I have also gone thru withdraws,cold turkey and medicated,its the hardest thing I have ever done,i have had over two years clean now ,feel free to e-mail me back

I have been doing cocaine off and on for about 10 years. I absolutley hate the come down off of it, so I did some research into how to lessen the crash. Hope this is helpful.

Here's how coke works: when you do a line of coke, it causes your body to output a tremendous amount of serotonin. This serotonin is recieved by receptors, and enters your brain. This creates the high. When an abundance of serotonin is dumped on these receptors (like watering flowers), your brain grows additional receptors to absorb the extra serotonin. There is a constant flow of serotonin to these receptors naturally, coke just drastically increases the flow.

When the coke wears off, the output of serotonin goes back to normal levels. However, the receptors stay. Now you have significantly more receptors that serotonin to fill them. They are craving serotonin. There are really 3 main ways to immeadately rid yourself of this craving, this causes the low. It takes days for these receptors to die off, which is why you feel down for a few days.

There are several ways to minimize this craving: eating sleeping, or doing more coke. Here's some others:

ssri's. Zoloft, prozac, paxil, etc.... / they are "selective serotonin rebutake inhibitors." therefore, thes drugs inhibit the selective receptors (thus turning off the extra receptors). Thus, getting rid of that low. The danger with these drugs is that they rid people of emotions - good and bad. They actually caused me to do more drugs because I didn't experience a lot of emotion otherwise - they made me bored.

5-htp: available at any drugstore. It replenshes your bodys serotonin. Take it regularly and it will keep you in a better mood throughout the day.

L-tyrosine - replinishes dopamine. Also depleted by cocaine.

St. John's wort - increases serotonin.

Melatonin - avail @ drugstores. It induces rem sleep (the sleep where you dream and your body is recharged). Sleeping pills interfere with rem sleep, and will make you feel like caca the next day.

Hope this helps......

Im 17 yrs old and have been doing charlie every week and have been buying up too 2 grams every weekend since march 2004, ever now and then I have major nose bleeds and feel sick an have a pain in my fore-head I havent had it since last night and the I feel quite depressed I was thinking about myself as I was coming down off it and it was really weird I didnt think I was gunna wake up, is there any drugs to sort me out im not going to do anymore now ever hopefully... Please write back and help me out im still youth :(

Hay going go check out the 5-htp
i live in canada hopefully it will solve my problems
hope more posts will go up here still got lots to learn

Good information here, I hope I can get off this sh**, I bin doin it for a couple of yrs quite heavily now & only recently started 2 get chest pains, & sometimes I get breathing probs.. Even when I smoke a cigg my heart startz beatin fast & I try not to panic, now I smoke 1 or 2 ciggs a day, I jus hope my body stops feelin this way & I can start feeling fresh & healthy again..

Peace..

Well as an update from my first post...

I tried quitting but by keeping my life the same which I now know is impossible....This weekend was the first time I did it in about 3 weeks and I did about 5 grams through the whole weekend....Im sitting here right now depressed, upset, and fed up with this.

I realized that I need to stop drinking becuase the only time I crave cocaine is when im really drunk....My goal is to completely stop drinking for about a month, then slowly begin becomming a social drinker by weening myself in it.....If I screw up after that it will be much more permanent

out of curiosity I am wondering what my use is compared to others.....I would say its an averave of 1 gram a week....1 day a week....Sometimes I will have a weekend where I will do 3...The most in a weekend ever is 5

would this be considered heavy use?

I heard this story some years ago, don’t know if it’s true, but here goes.
A scientist took a group of monkeys and put them in a room where they could have cocaine, or they could have food. But they had to choose, they could only have one or the other, but not both.
That bunch of monkeys starved to death high on cocaine.

I read chrism’s question and all the posts that followed.
It is quite possible that things like zoloft, 5-htp st. John’s wort etc. Can be of some help, but I didn’t find one reference to the program of ca or aa.

Chrism, and I quote…
“my goal is to completely stop drinking for about a month, then slowly begin becoming a social drinker by weaning myself in it”

if you ain’t a social drinker now, you ain’t gonna be one in a month. You get plastered and you do cocaine, but you get plastered first. You may find it harder than you think to simply not drink.

Any body can quit for a day or so, maybe you can quit for a month, but what happens after that? You start up drinking and you start up snorting coke. What you really need to know is how do you stay stopped? That is the real question.

There is a school of thought that says that all this stuff that we do is simply a manifestation of a spiritual disease.
Zoloft, 5-htp st. John’s wort etc. Will not long hold it at bay, it will eat my lunch without a power greater than itself in my corner.

