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Q: Free Will And Omniscience? Impossible.
asked by: Tylanas on December 22nd, 2007
Especially eHealthy
These are my own interpretations.

I have had some very thought provoking conversations (you know who you are and thank you for your patience despite my attitude) and I have come to several conclusions based off of them. These are revolutionary concepts; they are not what most people discuss.

I have been taught various things, but I feel even the various different interpretations all have the same major flaws. I'm going to have to explain this in steps so please bear with me.

First: Most, if not all interpretations of Christianity say God is
1. Omnipotent - all-powerful, aka he can do all things, not including paradoxes like rocks so big even he cannot lift. This one is to my knowledge fairly easy to interpret. He can create anything, defeat anything, etc.
2. Omniscient - all knowing. This one is a little trickier. From what I can say, this means God knows everything in the past, present and future. He knows every decision you will make from now until the day you die. He knows everything any one of his angels would do. He literally knows everything.

If God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, then it stands to reason that he controls us - Christians often tell me of "God's plan" for me. That's always the excuse when something horrible happens. It was God's plan. More on this later.

So here are my issues. I've recently been taught that all the evil in the world is actually Good gone sour - and it certainly makes sense (to me anyway) and jives extremely well with the biological concept of morality. Wait, what's that you ask?

Biological Morality - all of our morals stem from our basic instincts. Don't kill me, don't take my stuff. This extends to friends and family when humans - a social creature - makes a herd. Herd instincts spread out our individual morality into "don't kill my friends, and don't take their stuff". This levels up to the national level etc, easy to understand.

Anyway, understanding that Good gone sour is clearly our instincts taking over on the selfish level, aka only "don't kill me, and I'll kill you first just in case" instead of caring about your neighbor. Stealing comes from needing things in order to survive. Etc.

Some Christians also maintain the concept that humans have free will. Well obviously I think we have free will because there is no Deity controlling us as far as I know. That's the simplest concept of free will: No God in control.

But wait: God has a plan already made for me. Everything terrible that happens to me is part of his plan. So... that means I was supposed to forget my paper and fail that class? God knew I was going to do it, afterall, didn't he? He's omniscient afterall. Or maybe I join a gang and sell drugs and end up dying in a gun fight that also kills an innocent child. God's plan, all that suffering. So I can't really have free will if I'm just an actor in the play.

There was the thing about evil being part of the Good that God sent down that just went bad. Supposedly, God is gathering warriors to join in the battle against the Good-Gone-Bad. I viewed this as God's arm gone black, the rest of him white and glowing. The warriors are shooting little white zaps at the arm to make it white again. Silly, yes. But accurate.

Anyway, this goes back into that whole Omnipotence thing. If God IS all powerful, then why doesn't he just... fix his arm? Why doesn't he just fix all the Good-gone-bad and make it good again? He CAN, can't he? He's Omnipotent. He can do anything.

People may say "oh, he's just doing to to make us better people". He already knows who the better people are. He already knows who the murderers are, who your uncle accidentally ran over and when you'll die. Right? He controls your entire life because he has a plan for you. So he's not really recruiting warriors because he's already chosen them. He's just watching this whole play that he wrote.

Is he making his chosen individuals "better"? Maybe. But why does he let other people die? Does he really need to have Sally's "plan" in life to become clinically depressed and commit suicide so that her sister can learn the value of life? That seems terribly convoluted. God knew Sally would kill herself.

I hope I haven't confused anyone yet.

If God is Omniscient and Omnipotent he is one HELL of a lazy fruck. He could fix himself and he could make everyone's life wonderful. Instead he purposely makes - not lets, makes - us suffer, just because he can.

I figure none of that makes any lick of sense, not from the way the bible is written and not from the way Christians spread the word - aside from the whole God's Plan part.

So, I say... God is neither Omniscient for Omnipotent. He is very powerful and he does know a lot. He may indeed know us inside and out like a good parent knows their child. He may know how we will probably react in many situations and has plans set out for us... but we can still mess up those plans.

For example, I had someone tell me that if Mary had not accepted God's annunciation, he would have found someone else. Clearly he cannot be omniscient or omnipotent in that case because Mary had free will. God correctly guessed how she'd respond and picked the right lady.

