Also please explain why in no part of the bible is a woman aborting condemned.

Also, please explain why in many parts of the bible, advocating the death of fetus' and children is exulted and praised.

You successfuly evaded the answer.. If your god is so prolife.. Than explain why he kills children and the fetus all the time.

no, she's asking for an explanation for these events in the bible.



it's a seperate thread.

[quote"jlee"]moria:

i don't think abortion was a debate or even a concept back then. [/quote]

you are joking aren't you? Or are you one of those people who thinks abortion was pretty much invented with rvw? Abortion has existed waaay back in history - hippocrates wrote it and he was way before jesus. It was a concept. Now, if god has such a big problem with it, why doesn't he condemn it?

I am not judging anyone but to those whom think that jesus is okay with homicide is wrong. Whether it be by a gun or a scapel if you kill someone it it homicide and to that it is a sin... I as well think that you are taking the bible out of context, those bible verses are not ment to be thrown together with what ever verse you want to put them with to make your beleifs seems right, they are to be read in the order they are written which makes them fit into context with the writtings and beliefs of jesus, god, lord all of the above.. Personally I think you dont need to be asking us about what the bible means you need to seriously pray about it and it will come to you when jesus wants it to be revealed to you

What do you mean they are taken out of context? Can you read? It is word for word straight out of the bible.. There are diffrent versions of the bible so yours may be diffrent but crack one open and you'll see I took nothing out of context. The verses are right there.

why don't you stop beating around the bush and answer my freaking question! Yeah, maybe the people whose children were victim of god's slaughter weren't innocent but why punish the child for the parents sins? Isn't that why some of you christians are against abortion even in cases of rape? Because the "child" shouldn't be punished for the sins of their father? If your god is so prolife then there is no excuse for killing children at all, no matter what! Stop making excuses and either explain your god's motives or admit that he is not prolife and has nothing against abortion other than it @#$@ with his plans for that will be child! I'll give you time to go scurry to your pope and ask him how you should explain that.

"i wouldn't make fun of you if you told me your religion."
oh so I guess I have to be religious in order for you to not be rude.. I am not the one constantly being condescending.. You are. No one wants to answer my question because they don't have an answer! There is no explanation but the one they don't want to admit!

What do you think it is smarty? Read the post!

Is it so hard to read? The freaking question is for prolifers to explain how someone prolife could do such a thing as quoted above.. That's the question.

ah, because you say so, right? Because you obviously speak for jesus when the bible doesn't, right? After all, how else would you know god's will when the bible doesn't show it, and on the other hand shows lots of examples to the contrary, as bd's post showed?
the fetus is no more a "someone" than a tumor or a hydatidiform ole is. So exactly what sense does your claim make, other than showing that you are good at emotional postulations?
so, when god praises the smashing of kids heads against rocks, that is not really what god means?
jesus already did, having shown me that he is pro-choice. So I guess that settles it, then.

lol. Bd, you might as well give up. Pro-lifers never admits to anything. Thats a cardinal rule of theirs, as the moment they admit anything about god not being 100% for all fetuses that have ever existed, they feel their argument and their faith is in danger. That, of course, will condemn them to hell, so because their "faith" is based on fear, it doesn't matter what reality is.

Now, the rest of us christians, whose faith is based on love for jesus are not as hampered and we can trust that god won't lie to us and will show is the truth. Much better way to live, in my opinion. I enjoy a much more rich relationship to god than those whose relationship is based on fear.

In that, I truly pitty the pro-lifers.

never would I advocate homicide at all. I believe the question which started this thread was "religious pro-lifers, please explain". I therefore assumed that people who use religion to support their pro-life arguments would be able to answer my question.
first, I have never and will never praise children being murdered. However, there are many, many instances in the bible where it has been advocated. God "himself", in the bible, has advocated the death and destruction of the "unborn" and of children. Especially in the old testament. Secondly, given this truth, if one is to use religion as the justification for their arguments, how do they explain that the bible, especially in the old testament, advocates the deaths of fetus' and children. I am wondering how someone who uses religion as their justification for their arguments can explain why they are using the bible to support their argument when the bible advocates the destruction of the very "lives" they are claiming to want to save.
as this thread was started to ask about religion with regards to the abortion issue, please feel free to comment. This *is* the debate forum so we can bring up controversial topics for discussion. Religion is just one of these topics. Also, we asked you to keep religion out of a place where it did not belong. As this thread was started with the specific intention of discussion religious issues, it does belong here.

rotflmao. Once you were put on the actual spot, the tail goes down between your legs and you slink off with false bravado. How lame.

Double post

Ok I will take what you wrote.


1st

"the glory of israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived."

now does this sound as though it is going to be a good thing or a bad thing according to god?


"even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.

It will be a terrible day when I turn and leave you alone. I have watched israel become as beautiful as tyre. But now israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."

well here it sounds as though abortion and infantacide was rife in judea durring these days.


"o lord what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. "

it seems to me that isreal found that children were not convienient.


The lord says "all their wickedness began at gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

it seems god has decided.... Hmmm if they are going to kill the children I have chosen to send them... When they choose which children to love, I will make them die.


Numbers 31:17-19

"now kill all the boys and all the woman who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves"

well this shows how god hates homosexuality, sexual promiscutity and hails the virtues of remaining chaste... And how gods society should not accept homosexuality and sexual promiscuity.


Hosea 13:16-

"the people of samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their god. They will be killed by an invading army, their little one's dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant woman ripped open by swords"

all sin carrys consiquences..... This is a prophesy of an invaiding army but again "little ones dashed to death" and "pregnant woman ripped open by swords" dosnt exactly seem to me to be a prophesy of a good thing.