If you find that your best laid plans to cut back just ain’t makin’ it, think about what I said.

Your friend on this long strange trip,
richard s.

My friend is 15 and does coke everyday. I also do it to but not very much and not in large amounts. He does about a gram a day. He has lost weight and cuts classes all the time. Somebody please give me advice on what to do. I need to help him b4 its 2 late

in my opinion, the first thing you need to do is quit abusing cocaine and get away from everyone you know that uses this destructive drug. I know it sounds harsh but you are very young and there are horrible consequenses in your future that you may not be aware of nor ready to handle.

Second, please talk to your parents about this and ask them to help you get clean, and if you cannot trust your parents, you need to speak to a counsler at your school or an adult that you can trust to give you good advice and help you.

Lastly after you have helped yourself, you can then focus on your friends addiction but not until you have worked on yourself. I hope you succede and beat this addiction!

As a nutritional psychologist and psychotherapist I have found that most drug addicts are hypoglycemic.


This can be easily tested by a special glucose tolerance test for hypoglycemia, described at our web site as:

"testing for hypoglycemia and how the doctors can help".


Hypoglycemia is a nutritional disorder that interferes with the absorption of glucose into cells. This is due to insulin resistance (hypoglycemia). This results in the brain not being supplied with adequate amounts of biological energy, that is essential in the synthesis in the neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine and so on.


When the brain senses an energy starvation ( a hypoglycemic dip) it will send out stress hormones such as adrenaline and cortisol to raise blood sugar levels to feed the brain again. These stress hormones are the major cause of the symptoms of mental illnesses, including depression, addiction, compulsive behaviour etc etc.


Studies have shown that it takes about 9-14 months for the body to rebuild normal receptors for neurotransmitters damaged by taking drugs. The hypoglycemic diet, which is high in protein should assist in restoring and rebuilding receptors for neurochemicals.


Single herbal or nutritional supplements may not help, because as single magic bullets they may miss the biochemical targets.


See:

“hit or miss supplements for depression” at our web site.


Thus the first step in the treatment of drug addiction is 1) withdraw from drugs under medical supervision, @) adopt the hypoglycemic diet that will stabilize blood sugar, insulin and stress hormones levels and 3) undertake some psychotherapy if deemed necessary.


Please read:

“treatment of drug addiction”

“what is hypoglycemia?”

jurriaan plesman, ba(psych), post grad. Dip. Clin. Nutr.

Can’t let this one go…

and I quote
“these stress hormones are the major cause of addiction,”

if getting the dope and alcohol out of our systems, and giving us a handful of vitamins was what we needed to stay clean and sober, detoxes would be graduating success stories every day. That is just what they do. That is just about all that they do, with the possible exception of introducing their clients to aa or na..


The hard cold facts are that most dope addicts and most alcoholics come out of detoxes clean and dry, go straight to the nearest dope hole or package store and die either stoned or drunk. Getting the poison out of my system was not enough to keep me from drinking again. Eating a hypoglycemic diet would do me no harm, it’s probably a good idea, but it won’t fix me!

We are suffering from a disease that only a spiritual experience will fix. It doesn’t matter if I believe that statement or not. The only question an addict or alcoholic need ask themselves is “how is my life going?”
and if we answer honestly, it ain’t going so well.
There is something wrong with us way down in the heart of what makes us a human being, and that disease doesn’t respond pharmacologically or physiologically. The ego cannot rise above itself.

Richard s.

Hello richard,

you write:

"we are suffering from a disease that only a spiritual experience will fix. It doesn’t matter if I believe that statement or not. The only question an addict or alcoholic need ask themselves is “how is my life going?” "

you are restating an old conventional wisdom that addiction is caused by some spiritual illness.


This ignores the science showing that addiction is the result of a biochemical disorder that can be fixed nutritionally, provided you understand the biochemical mechanism.


This is not merely a theory, but can be verified by a special medical test for hypoglycemia.


So long an addict remains hypoglycemic he will continue to feel miserable and be very much tempted to go back to his drug of addiction. This is because he cannot produce the 'feel-good' neurotransmitters that can make him feel happy, relaxed and content when he should.

The underlying biochemical abnormality cannot be cure by a 'spiritual conversion', because we are dealing with a physical disease.


It is only after the treatment of the chemical abnormality, that we can look at 'psychological factors' or even what you might call his spiritual values.


Jurriaan plesman, ba(psych), post grad. Dip. Clin. Nutr.