THAT is why our disobedience hurts him as the bible says. He does not control us. There is no play, there is no plan. He does not say "when Jane is 15 she will drive drunk and kill her best friend". I think he probably doesn't write up plans for most of us and instead lets us LIVE. He may come down at certain points and call us to his warriors, but he doesn't micromanage our lives.

Secondly, he is not Omnipotent. Clearly he cannot control Satan. He also cannot fix his arm - alone. He cannot change the Good-gone-sour back into good without the help of his warriors. He needs us.

If you read the bible you already know God's flaws. You already know he is not the omniscient and omnipotent person some people claim him to be. He is a caring, loving deity. He is powerful and very knowing.

All this said, I don't still think I believe in God, unless someone says I'm right. These are just conclusions I've come to.
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kaerbear
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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we got the point like, a month ago. you don't believe in god. are you looking for a medal or something? anyway, what's wrong with a paradox?

in conclusion, maybe you should get over yourself and move on.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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kaerbear wrote:
we got the point like, a month ago. you don't believe in god. are you looking for a medal or something? anyway, what's wrong with a paradox?

in conclusion, maybe you should get over yourself and move on.

This post is not about my disbelief in God. Maybe you should get off this topic if you're not willing to discuss these concepts with an open mind. This is the second time I've made a topic and people have posted on it just to see themselves type.
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LainieNY
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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I still would like to know why, people who don't believe in God get all paranoid and or have to constantly bring up their non beliefs.

We will all die one day. During our life time, we are given different choices to make each & every day. These choices are our free will, the final out come of our actions, what is the all knowing.

Our actions brings on alot of terrible things. Drunk drivers kill, chemicals we use gives us cancers, half ass workmanship can bring down a plane, a derailment a house fire,. a selfish person kills.

I have worked fires, tornados, hurricanes, building explosions, plane crashes, train derailments. Every kind of disaster you can think of except earthquakes and a volcano eruption. Most deaths come from man's stupidity, his actions or lack of actions.

We have free will, the path that the actions we take, has a predestin end.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Because it's interesting you must admit. Goodness, I'm not allowed to have thought-provoking ideas about the possible existence of God unless I'm christian?

I had a GREAT thought on good and bad last night and now I can't remember it... I should have written it down but didn't want to wake up my brother. I'll try to recall it.

I think you misunderstand my musings. I am not afraid, I am not paranoid, I am not screaming at the sky wondering why bad things happen. It's all too plain to see why; just look around. It's human nature. I thought I explained that.

I am thinking for the pure joy of thinking. I like trying to figure things out. I do this because I enjoy it. I have come to understand there are people who do not like philosophical explorations like this. My mother is one of them. Bless her heart she's a very practical woman. She can remembers 50 things you need to do in a day whereas I forget it two seconds later. But explorations of the mind just aren't her cup of tea. She doesn't get it and she doesn't like doing it.

The final answer doesn't matter as much to me since obviously I don't think I believe in God; however I take great pride and joy out of creating through provoking ideas. Why is that such a hard concept to understand? I can't understand you anymore than you can understand me.
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meblonde01
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Re: Free Will And Omniscience? Impossible.
Eiri wrote:
These are my own interpretation

If God is Omniscient and Omnipotent he is one HELL of a lazy fruck.


Foul language and very disrespectful. If you want Christian to debate with you on this topic your might want to tone down your language.

You seem so hateful in this area of your life Eiri, If you don't beleive that is fine, but lighten up.
If you don't believe in God why would any of it even matter to you? It shouldn't..
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kaerbear
replied on December 23rd, 2007
Most Diplomatic Poster
i am a thinker. i just don't broadcast my every thought to the world. everyone has their own set of beliefs but not everyone has a need to be congratulated on them constantly.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Re: Free Will And Omniscience? Impossible.
meblonde01 wrote:
Eiri wrote:
These are my own interpretation

If God is Omniscient and Omnipotent he is one HELL of a lazy fruck.


Foul language and very disrespectful. If you want Christian to debate with you on this topic your might want to tone down your language.

