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Q: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
asked by: Kypros on February 4th, 2008
Experienced User
The frequency of "I'm pro-life because I support equal rights for the unborn and for the women who carry them" opens a box of ignorance, lack of philosophical understanding, and sheer inexperience concerning the abortion debate. It is absolutely impossible to equate the rights of women and foetuses. a bold comment. Simplistic. But true in every sense. I had previously presumed, with a certain level of misinformation, it would emerge, that this was very basic and clear concept. I feel it is necessary, especially on par with the course of discussions going on here lately, that I provide depth (although depth really isn't required, when you see the crudeness of what I'm about to say):

"Foetuses should be equal with women". Sorry fo the pedanthood, but no single person is equal to the next. Men are not equal to women (although they are both biological sexes) as carrots are not equal to potatoes (although both are vegetables) as Blacks are not equal to Whites (although both are human beings). Nevertheless, I'm not dense enough to miss out that you refer to equal rights, so I'll proceed:

By "equal rights for females and foetuses", what do you mean? That both should have the right to live, I guess. Unfortunately, rights entail much more than this utopian ideal. Giving women and foetuses does not bear equality as a result. It just shows that women and foetuses share one discrete right in common (one I will later show will end up meaning both rights are lost). One cannot debate whether abortion is permissible without including or giving unambiguous mention to the very nature of rights: foetuses supposedly deserve rights because of their individuality as human beings. What is individuality? From a biological stance, the foetus is not an individual, buta parasite, by virtue of the fact that its hostess's bodily organs is required indefinitely for it to survive and grow. Ergo, the foetus is subject to the ownership of the bodily autonomy of the hostess - the female who will become the parasite's mother should she opt to bear it. Foetuses are not responsible for their self-preservation. Very simply there is an inexorably unequal nature between female and foetus.

As I have shown, science lies in favour of the woman. Science aside, how can a foetus have the right to life and individuality and simultaneously a woman have the right to life and individuality. These parallel rights would be achieved for the foetus by disallowing abortion. How then, can they be granted to the woman? We would then end up making a horribly contradictory statement such as "It is illegal to kill foetuses by abortion but it is legal for women to have an abortion". As a result, both rights are subsequently nullified. The foetus's rights are made worthless because of the woman's rights and the woman's rights are made worthless because of the foetus's rights. Strangely, some pro-lifers condone legal abortion in cases where the female's life is threatened. This is anoher quindessential example of contradiction: "everybody is equal but some are more equal than others [when we feel the situation's right]". Why, I ask with all eagerness to know, should the female be given the unique right in such circumstances and not the foetus?

Whether it is the foetus or the female that gets the "more equal" rights in these situations it is a acknowledgement of biological inequality, which must then seriously question the credibility of asserting that foetuses and women "need" to have equal rights. If foetuses are to be recognised as individuals of distinct rights (and obviously women will also be recognised as such), this nullifies their occupation of the hostess's body when the hostess wants to enforce her own rights to bodily autonomy. This is an immediate conflict. Both rights cannot be exacted without overriding the other. The pro-lifer will favour the right of the invariably non-independent foetus to remain in the body, which it now has control and ownership of as the woman's rights have been destroyed, of somebody else. This is not a mere "little bit more equal", but rather superiority of a non-fully developed parasitic human and merciless stripping of the rights of a legally recognised and protected individual person. The foetus has now surpassed all equality originally projected by the pro-lifer and owns the fundamental biological existence of the woman. Rather than the foetus being part of her, as biology presents, the woman is now part of the foetus.

Now, based on the evidence (biological, literal, rational, theoretical etc.) that it is impossible to provide foetuses and females with equal rights, who deserves to be "more equal" than the other? The biologically independent, legally recognised sentient, thinking person or the biologically parasitic, legally-ignored growing potential person dependent on the bodily rights of the biologically independent, legally recognised, sentient, thinking person?
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Darkmoon
replied on February 5th, 2008
Active User, very eHealthy
Hmmm, I may have misjudged you, Kypros. Disagreements concerning accurate terms for reproductive choice supporters aside, I find myself identifying strongly with your stance and admiring your arguments.
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Jincks013
replied on February 5th, 2008
Extremely eHealthy
Well put Krypos
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Kypros
replied on February 8th, 2008
Experienced User
Thanks for the comments, guys.
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Darkmoon
replied on February 9th, 2008
Active User, very eHealthy
It's rather interesting that none of the prolifers on the board have commented on this yet. Maybe you could break the post apart in sections? I have a horrible tendency to post novels myself and as a result I've seen prolifers focus only on one or two sentences and completely skip the rest. I tend to scan over prolife novellas myself, actually.

Maybe in debate we should try to cut down on the length to avoid boring the opposition. We bookworms on both sides can be bad about it. I don't see many prolifers doing it here but on another site there's one very intelligent prolifer whose posts I have trouble getting through, because they are sooo long.

Shall we all try to practice cutting down? I think in debates people seem to do better when it's piece by piece, rather than when it's like Hawthorn's "Thanatopsis" (sheesh, I know I'm bad about it and I accidentally said "cereal" the other day when I meant "serial").
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lizet
replied on February 9th, 2008
New User
I agree entirely with this statement. Trying to say a fetus is of higher value in comparison to a woman is completely ridiculous. For that to be said we would have to see the impact of both on the world and we all know that that is not possible.
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Kypros
replied on February 9th, 2008
Experienced User
Darkmoon wrote:
It's rather interesting that none of the prolifers on the board have commented on this yet. Maybe you could break the post apart in sections? I have a horrible tendency to post novels myself and as a result I've seen prolifers focus only on one or two sentences and completely skip the rest. I tend to scan over prolife novellas myself, actually.