Jurriaan…
i think we are on the same page here.
I do believe that an addict, or in my case an addict/alcoholic are physically ill people. Very physically ill.
I am also in agreement that nutritional questions are often overlooked by the proponents of this spiritual solution we have found.
Some men feel that applying the age old steps of admission of defeat, restitution of wrongs and service to others are all that is needed to recover. They as well have a fairly large pool of evidence that that approach does indeed bear useful fruit.
But to the disservice of the people they would help, they sometimes overlook the physical/mechanical nature of the mind. The mind is indeed the receiver of spiritual insight, but it is also an electrical/mechanical device. And as a physical device, it is subject to misalignments for lack of a better word.
There a fairly large amount of evidence that points to changes in diet, the addition of nutritional supplements etc. Can have a profound affect on cravings.
With the guys I work with I stress the importance of the aforementioned things.

But jurriaan, it would be hard for any person who has worked in this field for any length of time at all to overlook the fact that most alcoholics die wet. They die wet after being subject to the finest medical care available. They die wet after being exposed to the program of alcoholics anonymous. They die wet trying to get sober on self will alone. They die wet after having been offered everything the human mind can conceive.
Allow me to attempt to restate something I truly believe.
This is important.
A man, having seemingly beaten this disease, been the beneficiary of all you or I have to offer, having gotten his life back, and having no apparent reason to resume drinking, hasn’t had a drink in weeks, months, or years, will take that first drink.
Why would he do that? When he knows that to drink or drug is to throw away everything? How can we explain this profound lack of judgment?
This is where we may differ in our thinking.
I think he starts again when to start again means he will lose his family, everything is because even after prolonged abstinents, he isn’t happy about being dry.

Alcohol did something for me long before it did anything to me. That distinction is very important.
The figures I have heard state that approximately 5% to 8% of the general population, give or take a point or two have a unique reaction to alcohol. It sets us free. It is a power greater than ourselves. It takes a hostile frightening world and instantly turns it into a warm friendly place to live. It is no wonder that we go back to that warm friendly place again and again.
Unless we can find a substitute for that wonderful freedom, we have no choice but to go back to the only thing we know that will give us relief.
It seems no matter how long we have been dry, and no matter what medical tact we have taken, that freedom brought on by a few drinks alludes us. Of course, the problem is that vodka isn’t a loving higher power, it is a cruel one.
That is where this profound spiritual experience plays the critical role of taking this world, warts and all and miraculously making it into a place we can live in comfortably.
Only then, and only by actively maintaining contact with this spiritual experience, god if you will, can a truly hopeless alcoholic be free.
I an a fan of the scientific method. I am a fan of demonstrable truth, and I understand that a flowery statement like may fly in the face of scientific inquiry.

But remember what will shakespeare said…
“there are more things in heaven and earth, horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

your friend
richard

Dear richard,

you write:

“but jurriaan, it would be hard for any person who has worked in this field for any length of time at all to overlook the fact that most alcoholics die wet. They die wet after being subject to the finest medical care available.”

i, too, have spent my professional career for at least thirty years in the addiction recovery industry. I fully understand the frustration that drug counsellors have, when they see their clients go off the rail after many years of sobriety.


I can assure you that most members of the the medical profession have no clue as to what causes addiction. Doctors are drug oriented and look for pharmaceutical solutions to mental problems. Thus there is no such thing as “the finest medical care”.


“a man, having seemingly beaten this disease, been the beneficiary of all you or I have to offer, having gotten his life back, and having no apparent reason to resume drinking, hasn’t had a drink in weeks, months, or years, will take that first drink.
Why would he do that? When he knows that to drink or drug is to throw”

the reason why he would do that is because a dry alcoholic has problems producing serotonin, and this makes him feel depressed without knowing why. By drinking alcohol and providing the biological energy derived from alcohol he will experience a fleeting moment of sanity and happiness once again.


“the figures I have heard state that approximately 5% to 8% of the general population, give or take a point or two have a unique reaction to alcohol. It sets us free.’

i am not sure about these statistics but is true that alcoholics metabolize alcohol in a different way from non-alcoholics. Please search our web site for “thiq” for more information.


The reason why there is such a low recovery rate among addicts is that professionals in the field have a poor understanding of the biochemistry of addiction.


I have explained why alcoholics choose alcohol as their source of energy in:

“why hypoglycemics choose alcohol as their preferred source of energy”

at our web site.


