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the Nonsense of Homeopathy

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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
the Nonsense of Homeopathy
Posted: 06-27-04 18:32pm

Homeopathic medicine has existed since the late 1700s and in the us since 1939 as a completely unregulated entity. The use of toxic metals such as arsenic, mercury, and plant extracts have abounded without any clinical (read double blind placebo controlled trials). In the absence of homeopathy conducting these studies, over the past 5 years concerned physicians and researchers have done so and have conclusively demonstrated that homeopathic treatment is sham therapy but with the added benefit of having a homeopath spending time with the patient giving assurances and listening to the patient. Certainly the physicians and chiropractors can learn several things from the homeopaths outside of any useful clinically effective medicine or therapies.
The following demonstrate the dangers of homeopathy along with conclusive evidence of ineffectiveness:
am j contact dermat. 2002 sep;13(3):148-52. Contact dermatitis to botanical extracts.
Pediatr dermatol. 2004 mar-apr;21(2):160-3. Childhood bullous pemphigoid: report of a case with life-threatening course during homeopathy treatment. While the role of homeopathy in triggering the disease remains unclear, our observation attests to the potential life-threatening course of childhood bp in instances where appropriate treatment is withheld.
Acta derm venereol. 2004;84(3):223-6. Systemic contact dermatitis from herbal and homeopathic preparations used for herpes virus treatment.
Med clin (barc). 2004 mar 6;122(Cool:318-9. [fatal acute pancreatitis in a patient who received an homeopathic treatment] [article in spanish] barquero romero j, redondo lopez jm, galeano diaz f, perez miranda m.
J toxicol clin toxicol. 2003;41(7):963-7. Arsenic toxicity from homeopathic treatment. Homeopathic medicine is commonly believed to be relatively harmless. However, treatment with improperly used homeopathic preparations may be dangerous
rev hosp clin fac med sao paulo. 2003 nov-dec;58(6):324-31. Epub 2004 jan 28. A critical review of the possible benefits associated with homeopathic medicine. Conclusions: as a result of the recent scientific research on homeopathy, it can be concluded that ample evidence exists to show that the homeopathic therapy is not scientifically justifiable.
Br j clin pharmacol. 2003 nov;56(5):562-8. Erratum in: br j clin pharmacol. 2004 jan;57(1):117. Ultramolecular homeopathy has no observable clinical effects. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled proving trial of belladonna 30cresults: no significant group differences in proving rates were observed [belladonna provers n = 14 (13.9%); placebo provers n = 15 (14.3%); mean difference -0.4%, 95% confidence interval -9.3, 10.1] based on intention to treat analysis. Primary outcome was not affected by seasonality or the individual's attitude to complementary medicine. Conclusion: ultramolecular homeopathy had no observable clinical effects.
Dermatol ther. 2003;16(2):93-7. Homeopathy in dermatology. To date, however, there is no convincing evidence for a therapeutic effect. There are only a few controlled trials, most of them with negative results. The few studies with positive results have not been reproduced. Acceptance by the patient seems largely based on counseling and emotional care rather than on objective responses to the homeopathic drugs.
J clin psychiatry. 2003 mar;64(3):282-7. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of classical homeopathy in generalized anxiety disorder. Results: significant (p <.05) improvement in most measures, including the ham-a, was observed in both the active treatment and placebo groups, yet no group effect was observed. Conclusion: the effect of homeopathic treatment on mental symptoms of patients with generalized anxiety disorder did not differ from that of placebo.
J altern complement med. 2003 feb;9(1):113-32. Quality assessment of physical research in homeopathyconclusions: most physical experiments of homeopathic preparations were performed with inadequate controls or had other serious flaws that prevented any meaningful conclusion. Except for those of high quality, all experiments should be repeated using stricter methodology and standardization before they are accepted as indications of special features of homeopathic potencies.
Thorax. 2003 apr;58(4):317-21 individualised homeopathy as an adjunct in the treatment of childhood asthma: a randomised placebo controlled trial. Conclusions: this study provides no evidence that adjunctive homeopathic remedies, as prescribed by experienced homeopathic practitioners, are superior to placebo in improving the quality of life of children with mild to moderate asthma in addition to conventional treatment in primary care.
J r soc med. 2003 feb;96(2):60-5. Homeopathic arnica for prevention of pain and bruising: randomized placebo-controlled trial in hand surgery. The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.
Br j clin pharmacol. 2002 dec;54(6):577-82. A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy. It is concluded that the best clinical evidence for homeopathy available to date does not warrant positive recommendations for its use in clinical practice.
Prescrire int. 2001 oct;10(55):156. Homeopathic arnica: just a placebo. [no authors listed] four placebo-controlled trials of homeopathic dilutions of arnica in treating trauma have been sufficiently robust to give interpretable results. In all of them homeopathic arnica was no more effective than the placebo.
Bmc complement altern med. 2001;1(1):12. Epub 2001 dec 31. A systematic review of the quality of homeopathic clinical trials conclusions: clinical homeopathic research is clearly in its infancy with most studies using poor sampling and measurement techniques, few subjects, single sites and no replication. Many of these problems are correctable even within a "holistic" paradigm given sufficient research expertise, support and methods.
Therapie. 2001 jul-aug;56(4):397-402. [homeopathic specialties as substitutes for benzodiazepines: double-blind vs. Placebo study] [article in french] no statistically significant difference between homeopathic drugs and placebo was observed for the main outcome or for the secondary outcomes.
Rheumatology (oxford). 2001 sep;40(9):1052-5. A randomized controlled trial of homeopathy in rheumatoid arthritis. Conclusions: we found no evidence that active homeopathy improves the symptoms of ra, over 3 months, in patients attending a routine clinic who are stabilized on nsaids or dmards.
J r soc med. 2002 apr;95(4):189-91. Can homeopaths detect homeopathic medicines by dowsing? A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Mccarney r, fisher p, spink f, flint g, van haselen r. Academic unit, royal london homoeopathic hospital, london wc1n 3hr, uk. These results, wholly negative, add to doubts whether dowsing in this context can yield objective information.
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PattyV

Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1103
Location: Chicago area
Get Ready For the Backlash!!
Posted: 06-27-04 20:00pm

I hope you are ready to recieve a whole lot of nasty replies.I'm not saying you're right or wrong,but,them's fightin' words!!!
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2ferano

Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 3717

Posted: 06-27-04 20:57pm

Lol. If it wasn't effective at all, no one would use it! Plain and simple.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
Bring 'em On
Posted: 06-27-04 23:17pm

If homeopathy had demonstrated just a tinge of responsibility in the past by demonstrating proof of what they claim to be able to accomplish, we would not be having this discussion now would we. Medicine would have absorbed their therapies and incorporated them into daily treatment. Yet, medicine views homeopathy as using toxins claiming to be able to cure, with little to show in the way of proof for their efforts over the past 300 years.
Just because an unregulated wild wild west industry exists that can make people feel good by talking with them, this does not equal miracle cures claimed by homeopathy. Just because some people do not understand homeopaths can say absolutely anything and make any claim they wish without having to prove their therapies, the placebo effect is at least 30%, and the sustaining of the field is largely due to the placebo effect as demonstrated in the studies above.
Hey, if you want to pay the bucks for this non-sense, I do not fault you, as long as you know the scientific literature surrounding homeopathy does not support their claims. Could it that the value of such treatments is all in your heads? Hmmmmm..... Food for thought.
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India
Some Sense About Homeopathic Medicine
Posted: 07-01-04 05:28am

Science yet has to define the mechanism of action of homeopathic medicine because as of today it does not have a measure for it.
Homeopathic medicine can be proved by the cause and effects.
In a case of sinusitis for example with a patient having an elevated eosinophil count, haziness of para nasal sinuses revealed in an x ray, the changes all due to allergic rhinitis,after the usage of homeopathic medicine apart from the patient expressing relief of nasal blocking, sneezings, nasal discharge, post nasal dropping of mucus, heaviness of the head, dullness etc. (which the skeptics like algosdoc do not want to believe), the same above investigations can be repeated and the results observed.
If this is not science what is science?
The attack on homeopathic medicine is because in the prescribed remedy there is no original substance from which it is made. That is the reason why when you talk of a double-blind study it is difficult to convince. Fine, today science is unable to show how the imprint is being transferred to every succeding dilution. Till then you do not want people to benefit from homeopathic medicine?
Also as a homeopathic physician I fail to understand how I can "listen & assure" a patient who happens to be an infant. And after this would like to know, how they are being relieved.
Talking about placebo effect, I wonder how this works on animals.

So enough of the nonsense of the skeptics about homeopathic medicine.