You seem so hateful in this area of your life Eiri, If you don't beleive that is fine, but lighten up.
If you don't believe in God why would any of it even matter to you? It shouldn't..

Dear God, can ANY of you actually read what I wrote instead of nitpicking things? Hell was removed from the filter because admin and the mods decided it wasn't a bad word. Fruck was supposed to be humorous. Rolling Eyes

I AM light for god's sake, what I can't understand is why everyone's coming on here telling me to stop thinking about God because I'm not christian.

Seriously, listen to yourselves. You guys didn't actually read anything I wrote. By read, I mean comprehend. You didn't do it. You probably looked at the title and drew instant conclusions. Talk about being close-minded.

I'm waiting for Guest. He's the only person on here who I can see actually bothering to read this with an open mind - and that's saying a lot.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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kaerbear wrote:
i am a thinker. i just don't broadcast my every thought to the world. everyone has their own set of beliefs but not everyone has a need to be congratulated on them constantly.

I'm not asking for congratulations, I'm asking people to read what I wrote if they feel like it and to respond in mature, thoughtful ways. So far I'm gotten snarkiness, close-mindedness, I've been told to sit down and shut up, and that's about it.
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Birch
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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I respectfully submit that some of you may have it wrong; Eiri may not be completely decided on her beliefs and this is how she works them out.

Goodness knows, I too am sick of religious threads no matter which way they sway, but I wouldn't discourage someone from expressing themselves (even if it's Eiri Wink in regards to religion.

Edit to add: On the other hand, Eiri, you have a funny way of trying to get people to debate with you civilly (I just read your responses).
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LainieNY
replied on December 23rd, 2007
New User
[quote="Eiri"] My mother is one of them. Bless her heart she's a very practical woman.

Who are you asking to "Bless her heart?" Asking for any type of Blessing is a spiritual request.

Your asking for a blessing, then you state you don't think you believe. You have contradicted yourself .

Using fowl language is not joking around, it shows lack of respect.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Exactly. I don't know for sure; none of us do. I'm fairly certain in my beliefs (or lack thereof) but still like exploring the possibilities. I'd hoped that this thread wouldn't come across as either extolling OR bashing religion, and could instead be a mature, thought-provoking philosophical discussion...
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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LainieNY wrote:
Eiri wrote:
My mother is one of them. Bless her heart she's a very practical woman.


Who are you asking to "Bless her heart?" Asking for any type of Blessing is a spiritual request.

Actually it's a figure of speech. A southern one. What, now I'm banned from saying certain words because I'm not Christian? You're digging your hole deeper.

Quote:
Your asking for a blessing, then you state you don't think you believe. You have contradicted yourself .

As I said, I am using it as a figure of speech. On top of that, why can't people bless each other? The word could be interpreted to mean "May other people treat you nicely/kindly". Ever think about that? Probably not.

Quote:
Using fowl language is not joking around, it shows lack of respect.

I'll be sure not to talk about any more chickens. Oh, wait... did you mean "foul"? Because I don't think I mentioned any poultry... And furthermore, just because you don't find fake swearing to be humorous doesn't mean everyone agrees with you.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Birch wrote:
I respectfully submit that some of you may have it wrong; Eiri may not be completely decided on her beliefs and this is how she works them out.

Goodness knows, I too am sick of religious threads no matter which way they sway, but I wouldn't discourage someone from expressing themselves (even if it's Eiri Wink in regards to religion.

Edit to add: On the other hand, Eiri, you have a funny way of trying to get people to debate with you civilly (I just read your responses).

Hah XD I really don't want to argue about the use of the word "bless" or whether or not I'm Christian or if that even matters. I want to freaking discuss the validity of my idea; and I can't seem to get people to even READ it. All they want to do it tell me "Shut up!! You said you're not Christian so that means you can't even THINK about God or.. or... you're BAD"! or something.
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LainieNY
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Eiri

Your right my misuse of foul was wrong. Could be I'm cooking a chicken dinner?

We do read your post, your assuming we don't. We are discussing the validity of your post. I did pick, Free will vs all knowing end.