I agree that nutritional biochemistry or human biochemistry is a very complex matter, but we could possibly simplify it by claiming that depression - and for that matter many form of mental illness including addiction - is a disease of energy production.


Thus we could reduce the whole problem of mental illness to the fact that the victim of mental illness has problems synthesizing the ‘feel-good’ neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine and others.


Thus unless we can restore a person’s capacity to produce these neurotransmitters from normal food sources, that person will be depressed and is likely resort to other chemical sources to produce these essential neurotransmitters to give him a sense of normality.


The key concept is biological energy. The brain, although 2 per cent of the body, requires about 80 per cent of that energy to carry out the multitude of biochemical reactions for a healthy brain to convert one molecule to another; for instance convert the protein unit of tryptophan to the neurotransmitter, serotonin. Many other nutrients are also required to complete that task. This energy is required at any time, whether we are asleep or awake.


Thus a person who has problems absorbing and metabolizing glucose, as the universal source of biological energy, will inevitably produce inadequate amounts of energy to the brain.


The major reason for this obstruction in glucose absorption is insulin resistance - also called hypoglycemic syndrome. Insulin resistance means that the receptors for insulin fail to push glucose (and other nutrients) across cell membranes and thus prevents the conversion of glucose to biological energy. This has quite a few biochemical consequences that have been explained at the web site. But the end result is that the brain will be subjected to unstable blood sugar levels, with glucose concentrations going up and down.


Whenever the brain senses an energy starvation following a hypoglycemic dip - threatening the very survival of brain tissues in a matter of minutes - the brain will trigger the release of stress hormones - mainly adrenaline and cortisol. These hormones function to increase glucose from sugar stores in the body, so as to feed the brain again. But they also may cause the symptoms of mental illness

thus we may see how a dry drunk, sober, but extremely unhappy and depressed, suffering unexplainable mood swings (due to starvation of serotonin and excess adrenaline) dreams of the good old days when he felt happy and carefree during his drinking days.

It is no wonder that he is bound to relapse. No amount of talk therapy or ‘spirituality’ can overrule his underlying biochemical needs for serotonin and dopamine. His faulty biochemistry is his “power greater than himself”.


Thus the main reason why so many addicts fail to respond to treatment is that most mainstream doctors, psychologists and drug counsellors have no clue as to the underlying biochemical forces that control the addict’s personality and therefore cannot help him when they are most needed - after initial detoxification!


One explanation for this sorry state of affairs is that the prevailing view among counsellors and addicts is that the cause of of drug addiction is the drug. Thus if an addict stops using his drug he is cured!

Most drug counsellors do not fully understand that the hypoglycemic diet is not just a healthy diet, but a special diet, specifically aimed at overcoming hypoglycemia - a common feature of addicts - and that it helps to normalize blood sugar levels and stress hormones. It also supplies missing nutrients and coenzymes, such as zinc, magnesium, vitamin c, b6, omega-3 fatty acids, that are known to be deficient in addicts.

It is difficult to get the message across that if we have an abnormal biochemistry, it will produce ‘abnormal psychological’ experiences, that should not be confused with the causes of mental illness. The causes of mental illness is biochemical - not mental, not psychological, not spiritual.


We can only consider the mental and spiritual aspects of life when we have a healthy brain capable of providing the right neurotransmitters that gives us the ‘free will’ to decide and choose what we want to believe in.


(it is very annoying to see that this forum does not recognize standard english; i.E., no capitals when needed etc.)

jurriaan plesman, ba(psych), post grad. Dip. Clin. Nutr.

Jurriaan…
one of the tenets of the program of alcoholics anonymous that has been of great benefit to me on my path is to admit where the other guy is right.

“there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

i have visited your web site, and I have read a fair amount of the information there.
I am excited by the ideas you have put forward.
Have you or anyone else conducted controlled experiments as to the efficacy of your approach.
Maybe double blind or placebo studies?
If what you say about reversing insulin resistance or the hypoglycemic syndrome is as powerful a remedy as you clam, the results must be most impressive.
I for one am willing to look anywhere for a solution to this age old problem. I know your ideas have been rejected by some institutions where you live, but if your approach really works, the proof, by documenting it through rigorous clinical trials should be undeniable.
One caveat, drunks are notorious about not being forthcoming with the truth. All studies I know anything about have a devil of a time tracking long term success in this population.

Your friend
richard

p.S.
And I quote…
“his faulty biochemistry is his “power greater than himself”
i guess that statement begs the question,
is a spiritual experience also merely a product of biochemistry?

