Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
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Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Posted: 02-04-08 18:40pm
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The frequency of "I'm pro-life because I
support equal rights for the unborn and
for the women who carry them" opens a box
of ignorance, lack of philosophical
understanding, and sheer inexperience
concerning the abortion debate. It is
absolutely impossible to equate the rights
of women and foetuses. a bold comment.
Simplistic. But true in every sense. I had
previously presumed, with a certain level
of misinformation, it would emerge, that
this was very basic and clear concept. I
feel it is necessary, especially on par
with the course of discussions going on
here lately, that I provide depth
(although depth really isn't required,
when you see the crudeness of what I'm
about to say):
"Foetuses should be equal with women".
Sorry fo the pedanthood, but no single
person is equal to the next. Men are not
equal to women (although they are both
biological sexes) as carrots are not equal
to potatoes (although both are vegetables)
as Blacks are not equal to Whites
(although both are human beings).
Nevertheless, I'm not dense enough to miss
out that you refer to equal rights, so I'll
proceed:
By "equal rights for females and
foetuses", what do you mean? That both
should have the right to live, I guess.
Unfortunately, rights entail much more
than this utopian ideal. Giving women
and foetuses does not
bear equality as a result. It just shows
that women and foetuses share one discrete
right in common (one I will later show
will end up meaning both rights are lost).
One cannot debate whether abortion is
permissible without including or giving
unambiguous mention to the very nature of
rights: foetuses supposedly deserve rights
because of their individuality as human
beings. What is individuality? From a
biological stance, the foetus is not an
individual, buta parasite, by virtue of
the fact that its hostess's bodily organs
is required indefinitely for it to survive
and grow. Ergo, the foetus is subject to
the ownership of the bodily autonomy of
the hostess - the female who will become
the parasite's mother should she opt to
bear it. Foetuses are not responsible for
their self-preservation. Very simply there
is an inexorably unequal nature between
female and foetus.
As I have shown, science lies in favour of
the woman. Science aside, how can a foetus
have the right to life and individuality
and simultaneously a woman have the right
to life and individuality. These parallel
rights would be achieved for the foetus by
disallowing abortion. How then, can they
be granted to the woman? We would then end
up making a horribly contradictory
statement such as "It is illegal to kill
foetuses by abortion but it is legal for
women to have an abortion". As a result,
both rights are
subsequently nullified. The foetus's
rights are made worthless because
of the woman's rights and the
woman's rights are made worthless because
of the foetus's rights. Strangely,
some pro-lifers condone legal abortion in
cases where the female's life is
threatened. This is anoher quindessential
example of contradiction: "everybody is
equal but some are more equal than others
[when we feel the situation's right]".
Why, I ask with all eagerness to know,
should the female be given the unique
right in such circumstances and not the
foetus?
Whether it is the foetus or the female
that gets the "more equal" rights in these
situations it is a acknowledgement of
biological
inequality, which must then
seriously question the credibility of
asserting that foetuses and women "need"
to have equal rights. If foetuses are to
be recognised as individuals of distinct
rights (and obviously women will also be
recognised as such), this nullifies their
occupation of the hostess's body when the
hostess wants to enforce her own rights to
bodily autonomy. This is an immediate
conflict. Both rights cannot be exacted
without overriding the other. The
pro-lifer will favour the right of the
invariably non-independent foetus to
remain in the body, which it now has
control and ownership of as the woman's
rights have been destroyed, of somebody
else. This is not a mere "little bit more
equal", but rather superiority of a
non-fully developed parasitic human and
merciless stripping of the rights of a
legally recognised and protected
individual person. The foetus has now
surpassed all equality originally
projected by the pro-lifer and owns the
fundamental biological existence of the
woman. Rather than the foetus being part
of her, as biology presents, the woman is
now part of the foetus.
Now, based on the evidence (biological,
literal, rational, theoretical etc.) that
it is impossible to provide
foetuses and females with equal rights,
who deserves to be "more equal" than the
other? The biologically independent,
legally recognised sentient, thinking
person or the biologically parasitic,
legally-ignored growing potential person
dependent on the bodily rights of the
biologically independent, legally
recognised, sentient, thinking person?