Maybe in debate we should try to cut down on the length to avoid boring the opposition. We bookworms on both sides can be bad about it. I don't see many prolifers doing it here but on another site there's one very intelligent prolifer whose posts I have trouble getting through, because they are sooo long.

Shall we all try to practice cutting down? I think in debates people seem to do better when it's piece by piece, rather than when it's like Hawthorn's "Thanatopsis" (sheesh, I know I'm bad about it and I accidentally said "cereal" the other day when I meant "serial").


I tried to break it up as best I can. If the pro-lifers are not willing to read what I wrote (quite shabbily, I admit. I intend to do a proper write-up even just for personal reasons) then they cannot fully care too much about the abortion debate, which is complex and requires depth in order for positions to be clearly established.

lizet wrote:
I agree entirely with this statement. Trying to say a fetus is of higher value in comparison to a woman is completely ridiculous. For that to be said we would have to see the impact of both on the world and we all know that that is not


Hi, lizet, and welcome to ehealth Very Happy. Thanks for your comments. They are well appreciated.
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Tylanas
replied on February 9th, 2008
Especially eHealthy
Tch, I've posted TWO paragraphs and had yoda focus on the same sentence twice, even after requesting he read the whole thing.
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homerx
replied on February 10th, 2008
Supporter
Krypos, yes...well put.Smile
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sistersister
replied on February 11th, 2008
Experienced User
Excellent. May I print this off and use it.
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Birch
replied on February 11th, 2008
Extremely eHealthy
I am just slightly reminded of Orwell here.

It's interesting how we all seem to have different foci re: Abortion. Lately the topics have been bizarre to me: I don't care for semantics, so the dictionary war bores me. The parasite waltz seems like a lovely way to de-emotionalize abortion for some folks, but that's just my opinion. Although I recognize the legal significance, I'm not so interested in legal rights of fetuses. I'm more interested in making sure women know their choices, prolife advocates know why those choices are important to have, and having been there I want people to know that sometimes it's the right decision to make, and you can live happily ever after.

But I completely digress...sorry...
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yodavater
replied on February 12th, 2008
Active User, very eHealthy
Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Kypros wrote:
The frequency of "I'm pro-life because I support equal rights for the unborn and for the women who carry them"

I'm not sure I've ever heard a prolifer say that. The only "right" a prolifer is interested in for the unborn is the "right not to be killed electively". No other "right" would be of any use to him/her.
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yodavater
replied on February 12th, 2008
Active User, very eHealthy
Darkmoon wrote:
It's rather interesting that none of the prolifers on the board have commented on this yet. .

Other than myself and meblonde, there really aren't too many of those here. Haven't you noticed?
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Tylanas
replied on February 12th, 2008
Especially eHealthy
There are actually a lot of pro-lifers on here. I can think of at least 4 or 5.
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Kypros
replied on February 14th, 2008
Experienced User
sistersister wrote:
Excellent. May I print this off and use it.


Of course! No need to ask Laughing.
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Kypros
replied on February 14th, 2008
Experienced User
Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
yodavater wrote:
Kypros wrote:
The frequency of "I'm pro-life because I support equal rights for the unborn and for the women who carry them"

I'm not sure I've ever heard a prolifer say that. The only "right" a prolifer is interested in for the unborn is the "right not to be killed electively". No other "right" would be of any use to him/her.


Wrong. You are an exception to what you said. We debated before about what rights foetuses should have and you said something along the lines of "any legal distinction between the unborn and the born should be removed". This means that you don't want the only foetal right to be prevention from being killed, just as the born have more rights than just not being killed. This is highly hypocritical.

Secondly, it's nice how you focus on just that small point when the rest of the article actually points out why foetuses don't (and rightly so!) have any rights. Without being big-headed. you cannot debunk them without being self-contradictory or logically flawed.

The piece I wrote is quite messy and shabby, though. There are parts I would've liked to re-write/add when I have the time.
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Kypros
replied on February 18th, 2008
Experienced User
Well, well! How surprising - lack of pro-life response Rolling Eyes Laughing
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yodavater
replied on February 19th, 2008
Active User, very eHealthy
Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Kypros wrote:

We debated before about what rights foetuses should have and you said something along the lines of "any legal distinction between the unborn and the born should be removed". This means that you don't want the only foetal right to be prevention from being killed, just as the born have more rights than just not being killed.

What other "right" could an unborn baby possibly exercise? So any other "rights' would be a moot point, would they not?
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yodavater
replied on February 19th, 2008
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Kypros wrote:
Well, well! How surprising - lack of pro-life response Rolling Eyes Laughing

Not really. Dolphinocean and I are the only two regular, prolific prolife posters on the forum, as far as I can tell.
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Kypros
replied on February 19th, 2008
Experienced User
Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
yodavater wrote:
Kypros wrote:

We debated before about what rights foetuses should have and you said something along the lines of "any legal distinction between the unborn and the born should be removed". This means that you don't want the only foetal right to be prevention from being killed, just as the born have more rights than just not being killed.

What other "right" could an unborn baby possibly exercise? So any other "rights' would be a moot point, would they not?


Are you delusional? Do born humans, with whom you advocate foetuses should share equal rights, only have the right to life? No. We have a long list of human rights which are the basics of our rights and protection. So by saying that foetuses are not different in nature to born babies but should only have one right - the right to life - doesn't make you an egalitarian at all! It is a clear statement that foetuses are equal in nature to born humans but shouldn't have the same rights, which means you consider foetuses to be the lowest, inferior human creature. That is absurd, hypocritical, and a sight worse than being pro-choice, where one forms opinions agreeing with logic and biology and respecting human rights.

No human right is broken in an abortion; disallowing abortion causes the harm, lack of autonomy, slavery, inferiority, biological imprisonment etc. of the human woman. By bein pro-choice, no conflicting rights outweigh or usurp one another
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