Dear shadowalker

i have been primarily a clinician and not a scientific researcher. Thus my specific approach to the treatment of mental illness is based on my clinical experiences.



It is because of my own history of mental illness, addiction and also as a psychiatric nurse, student, counselor and psychotherapist that I have accumulated a lot of knowledge about the biochemistry of mental illness. As a result I have been able to help a lot of clients, most of whom were considered to be ‘treatment resistant’.



In my early days I had little support from my colleagues, but when some members of the non-orthodox medical profession joined me, we found plenty of evidence for the connection between hypoglycemia and addiction. We tested literally thousands of clients, and dr george samra wrote a book called “the hypoglycemic connection ii” (search our web site) I wrote a book "getting off the hook".



But let us call addiction, mental illness, because I see all the manifestations of apparently separate symptoms of mental illnesses as forming part of a cluster of symptoms of the same underlying biochemical disorder. Mainstream medicine and psychology tend to have compartmentalized the various diagnoses, whereas I see anxiety attacks, depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, ptsd, gad, sad or ocd and so on, to be simply one or more symptoms of the same cluster of signs of ‘mental illness’.



To get double blind studies to validate this connection between mental illness and hypoglycemia would require the cooperation of pharmaceutical companies because there are no institutions or organizations that can carry out medical research, which cannot generate some form of commercial profits for those institutions. Medical research have been thoroughly commercialized!! Even universities - who in the past carried out scientific research without a profit motive - are now dependent on ‘private industry’ to carry out research.



Besides other sources of medical evidence are found in hundreds of text book on biochemistry, which explains the mechanisms of nutritional biochemistry and its relation to many mental illnesses.



See for instance:
werbach,m.R.(1991), nutritional influences on mental illness, third line pres,inc.,tarzana,cal.



Fortunately, hypoglycemia cannot be treated by drugs, so the mainstream medicine does not recognize its existence! This happened to the history of ‘hyperactivity’, that was not medically recognized to exist in the past, until they accidentally discovered a drug (ritalin) that had the effect of calming down hyperactive kids. They renamed the condition as adhd to give it a medical imprimatur.



Furthermore, you don’t need any ‘experts’ or ‘professionals’ to go on a hypoglycemic diet, because it is simply going back to a natural diet, that cannot be commercially patented, monopolized or packaged and sold in supermarkets. The manufacture and distribution of nutritional and herbal supplements is one way of commercializing natural medicine, but see my article:

“hit or miss supplements for depression”

that shows some of its shortcomings. Supplements are still allied to the concept of “a pill for every ill”, that I want to get away from.



However, there is plenty of medical evidence for the connection between mental illness and hypoglycemia, if you rename ‘hypoglycemia’ with ‘insulin resistance’ or allied medical terms.



In medical conventional thinking ‘insulin resistance’ is associated with diabetes type ii, but it should be realized that although all diabetics have insulin resistance, many people with insulin resistance are not diabetic. Hypoglycemia may be considered a pre-diabetic or perhaps non-diabetic condition where the insulin resistance prevents the proper absorption and metabolism of glucose. It can easily develop into full-blown diabetes.



I have gathered much of the scientific evidence in “research evidence for hypoglycemia” at our web site and I suggest that you read it from the beginning to the end. There are about 36 pages of it.



Furthermore we also have a “search our web site” engine, that will bring you to any article that discusses the term being searched.






or google search "alcoholism hypoglycemia"

in other words the evidence is there, but those who should know, don't know and perhaps don't want to know.

Cheers
jur

jurriaan plesman, ba(psych), post grad. Dip. Clin. Nutr.

For more articles see free web site at
Hypoglycemia.Asn.Au

Jurriaan,
have you heard the old proverb about the five blind men introduced to the elephant for the first time?
Each blind man approached the elephant from a different direction.

The first one felt the animal’s tail and proclaimed, “an elephant is much like a snake.”

the second blind man felt the elephant’s leg and said “oh no, you are mistaken, an elephant is much more like a great tree trunk.”

the third blind man touched the beast’s belly first. He stated that both men before him were wrong, “an elephant is like a great barrel.”

the forth blind man having felt the beast’s ear, clamed all before him were wrong. “an elephant is much like a great sheet of leather.”

the fifth blind man felt the tusks and announced “all others are mistaken, an elephant is truly like a stone, smooth, cool and hard.”

which one of these blind men is wrong? Which one has perceived incorrectly the information available to him?
To the best of their ability each one was correct.

But each one only had part of the information.
And in turn, each one only had part of the answer.