As I stated, we have the free will to make choices, the actions of any choice we make, has a known ending.

We all have different levels of belief systems. We all are individuals with different life styles. Our lives either makes us grow in spirituality, cynical or what ever.

What my belief was 10 years ago, is not on the same level as it is today, I believe 10 years from now it will be different from today.

I have good friends who do not believe in God, we have great discussions. There is no name calling, no foul language, they are mature discussions. Because they don't believe doesn't make them bad people. We, who do believe, know that.

Language is a way of communicating. The words we choose to say, represents who we are, what we are about. We are judged by them.

I do not get angry at your post, I do not tell you to shut up. I like you, state, what I believe or have experienced. I will ask questions about things that I do not understand or know the answers to. Sometimes I ask to to help understand something I have part knowledge to.

You have accused people not reading your posts, insulting them. Then you wonder why you get ignored.
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Maddie34
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Hm.. I always thought the bad existed because of free will-- some people just make bad choices.

He probably could fix all problems in the world, but that wouldn't be free will now would it? If Sally WANTED to kill herself then how is God supposed to stop it without affecting free will?

I don't really understand what you mean by an actor in God's play. You'll do whatever you want to do-- how can you possibly find something wrong with that?
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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1. Again, I believe we have free will. I thought I explained in my post that we do indeed have free will and BECAUSE of this, God cannot be omniscient. Either I was completely obtuse in my explanation, or... I don't know what else to say.

As for the bad existing because of free will, that's part of it as far as I can tell. I think I understood it as God sent down a part of Goodness into the world, but it can be used in the wrong way.

Holy cow I just remebered what I thought up about good and bad.

The actor line was from the section about NOT having free will because of the belief god is omniscient and omnipotent. How can someone make their own decision if god already has a plan for them? Everything they do, god already knows will happen. Thus, it is like an author of a play watching the actors playing their parts. God wrote the play: and I say "wrote" because if he knows the future, then it is already pre-destined. IF we had free will then he could NOT know the future, which in my opinion means that he must not actually be omniscient.
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Tylanas
replied on December 23rd, 2007
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Okay okay so here's what I thought up about good and bad last night.

A lesson I think that can be learned from my above idea of God - as a very powerful, very wise being - is to be careful what we create. God created the world, the flora and fauna including us, and he created Good. Some of this Good went bad, out of God's control (more proof he's not omnipotent). Satan was perhaps part of this. If God was omnipotent, he could have just stopped Satan.

So anyway... Humans create many things. We are inventors. It's our evolutionary advantage. It's how we survive. Sometimes we make something for an innocent or entertainment purpose, such as the Chinese inventing fireworks. Good. But then, this Good invention is used for bad.

In other cases, something created to kill or to assist in war becomes something good. Think atomic bombs. Capable of creating incredible death and destruction, the peaceful outcome is clean nuclear power which not only benefits humanity but the environment, too. So many things we use in daily life came from something destructive. How about satalite TV or cell phones? Satelites were originally put into orbit by the military. Now, they're used by commercial civilians.

So just as with God, we humans must pay attention to what we do and remember that not always will our best intentions garner "good" results.

Now, in relation to this we must also explore human nature. This is how I had Good-gone-bad in humans explained to me:
A person may do something good with good intentions but things go bad. A person does something bad... but they do it because they expect a result that will be good for them. So they're not really doing something bad, they are doing something Good that has been corrupted. It's just your instincts drawing you towards the end of self-sufficiency and ignoring Herd.
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SmartyShirt
replied on December 23rd, 2007
Experienced User
GOD is not like me or you. GOD not lazy, people are just corrupt. GOD forgives. Good Points though!!!
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marvel
replied on December 24th, 2007
Supporter
If God is omniscient, he would know every single outcome to every single choice/action we make. So, maybe it isn't a case of him knowing exactly WHAT choices we're making and when we're making them... maybe he just knows every consequence of every choice we're going to make? So, though he doesn't know what we're going to do.... he's not surprised by the results?

That's the best compromise between omniscience and free will that I could muster.


Always, Eiri, I appreciate your 'rambling'. It's stuff I constantly ask myself. Fruck. ;P
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