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Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 440 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-05-08 00:31am
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Hmmm, I may have misjudged you, Kypros.
Disagreements concerning accurate terms
for reproductive choice supporters aside,
I find myself identifying strongly with
your stance and admiring your arguments.
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Jincks013
Extremely EHEALTHy
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Posted: 02-08-08 19:32pm
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Thanks for the comments, guys.
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Darkmoon
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Dec 2007 Posts: 440 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-09-08 05:45am
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It's rather interesting that none of the
prolifers on the board have commented on
this yet. Maybe you could break the post
apart in sections? I have a horrible
tendency to post novels myself and as a
result I've seen prolifers focus only on
one or two sentences and completely skip
the rest. I tend to scan over prolife
novellas myself, actually.
Maybe in debate we should try to cut down
on the length to avoid boring the
opposition. We bookworms on both sides
can be bad about it. I don't see many
prolifers doing it here but on another
site there's one very intelligent prolifer
whose posts I have trouble getting
through, because they are sooo long.
Shall we all try to practice cutting down?
I think in debates people seem to do
better when it's piece by piece, rather
than when it's like Hawthorn's
"Thanatopsis" (sheesh, I know I'm bad
about it and I accidentally said "cereal"
the other day when I meant "serial").
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lizet
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 35
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Posted: 02-09-08 16:16pm
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I agree entirely with this statement.
Trying to say a fetus is of higher value
in comparison to a woman is completely
ridiculous. For that to be said we would
have to see the impact of both on the
world and we all know that that is not
possible.
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Posted: 02-09-08 18:09pm
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| Darkmoon
wrote: | It's rather interesting that
none of the prolifers on the board have
commented on this yet. Maybe you could
break the post apart in sections? I have
a horrible tendency to post novels myself
and as a result I've seen prolifers focus
only on one or two sentences and
completely skip the rest. I tend to scan
over prolife novellas myself, actually.
Maybe in debate we should try to cut down
on the length to avoid boring the
opposition. We bookworms on both sides
can be bad about it. I don't see many
prolifers doing it here but on another
site there's one very intelligent prolifer
whose posts I have trouble getting
through, because they are sooo long.
Shall we all try to practice cutting down?
I think in debates people seem to do
better when it's piece by piece, rather
than when it's like Hawthorn's
"Thanatopsis" (sheesh, I know I'm bad
about it and I accidentally said "cereal"
the other day when I meant
"serial"). |
I tried to break it up as best I can. If
the pro-lifers are not willing to read
what I wrote (quite shabbily, I admit. I
intend to do a proper write-up even just
for personal reasons) then they cannot
fully care too much about the abortion
debate, which is complex and requires
depth in order for positions to be clearly
established.
| lizet
wrote: | | I agree entirely with this
statement. Trying to say a fetus is of
higher value in comparison to a woman is
completely ridiculous. For that to be said
we would have to see the impact of both on
the world and we all know that that is
not |
Hi, lizet, and welcome to ehealth . Thanks for
your comments. They are well appreciated.
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Posted: 02-09-08 18:33pm
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Tch, I've posted TWO paragraphs and had
yoda focus on the same sentence twice,
even after requesting he read the whole
thing.
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homerx
Supporter
Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 3892 Location: Earth..usually, USA
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Posted: 02-10-08 19:54pm
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Krypos, yes...well put. 
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sistersister
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 145 Location: ,
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Posted: 02-11-08 09:01am
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Excellent. May I print this off and use
it.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4160 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 02-11-08 22:57pm
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I am just slightly reminded of Orwell
here.
It's interesting how we all seem to have
different foci re: Abortion. Lately the
topics have been bizarre to me: I don't
care for semantics, so the dictionary war
bores me. The parasite waltz seems like a
lovely way to de-emotionalize abortion for
some folks, but that's just my opinion.
Although I recognize the legal
significance, I'm not so interested in
legal rights of fetuses. I'm more
interested in making sure women know their
choices, prolife advocates know why those
choices are important to have, and having
been there I want people to know that
sometimes it's the right decision to make,
and you can live happily ever after.