Dr.Venugopal gouri.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
Laziness And Fear
Posted: 07-01-04 08:59am

Homeopathic treatments are ideal to be subjected to double blind placebo controlled studies. There can be absolutely no rational argument made otherwise and the failure to conduct these studies demonstrates laziness in those who practice homeopathy and fear that their scam will be exposed. Science is the demonstration of effect above and beyond placebo. If ya got it, show it. If not, it ain't science. Homeopathy certainly has the potential to make people feel better, but it is not because of their potions and toxins. It is because they sit down, take time, talk the talk as though they have proof, and convince people they will feel better after the toxins/potions are administered. No proof mind you, just good salesmanship, and the placebo effect.
I have no issue with those who engage in homeopathy for placebo effects since in many cases, a placebo can be a powerful tool. But make no mistake regarding the "science" of homeopathy being the tool of treatment or a cure.
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India

Posted: 07-01-04 14:15pm

Homeopathic medicine has been proved enough through its treatment and cure and pathological changes which get better after every prescription.
Pray tell me how, you can one be a good "salesman" and give relief to a problem of an infant? An animal? Etc.
Till then keep your hyptheses aside and concentrate on your work and the percentage of improvement in the nucleopasties you are doing would be better.
Till then the skeptics should keep their laziness, unwarranted premise and nonsense to themselves.
Double-blind or blind to rationale and cure, the choice is one's own.
Dr.Venugopal gouri.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
the Choice Is Indeed That of the Patient...
Posted: 07-01-04 18:58pm

One who treats infants, animals, and adults would be known as a quack in our country. The choice is between proof of efficacy and snake oil.
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India

Posted: 07-01-04 21:02pm

Homeopathic medicine has been tested on infants, adults and animals. The issue is being diverted by avoiding logic, that is all.
Snake oil, voodoo, ha, ha, cannot accept facts.

Dr.Venugopal gouri.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
Jerry Mcguire
Posted: 07-01-04 21:13pm

Show me 'da money. If you have the science to demonstrate efficacy of homeopathy on people, then show it. If not, feel free to continue practicing on animals in india. Do us all a favor....
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India

Posted: 07-01-04 21:21pm

Enough evidence has already been given about the efficiency.
Animals, jungles is fine and one is talking about countries that is a racist remark and severely condemn it.
This is the second time in the discussion that reference to countries has come, I have been patient enough to ignore once but this is racism and chauvinism to say the least.
Do confine to discussion about the issue if one can.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
No Racism Here Buddy
Posted: 07-01-04 23:20pm

Just looking for some credible data which you seem to not be able to provide. I frankly am astonished any "doctor" would ever claim proof of a technique based on treating animals. I must assume it is a cultural thing which is perhaps unique to india. Our doctors do not treat animals and people. Must be an indian thing. Our doctors perform the basic research, extend this to phase I and ii clinical trials, then on to fda approved phase iii trials, then if there is enough scientific evidence, then we give approval to such treatments. Even after approved, our post marketing phase iv trials give additional data which sometimes results in a drug or treatment being removed from the market. But we do not claim to have effective treatments based on how infants and animals respond. Must be an indian thing. Show me some credible data: double blind placebo controlled studies. If you want to give advice over the internet, you better be damned sure you have the data to support your position. Otherwise real physicians will call a spade a spade and show you to be what you are.
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India

Posted: 07-02-04 02:12am

Homeopathic physicians treat humans. For skeptics who do believe that homeopathic medicines are just a placebo and heal only on faith, the medicines have been tested on animals too. No where have I referred that homeopathic physicians treat both animals and human beings. And it is audacious to talk about any partricular country during some other discussion. The homeopathic treatment as such is same all over the world. As far as my credentials are concerned, you can always refer to central council for homeopathy, new delhi, india who can put an end to the nonsense.

Dr. Venugopal gouri.
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algosdoc

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 186
Wait...
Posted: 07-02-04 08:37am

You referred to a council in india....Isn't that a racist statement?
You did indeed state as your proof that homeopathy works in animals and in humans. How would you know if you do not do this? Do you have scientific proof? By the way, homepathic credentials by some indian council are not worth the paper they are written on if you do not have proof your brand of medicine is effective.
Where is the proof india?
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Venugopal

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 192
Location: India

Posted: 07-02-04 13:28pm

Well then, if homeopathic medicine is just a placebo how would it show its effect on infants and animals?
Homeopathic medicine has also been given to animals to prove to many skeptics that it is more than a placebo.
Nowhere have I said that I have treated animals.
Homeopathic physicians treat infants, children and adults.
There are some veterinarians who also use homeopathic medicine to treat animals.
Central council of homeopathy, new delhi, india , is the governing body for homeopathic medicine in india, supervising research, looking after the curriculum of the universities and programs on homeopathic medicine, having a recognizing homeopathic physicians and having a registrar of the same.
Homeopathic research is going on all around the world and not necessarily in india and with the same principles all over.

What does one mean by "proof india"? - irrational comment.

If one cannot understand the above it is difficult to explain anything.
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