Jurriaan,
we are more than the sum of our parts, and this problem of alcoholism/addiction is more than merely faulty receptors in our brains. It is that for sure, but it is more.

This program of aa has the best success rate of any approach ever conceived, and it does so by relying upon a power that lies outside of science. One does not have to believe that statement, one need only look at the facts.

I am a fan of approaches such as yours, but only as an addendum to the tried and true approach of admission of powerlessness, restitution of wrongs done and service to others. That simple set of spiritual tools have saved more hopeless sots like myself than any thing else in the history of the world. Science may someday change that equation, but it hasn’t done so yet.

One blind man to another.
Richard

Hi richard,

i am very familiar with your philosophy. I do not agree that aa has the best recovery rate. Please search our web site for "recovery rate", which will lead you to some studies on recovery rates of various drug rehabilitation programs. The most optimistic figure are between 5-15%.


But I also agree that "this problem of alcoholism/addiction is more than merely faulty receptors in our brains. It is that for sure, but it is more. "

however when we have a sick brain and faulty biochemistry we cannot get more than what we have.


This comes down to the relation between the body and the mind.

The traditional - and I must say the ‘romantic’ view - is that the mind can cure he body, and by being ‘spiritual’ we can somehow alter our biochemistry.


The true nature of the “power greater than myself” is my biochemistry. By getting to know this “power greater than myself” we can bring about the healing of the body.


I often use the analogy of the driver and his car, to describe the mind/body relationship.


If you drive a car you can go anywhere you like or decide where to go. Your values system and your ‘spirituality’ as it were, may cause you to believe and to become anything you want.


But when you car is broken down and you are in the middle of a desert, and with no one to help you to repair the car, you will be stuck in the middle of a desert and you may even die. It is the broken car that determines your destiny in life, and not you. It is the broken car that dominates your philosphy at the time.


The message is that with a well-functioning car you have total ‘free will’ to choose within a world of possibilities.

Thus only if you have a well-functioning body, capable of producing the correct neurotransmitters, you will have free will to believe in god or otherwise or choose any other lifestyle whatsoever. Your ‘spirituality’ may well depend on how healthy your body is.


Jurriaan plesman, ba(psych), post grad. Dip. Clin. Nutr.

That 5 to 15% rate is a tad high, I would put it at maybe 5 to 10% tops, but, no matter how one slices it, recovery, real long term recovery is very hard to come by. And my definition of long term recovery being 2 years without a drink.
The larger point being, no one has a good recovery rate in this business, no one! Not you, not us, not anybody!

Rational recovery clams an astonishing 75 to 85% recovery. But if one reads their copy carefully, that rate is compiled from selective members unverified clams. Hardly an accurate reflection of their true success rate.
Any one of us could take that approach and produce impressive results.
For profit organizations, as you so eloquently stated, are not interested in approaches that will not produce a profit, approaches like yours or ours. They clam fantastic success rates for their brand of sobriety as well. But inevitably their statistics don’t bare up under close scrutiny.
I don’t know what kind of success rate you and your approach clam, like you said, you have no imperial data to base a clam on.

Alcoholics anonymous, having been in business for over 60 years, has a very long track record. And that track record is sorry. But, and this is important, it has the best recovery rate at 5% to 10%.
Drunks mostly don’t get sober. They die wet!
They are one stubborn class of individual.

If there is a wet drunk out there reading this, I tell you this now, that if you follow the 12 steps as outlined in the program of alcoholics anonymous, and do so thoroughly and with the aid of a sponsor, you will get and stay sober. That is a promise.

People who’s lives are dedicated to science unnecessarily feel threatened or are openly hostile to the realm of spirituality. The tools they have honed through a lifetime of study do not apply there.
They dismiss the seeker of truths that lay outside of logic as merely practitioners of “the romantic view”. To the person who sight is limited to science alone, a spiritual solution to a spiritual disease is mere nonsense, nothing more.

But jurriaan, as a person of science, you must have an appreciation of facts, and the fact is that alcoholics anonymous has made a greater impact on the problem of untreated alcoholism than any other effort to date. Maybe someday science will come up with a pill for alcoholism, but it hasn’t done so yet.
We both are on the same side in this struggle, we do not need to have an antagonistic relationship. As I stated before, I include dietary information in the instructions I give the men I work with. The book “seven weeks to sobriety” is flawed in it’s basic assertion, but the dietary information is very good.

Our goals are the same, recovery from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. Our approaches may differ, but we can still be friends.

Richard