimuli actually reach the cortex of the
brain, there is no sensation never mind
what this guy says. It is great fodder
for the anti-choicers, but among
scientists, among those who actually deal
with neurology, he is a laughing stock, a
fool who sacrificed his scientific
credibility for political sophistry.
Quote:
physiological/hormonal
- fetuses withdraw from painful
stimulation
that's called a reflex.
Go learhn about it and then tell me how a
reflex can show anything about actual
sensation.
Quote:
- two types of
stress hormones, normally released by
adults subjected to pain, are released by
adults subjected to pain, are releases in
massive amounts by the fetus subjected to
a needle puncture to draw a blood sample:
(a) from 19 weeks onward (n. Fisk;
london, england)
(b) from 16 weeks onward (j. Partch;
kiel, germany)
similar to what we see
under surgery of a fully anesthetized
person. As such that doesn't prove
anything about sensation. (as I
mentioned, this guy doesn't have any
credibility among those who actually
research this.
Quote:
behavioral
- withdraw from
pain
reflexive, yes.
Quote:
- change in
vital signs
which again is controlled
by reflexes. You can contiously
override some vital signs, but they are
nearly always controlled automatically.
Quote:
a 20-30 week old
fetus actually will feel more pain than an
adult. The period between 20-30 weeks
is a uniquely vulnerable time, since the
pain system is fully established, yet the
higher level pain-modifying system has
barely begun to
develop.
20-30 weeks, huh?
Actually, that is from week 26-30, when
substance p is still not modulated by the
autonomous nervous system, and after the
connection of the thalamocortical tract
results in such potential responses.
Quote:
as presented by
Dr. Paul ranalli on "pain, fetal
development and partial birth
abortion"
and, fascinating enough,
he didn't dare to actually publish this
drivel in any scientific source.
Gee, do we have to wonder why, with the
stupid nonsense about the thalamus as a
processing center being so far out of
touch with the researched and generally
understood processing of sensation
happening in the cortex, not the
thalamus?
Next time, try a scientific source
instead.
oh, please! People who
are prochoice can come up with more
arguements to justify abortion.
|
steen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 1797 Location: Upper Midwest
Re: Argue With Me Anyone? Posted: 01-02-05 14:16pm
gero
wrote:
oh, please! People who are
prochoice can come up with more arguements
to justify
abortion.
hmm, I couldn't help but
noticing that you "forgot" to actually
address those arguments. <snicker>
are you going to deal with the issues like
some sensitive and serious pro-lifers are
here, or are you trying to be a troll like
izzy, jlee and mom2trevor?
|
Gero
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Dec 2004 Posts: 44
Posted: 01-25-05 13:17pm
You know, it really inferiorates me that
whoever the person is that moderates this
board will flat out refuse to ban anyone
who supports his/her liberal prochoice
stance no matter how rude or insulting
he/she is, yet if someone who is prolife
defends him or herself by giving the
prochoice people a dose of their own
medicine, he or she gets either gets
threatened to be banned or actually gets
banned. The rules should be that anyone
who says anything that is rude, insulting,
or off-color should be banned from this
board and not just prolife people. And
i'm sticking by my statement, steen. And
no, you cannot eliminate me from this
board just because i'm against abortion.
If you don't think I addressed these
arguments in my post, just read through
all of the prochoice posts on this board.
That is enough evidence to support my
statement. And by the way, prochoice
people can get pretty nasty when trying to
justify what they do. Why are you all so
defensive? Because you know that what you
are doing is really wrong?
|
BrianBaby
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 1383
Re: But..... Posted: 01-25-05 13:45pm
bd1012
wrote:
jlee77
wrote:
i don't care what the % is
of babies aborted for non-health reasons,
1 is still too many. 24 weeks.
Imagine that. How disgusting is that?
The baby is fully formed at 24 weeks and
only has some growing to do. As a
matter of fact, a baby can be born, with
much risk of course, at 28 weeks and
survive.
and 1 death from pregnancy is far too
many.
what about the millions of deaths that
occur from abortions????
|
mom2trevor
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 694 Location: VA
Posted: 01-25-05 13:51pm
The pro-choice people on here don't
believe that it's killing...They have this
sick view that it's just a lump of tissue
or something ignorant like that. And when
they do admit that it's killing...They
reply by saying "so what"...So they dont'
care about how many babies are killed all
they care about is that they don't get
stretch marks...Sick sick people!
|
bd1012
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 1998
Posted: 01-25-05 13:52pm
What about the millions of deaths that
occur from pregnancy? Just because
pregnancy is natural, it doesnt' mean it
is healthy for the woman.
