C-reactive Protein (crp) Levels And Anxiety Posted: 10-07-04 12:59pm
Did anybody of the panick attacks patients
test their levels of crp
(a cheap and useful test to determine the
level of systemic arterial
inflammation)?
It seems that a lot of patients with
symptoms and syndroms whose
cause is unknown, and that are told that
their problems are due to
stress and anxiety have high levels of
this protein in their bloodstream.
Since there is some controversy about the
real causes of anxiety, it
would be interesting to hear testimonies
from the patients themselves
about these levels.
Probably testing the crp level in at least
two different clinics would be
best to overcome the possibility that the
results are not conclusive or
that there was a sample handling problem.
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lyricbaritone
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 31 Location: Minnesota
Posted: 10-09-04 08:48am
Are you doing research on this topic?
I'm certainly not one to rule out what you
say, and agree with you that it would be
interesting from a scientific standpoint
to find out about this.
I've asked you this before, and you've not
responded, but i'm curious -- what is
your affiliation? The reason I ask what
your affiliation is is because you may
have connections to resources that the
rest of us don't. If you truly are in a
medical field, and what you say is true,
you should be able to find many
sources of funding for a clinical study on
this issue. I haven't seen studies like
this anywhere in the literature.
Most of the literature i've seen says that
anxiety, depression, anger, etc., leads to
an increase in crp. Increased crp levels
over time can lead to serious heart
problems and other problems. All of
these studies, however, were done on a
mixture of patients with and without
anxiety because the tact of the studies
were to determine the effect of stress
factors on otherwise healthy individuals.
Nowhere, however, were diagnosed anxiety
sufferers solely tested for crp level.
In order for this to be a successful
study, I think there needs to be three
groups tested for crp: anxiety sufferers
with chest pain and heart symptoms,
anxiety sufferers without these symptoms,
and non-anxiety sufferers.
There it is -- now all we need is someone
to do the research!
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fgautier
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 11
Posted: 10-09-04 12:45pm
Crp doesn't lead to heart problems because
it is a just marker of cardiovascular
disease. Actually, more of a vascular
disease marker
than heart disease (which may be secondary
to the vascular problems).
A marker is not a physical cause that can
lead to subsequent dysfunctions
but rather a measurement that something
from a physical point of view is
not right.
Nobody can state that anxiety (again,
somebody has to come and quantify
it before talking about it) leads to
increased crp levels. For this you need
proof that the anxiety symptoms have to be
present for a while long
before the crp levels are increased.
That means, to pretend that anxiety leads
to increased crp levels you
need to find a significant number of
anxiety patients with normal crp
levels.
The significance of crp has already been
studied in the large a
academic centers, but that doesn't mean
that they are published.
Just look at the resistance to any post
that tries to make the endothelium
dysfunction and its complications known to
the general public.
I agree with the clasification of the
groups of study populations that you
suggest. And the patients may need to
start doing their own research if
they want to stop chasing their tails with
the all in your mind anxiety
talks.
And they should understand that looking
for help towards doctors that
say that their brain is dysfunctional is
not helpful. The reason is because
the medicine is incomplete as a profession
and it is fraudulent as a
science because is trying to cover up
everything that cannot be fixed by it.
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sandyallen
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4580
Posted: 10-09-04 13:10pm
It definitely wouldn't hurt to check this
out! This person could be onto
something! We all know that stress and
anxiety does effect the cardio, the high
protein could have something to do with
this.
Sincerely,
sandy
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lyricbaritone
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 31 Location: Minnesota
Posted: 10-09-04 13:57pm
fgautier
wrote:
and the patients may need to
start doing their own research if they
want to stop chasing their tails with the
all in your mind anxiety talks.
And they should understand that looking
for help towards doctors that
say that their brain is dysfunctional is
not helpful. The reason is because
the medicine is incomplete as a profession
and it is fraudulent as a
science because is trying to cover up
everything that cannot be fixed by
it.
those are some pretty strong statements.
I think that's the sort of thing
that is getting people upset, rather than
the possibility of endothelial dysfunction
playing a role in these symptoms. Many
individuals are able to overcome their
symptoms through current medical means,
including both psychological and
phsychiatric. Certainly, western
medicine has its pitfalls, but I think to
call it "fraudulent" is a bit extreme.
Let's not throw the baby out with the
bathwater here!
In spite of your strong tone against the
mental health profession, I do think that
you are correctly warning us not to rely
solely on psychiatry and psychology to
address our problems. Treatment for
anxiety needs to be a part of a bigger
picture, treating mind, body, and spirit.
But until modern medicine -- the only
system we have right now -- can confirm
these statements, we're stuck with what we
have right now, which is research
primarily based on brain chemistry and
behavioral patterns. Thankfully, these
work in treating the symptoms for many
individuals.
My only concern with chasing every new
"discovery" in relation to anxiety is the
unhealthy response that many anxiety
sufferers have in this regard. Many
people become extremely fearful that they
have life-threatening diseases, and that
generates even further worry. Knowledge
may be power, but if that knowledge isn't
helpful, then what good is it? To sit
here thinking about all the terrible
diseases I might have prevents me from
living a happy and fulfilling life.
What do you know of that can bolster
endothelial function? I have read that
certain enzymes and amino acids (such as
l-arginine) encourage healthy vascular
response. Anything else you'd like to
share here? I'm also curious who is
researching this, even if it isn't
published. What are your sources?
Another point that comes to mind, getting
back to the crp indicator, is what is the
cause of death of most anxiety sufferers.
Again, a study such as this has not been
performed as far as I know. If a
majority of people with anxiety, who treat
it and live symptomless for years, end up
having heart problems and stroke, then
that's something that we really should
know! If we answer that question, we can
target these problems.
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fgautier
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 11
Posted: 10-12-04 08:15am
The endothelial function can be preserved
for all your life as long as you
do not have arterial and heart congenital
problems.
You did mention some things to bolster the
endothelial function, but the
most important thing is to prevent the
deterioration of it due to a
defective vascular growth factor gene.
The only real thing so far is to engage in
a genetic treatment clinical trial
as early in your life as possible (best
before 10 yrs, which is usually long
before you get any symptoms like "anxiety"
and others) to try correcting the
congenital vascular abnormalities before
endothelial dysfunction advances.
Therefore, as long as there is no
widespread vascular and heart testing
in the children, and I do not mean only in
the wealthiest countries
such as usa, uk and others, there will
always be medical tragedies
later on.
The thing with psychiatry is that it uses
biased and superficial public
labelings (eg. Mentally disabled, etc) on
people that are suffering much
more than mentally. It virtually breaks
the empathy of the more fortunate
towards the less fortunate (eg. People
committed into psychiatric yards)
by and with the secrecy and power of this
profession.
You can say whatever you want, but hiding
the suffering does not
diminish it!
This is why I am pleading for a merge of
the psychiatry into the
palliative care where the human dignity is
still being preserved.
Of course, in order to preserve the status
of psychiatry, there are
people whose problems are ignored although
they might still get a
chance if everything would have more
transparency and treated in
time. Until then, these people (or the
people from the poorer countries
in the future) will be medical casualties.
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fgautier
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 11
Posted: 10-12-04 08:35am
Forgot to say it. If you are an anxiety
sufferer and you have kids,
you should probably do some research on
which medical centers offer
gene therapy clinical trials in
cardiology.
You could start with the hospital list
from the link:
http://www.Usnews.Com/usnews/health/ho
sptl/rankings/specihqcard.Htm
if you find any, go there and test your
children for possible heart
problems. It's better to be safe than
sorry.