But I completely digress...sorry...
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yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
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Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Posted: 02-12-08 14:25pm
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| Kypros
wrote: | | The frequency of "I'm
pro-life because I support equal rights
for the unborn and for the women who carry
them" |
I'm not sure I've ever heard a prolifer
say that. The only "right" a prolifer is
interested in for the unborn is the "right
not to be killed electively". No other
"right" would be of any use to him/her.
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yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
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Posted: 02-12-08 14:27pm
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| Darkmoon
wrote: | | It's rather interesting that
none of the prolifers on the board have
commented on this yet.
. |
Other than myself and meblonde, there
really aren't too many of those here.
Haven't you noticed?
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Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
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Posted: 02-12-08 18:31pm
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There are actually a lot of pro-lifers on
here. I can think of at least 4 or 5.
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Posted: 02-14-08 11:33am
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| sistersister
wrote: | | Excellent. May I print this
off and use
it. |
Of course! No need to ask .
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Posted: 02-14-08 11:41am
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| yodavater
wrote: | | Kypros
wrote: | | The frequency of "I'm
pro-life because I support equal rights
for the unborn and for the women who carry
them" |
I'm not sure I've ever heard a prolifer
say that. The only "right" a prolifer is
interested in for the unborn is the "right
not to be killed electively". No other
"right" would be of any use to
him/her. |
Wrong. You are an exception to what
you said. We debated before about what
rights foetuses should have and you said
something along the lines of "any legal
distinction between the unborn and the
born should be removed". This means that
you don't want the only foetal right to be
prevention from being killed, just as the
born have more rights than just not being
killed. This is highly hypocritical.
Secondly, it's nice how you focus on just
that small point when the rest of the
article actually points out why foetuses
don't (and rightly so!) have any rights.
Without being big-headed. you cannot
debunk them without being
self-contradictory or logically flawed.
The piece I wrote is quite messy and
shabby, though. There are parts I would've
liked to re-write/add when I have the
time.
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Posted: 02-18-08 20:07pm
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Well, well! How surprising - lack of
pro-life response

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yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
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Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Posted: 02-19-08 11:15am
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| Kypros
wrote: |
We debated before about what rights
foetuses should have and you said
something along the lines of "any legal
distinction between the unborn and the
born should be removed". This means that
you don't want the only foetal right to be
prevention from being killed, just as the
born have more rights than just not being
killed. |
What other "right" could an unborn baby
possibly exercise? So any other "rights'
would be a moot point, would they not?
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yodavater
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 818
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Posted: 02-19-08 11:16am
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| Kypros
wrote: | Well, well! How surprising -
lack of pro-life response
 |
Not really. Dolphinocean and I are the
only two regular, prolific prolife posters
on the forum, as far as I can tell.
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Kypros
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 373 Location: Leicester
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Re: Dear Pro-Lifers: Equality in Pregnancy Is NOT Possible
Posted: 02-19-08 12:37pm
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| yodavater
wrote: | | Kypros
wrote: |
We debated before about what rights
foetuses should have and you said
something along the lines of "any legal
distinction between the unborn and the
born should be removed". This means that
you don't want the only foetal right to be
prevention from being killed, just as the
born have more rights than just not being
killed. |
What other "right" could an unborn baby
possibly exercise? So any other "rights'
would be a moot point, would they
not? |
Are you delusional? Do born humans, with
whom you advocate foetuses should share
equal rights, only have the right to
life? No. We have a long list of
human rights which are the basics of our
rights and protection. So by saying that
foetuses are not different in nature to
born babies but should only have one right -
the right to life - doesn't make you an
egalitarian at all! It is a clear
statement that foetuses are equal in
nature to born humans but shouldn't have
the same rights, which means you consider
foetuses to be the lowest, inferior human
creature. That is absurd, hypocritical,
and a sight worse than being pro-choice,
where one forms opinions agreeing with
logic and biology and respecting human
rights.
No human right is broken in an abortion;
disallowing abortion causes the harm, lack
of autonomy, slavery, inferiority,
biological imprisonment etc. of the human
woman. By bein pro-choice, no conflicting
rights outweigh or usurp one another
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