Gout

Cucumber (ph=3~4) and tomatoes (ph=4~5) are bad for gout. They are too acidic and may trigger gout.

I am new to the concept of acidic/alkaline food.

I am confused by different classification of food under the acidic or alkaline. I have come across articles that say although certain food is acidic by nature, but makes the body more alkaline when they are consumed and broken down by the body.

An example of such articles is
http://www.He althquestradio.Com/lib_phtesting.Html
where it says
"lemons and oranges are obviously acid. However we are talking about the end product of digestion, not the state of the fruit as it is eaten. When you eat any food, the body uses the nutrients, vitamins, and minerals contained in the food and eliminates the parts that are not useable. Yet, there is a part that is digested , but not used immediately - we call this 'ash'. It is similar to the ash left after a log has been burned in your file place. This ash can be either acid or alkaline. The ash from fruits and vegetables is alkaline although the food itself may have been acid. The alkaline minerals in ash can be stored in the alkaline reserve to buffer acids in the future. Remember, in order to remain healthy or improve your health, the ph of your body must be slightly alkaline".

According to the same article, cucumber and tomato falls under the category of "some common alkaline ash foods", which I assume is not bad for gout. Wondering if anyone can provide better insight to this?

One other thing was that I was told by the doctor who first diagnosed me with gout 8 years ago, that tomato is high in purine, and hence bad for gout, is this correct? I am doubtful about this because despite my regular episode of gout attack, I had recently made a business trip to the uk, where I had 1 to 2 tomato for breakfast on daily basis for a period of 5 weeks. During that 5 weeks, I did not have a single attack, when my other meals consist of some red meat. But then, I had 2 very bad attack on the 2 occassions when I had those small cherry-tomatoes back home. I am unsure if it was coincidental, but I have since stayed off these little cute tomotoes, but continues to take the regular tomatoes.

Hi yt,

there are two sources of acidity/alkalinity in foods and drinks:
* the acids that leave no ash when burnt.
* the minerals that leave ashes when burnt. They include alkaline ashes (sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, selenium ash) and acid ashes (chloride, phosphorus and sulfur ash).

There are two schools of thought about the impact of foods and drinks on the ph of our bodies:
s1. The ph of a foods and drinks in their natural states is what counts. For example, tomatoes have ph=4~5. Therefore tomatoes are acid food.
S2. Ignore the acids that leave no ash. The minerals that leave ashes are the only ones that impact our body ph. For example, tomatoes have more alkaline ashes than acid ashes, therefore, tomatoes are alkaline food.

S2 has some problems. For example:
* first of all, we eat tomatoes and not tomato ash.
* before tomatoes are digested and absorbed in the intestine, their ph have to be raised to 7 in duodenum (first part of small intestine). This requires alkaline pancreatic juice, therefore, tomatoes use up some of the body's alkaline store. Furthermore, when acids in tomatoes are metabolized they produce co2. Unlike burning the acids in tomatoes in the open space where co2 disappears in the thin air, co2 is trapped inside our bodies and turns into carbonic acid (h2co3) and lowers our body ph. Hence, tomatoes are acid food.
* commercial vinegar is 4~8% solution of acetic acid (hc2h3o2) in water which leaves no ash when burnt. If s2 is correct, we can safely replace drinking water with high strength of acetic acid in water. If we try this, I am sure we will get sick very quickly. Hence, s2 cannot be correct.
* when we consume acidic foods or drinks, the acids in them, or their metabolites, compete with uric acid (ua) for excretion in the kidneys, reduce the amount of ua excreted, and elevate the blood ua levels. This can cause the imbalance of the ua levels between the blood and the joint fluid and result in shedding of the protein coatings on monosodium urate (msu) crystals in the problem joints to trigger gout attacks. If s2 is correct, tomatoes should not trigger gout attacks. But they do.
Therefore s2 is incorrect.

Cherry tomatoes produce fruits earlier (in 60 days) than larger tomatoes, e,g. Beefsteak (in 100 days). Therefore, cherry tomatoes have shorter photosynthesis life and produce more potent gout triggering acidic fruits. The ph of cherry tomato is 4.0, beefsteak 4.6, roma and vita gold 5.1, and super marzano 5.2 that means cherry tomatoes are 4 times as acidic as beefsteak, 12.6 times as roma and vita gold, and 15.8 times as super marzano. This explains why little cute cherry tomatoes triggered your gout whereas larger ones did not.

As to what your doctor told you that "tomato is high in purines, and hence bad for gout", I think he meant: "tomato elevates the blood ua level hence it is bad for gout." tomatoes are low in purines. They trigger gout due to its low ph.

Hope I answered your questions.

Many thanks jyy2, and wow, I am impressed with the information you have. Where did you manage to get all these information? I did some searching myself earlier, but got nowhere close.