2 kings 13:16
"at that time menahem destroyed the town of tappuah and all the surrounding countryside as far as tirzah, because it's citizens refused to surrender the town. He killed the entire population and ripped open the pregnant woman."

again this is not a good thing, being destroyed, killed and pregnant women being slaughtered along with there child... Is a punishment not a reward!


If you want to be destroyed, killed and slaughtered then sinning against god seems to me to be a way of achieveing that.


"psalm 136:10
"give thanks to him who killed the firstborn of egypt"

egypt had sinned against god by enslaving his people, he did not kill the first born of his own people but those who had sinned against him and his chosen people.... Thus again he punishes egypt.... He is not condoning but punishing!


Psalm 137:9

"happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!"

this should be taken in its full context of

psalm 137:

remember, lord, [what] the edomites said
that day at jerusalem:
";destroy it! Destroy it
down to its foundations!"; 8 daughter babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who pays you back
what you have done to us. 9 happy is he who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rocks."

i want us to see the history behind what is going on here. And if you could try and picture it for a moment in your mind - if you can close your eyes it might help you to try and picture the scene that is before us. And what we can see by our mind's eye is an army round about jerusalem, soldiers gathering around its walls, and they are plundering the walls, they have come into the city, there is fire, there is smoke rising from the midst of it, they are slaying the people, there is rape, there is pillage, the city is burning in embers. But we see something else, because within the city and around the city we see a group of people that are not being harmed. We see a group of neighbouring people, citizens who are called the edomites. And as the children of judah, as their flesh burns, as the cry of the children comes out of the walls of that city, as they're destroyed, as the whole of the holy city is wrecked, this nation, this people, these citizens the edomites, are standing around idly by, watching as it all goes on. But they're doing more than that, they're not simply passively standing by, but the word of god would lead us to believe that they are actually shouting, taunting, encouraging the babylonians as they're sacking the city, to burn the city, to destroy the city, to do their worst to the city, to leave not one rock or stone upon another, not one jewish life alive. How do we know that? If you were to go back to psalm 137 and verses 7 to 9 you would hear the cry of the edomites - picture them as they stand round jerusalem, they're shouting 'raze it! Raze it!', they're calling, 'dash their little children against the stones! Wipe them out, make sure that not one jew survives!'.


Who are this people the edomites? My, if we were to look and go into the history of the word of god and find out who these awful people, this treacherous cruel people were, you know it would surprise us. Because, believe it or not, the edomites are the brothers of the judeans. Those that are doing these terrible things, these neighbours that are standing round, they are the edomites, they are the descendants, the word of god tells us, of esau, jacob's older brother.

2nd

you are not god, you can not choose who lives or dies.... It is a sin to do so, for this is his domain not yours!

Izzy.. Why is he punishing people by killing the children? I never saw anything about where the children have sinned! How would you have liked it if you were killed because your mom was a hooker? I don't care if it's a punishment because he is punishing the wrong people, and don't prolife people against abortion in case of rape say "it's wrong to kill the child for the sins of their father". If he loved children so much, he would punish the sinner and not the children if children are supposed to be so innocent.

First off if you have to come at me with slander and critisism to justify or make your point, beliefs, whatever they are look better than mine because you cant come up with something constructive you need to go do a little more research on "your facts", I dont have to go see and ask my "people" I refer to the bible itself, I said taking it out of context is because you have taken 6 or more verses and put them together to make it sound like it is agreeing with you lets put the verses before and after those verse together and see how they sound...I am reading out of the new kings james versionn, references red letter edition
hosea 9 (headline is jedgement on israels sin) 9: do not rejoice, o israek, with joy like other peoples, for you have played the harlot against you god you have made love for hire on every threshing floor. The threshing floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her, the shall not dwell in the lord"s land, but ephraim shall return to egypt, and shall eat unclean things in assyria, they shall not offer wine offerings to the lord, nor shall the sacrifices be pleasing to him, it shall be like bread of mourners to them ,all who eat it shall be defiled, for their bread shall be for their own life, it shall not come into the house of the lord, what will you do in the appointed day, and in the day of the feast iof the lord? For indeed they are gone because of the destruction. Egypt shall gather them up memphis shall bury them, nettles shall oposses their valuables of silver, thorns shall be in the tents, tyhe days of punishment have come, the days ofrecompense have come, isreal knows! The prophet is a fool, the spritual man is insane, because if the greatness of your iniquity and great enmity, the watchman of ephraim is with my god, but the prophet is a fowlers snare in all his ways, enmity in the house of his god, they are deeply corrupted, as in the days of gibeath he wil remeber their iniquity, he will punish their sins, I found isreal like grapes in the wilderness, I saw your fathers as the firstfruitson the fig tree in its first season, but they went to baal peor, and seperated them selves to that shame, they became an abomination like the things they loves, as for ephraim their glory shall fly away like a bird, no birth, no pregnancy, no conception! Thought hey bring up their children yet I will bereave them to the last man, yes , woe to them when I depart from them, just as I saw ephraim like tyre, planted in a pleasent place, so ephraim will bring out his children to the mirder, give them . O lord, what will you give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breast! All their wickedness is in gilgal, for there I hated them because of the evil of their deeds, I will drive them from my house I will love them nomore all their princes are rebellious ephraim is stricken their root is dried up they shall bear no fruit,, yes were they to bear children I would kill the darlings of their womb my god will cast them away beacuse the did not obey him, and they shall be wanderers of the nations.



That kinda puts a different look into things if you read what goes along with it instead of the verse you need to justify your "?", thats what is mean by taking it out of context you pulled one verse out of 17 verses that make that one

You are not listening to me..I realize the people of the town have sinned but why are they taking it out on the children? Miscarrying wombs? He is purposefuly giving them miscarriages.. And intentional miscarriage is what? Say it with me.. Abortion. If the fetus is so innocent why is he taking his anger out on it?