Hmmm... Just thinking aloud, so based on s1, the generalisation of most fruits and vegetables are alkaline and meat and carbohydrates are acidic is not correct. We need to really look at each food individually. On top of that, we also need to be aware of food that are high in purine. My life cannot get more complex than this.

Another question, if you do not mind. I read somewhere that the shedding of the protein coatings on monosodium urate (msu) crystals may be triggered by a drastic change in blood ph. Do you know if it goes both way? Either the blood become too acidic or too alkaline suddenly.

Thanks.

Hi yt,

lowering of the blood and joint fluid ph, either gradually or suddenly, can cause the shedding of the protein coatings on urate (msu) crystals and trigger gout attacks. This can be caused by the intake of acidic and acid forming substances, or by some other means. Some known gout triggers are:

* tomatoes (ph=4~5), dill pickles (ph=3.2~3.7), cucumbers (ph=5~6) and carbonated drinks (ph=2~3) -- they are low in ph.
* aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid), niacin (nicotinic acid) and alcohol (metabolizes to co2 thus carbonic acid) -- they are all acids.
* vigorous exercise -- it lowers the ph at the joints due to the extra production of lactic acid.
* type 2 diabetes -- due to the lack of insulin, the body is unable to burn sucrose for fuel. As the consequence, the body burns fat for fuel and produces excess amount of ketones, acidic substance.
* starvation, low carb diet and rapid weight loss -- the body burns excess amount of fat and produces too much acidic ketones.
* injuries, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, tenosynovitis, etc. -- they cause the deterioration of tissues at the joints and lowers their ph.
* emotional stress, serious illness, hospitalization and surgery -- the unhealthy states that degrade the joint fluids and lower their ph.
* sleep -- gout attacks occur most often at night (12-2 a.M.) because the stomach stops producing juice in sleep and causes acid tide in the body.

Keep the body ph up, it prevents gout attacks.

I try to avoid food rich in purines, but even if I do eat such, I don't get anymore attacks - been a year since last bad episode. The answer? Can't prove it scientifically and it probably only works for me. This is a fasting and detoxification regimen, plus the magic mushroom. I get plenty of foot pain, aches etc but no gout! I'll eat my words if gout returns and post an apology. Excuse me, I feel quite light headed...

Sorry jyy2 but I cannot understand then why fruits are a recommended component of an anti uric acid diet, arent the fruits acid (i mean they have a low ph) ?

Gustavo.-

Anthocyanins in fruits are beneficial to gout. For example, cherries are high in anthocyanins. They are anti-inflammatory and can lower the blood uric acid level. On the other hand, the low ph in fruits is bad for gout. For example, tomatoes, apple juice, ... Have low ph and are known to trigger gout attacks when consumed in large amount. Therefore, some fruits are beneficial to gout and some are detrimental. The best thing to do is to track down which fruits cause you problems and avoid them.

Thanks, I knew you had an answer
are you a physician?

Gustavo.-

No, I am not. I just took the research into my own hands after the medicines failed to help my 27-year old worsening gout. By the way, you can find more gout info at http://www.Icuredmygout.Org . Regards

Very interesting...
I am not a physician either but it seems (without knowing enough I know, maybe I should shut my mouth) that your gout is not the typical case.

Anyway excellent material for reading, I will study it carefully and many thanks for the effort in the writing.

Hope we can get friends as time go by,

gustavo.-

It is typical that as a gout patient gets older the gout attacks occur more frequent and the gout medicines become less effective. Ultimately, gout attacks occur almost all the time and gout medicines do almost nothing to help. It's terrible.

Get rid of the gout and go enjoy the life. Don't hang around the gout buddies.

Sorry, really sorry if it is actually as you say.
Is just that I am concerned because I had my second bursitis (in my life) this month and the doctor said my ua blood level though within the tolerance limits indicates a genetic factor is in my family, he did not say I had to worry, he just said go and look for an anti ua diet in the internet. I thought advises should exist in some forum and I found you. Sorry again and all the things that you wrote will remain as a reference to me, you did good things by sharing the results of your research.

By "anti ua diet" I think you meant "low uric acid diet". Uric acid content of foods in mg/100g is available in section 4 of http://www.Icuredmygout.Org .


By the way, strict low purine diet can lower uric acid level by only about 1 mg/dl (normal, 2.5-7 mg /dl) and can help gout quite little. Is your bursitis gout related? If so you may need some helps other than low purine diet.

Take care.

I don’t know if my bursitis is or not gout related.
All I know is I did not hit neither made a forced movement with my knee this time neither my elbow the other time.
The physician says there are many possible causes. As I said before the blood test indicated a 6.7 mg/dl ua level and the doctor said I should pay attention to my diet.

Thank you for the new link to the low purine diet .

Gustavo.-

This is a GREAT thread and JYY2 is a GREAT contributor!