Even the greatest saints have had doubts. Even, Saint Teresa is said to have had doubts.

You are at least honest and searching for your own truth.

Hope that you find your journey to truth and in the end it will be what you are seeking to find.

Otherwise, a girl with your intelligence, is going to have questions, real questions, and, I believe that you are a woman who is not going to be satisfied without personally finding the answers that you seek.

I know that you have a lot to give Eiri.

Roberta

It plagues the human mind to not know what exactly goes on with things of this manner.

Im 100% sure that i dont believe in god, yet in desperate times i find myself questioning that maybe there is something controlling everything. I dont even know who i pray to sometimes, i pray to hope, hope that all my loved ones will make it through the next day, hope that my dog doesnt run away, hope that i have the strength to go on somedays... Its natural to crave something more from existence.

In times like these i like to put more faith back in myself rather then "god". I really think that people need there "god" for too much and put too much of there lives into religion and end up sitting around waiting for a miracle. I cant stand watching people on TV thank god for everything without ever even thinking about how much they acheived in themselfs as a person not a god.

hopefully you find the answer your looking for.

suffering has value in that it can bring wisdom and strength. i don't know any christians who think suffering is so "great" but since it is pretty much a part of life it is only natural that some people will seek the meaning in it. you are probably wiser for having struggled with these questions and that struggle therefore has some value even though you would probably be a happier person if you were blissfully ignorant.

did you ever consider the possibility that others are struggling with the same questions? even those "hateful" christians you always like to talk about.

First, I would like to say, Religion and belief in God are 2 seperste enities all together. You do not need to have a specific religion to believe in God. Most people can not seperate the 2, they believe you have to have religion to have Faith. Not so.

As in The Bible, science also has missing information. Missing links in man's evolution. People take it for reality & acceptence with the missing link, at the same time, The Bible has missing Books, because it has missing Books, man tends to poke holes into it.

We live in a wonderful world of science, it has taken us out of the dark ages & has put us here & now. Yet, science can not explain everything. Take for instance a person who has had a Near Death Experience (NDE). Science has explained how the brain works when people has seen the Tunnel of Light, yet they can not explain how the person, in an instant has traveled miles away to a loved one, they can see and hear everything that person is is doing and or saying, what they are wearing etc. I know of the experience a hospital tried, with a message light sign, no one told them of the messsage. In a NDE, the person isn't concern about the sign, the concern is about what is happening to them and posibly their loved ones. So science can not explain everything, there are missing links.

What I don't understand, maybe you all can explain it to me. If you don't believe in God, then why go on about it. The things I don't believe in, I don't give it a second thought. If it comes up in a conversation, it is started by someone else, I just give my opinion in why I don't believe, then put it away. I don't dwell on my disbeliefs, I just don't understand why people who don't believe in God has to carry on about it.

In this great age, there is a theory, the theory is call ed the String Theory. We have yet to reach the technolgy to prove it's existance, I don't believe that day is far away.

Just keep an open mind & remember, science doesn't have all the answers. Most things you believe are theories of science. They have to keep pushing those theories out their, to keep their funding coming.

I should have mentioned that I don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural at all. No souls, no Gods or angels or demons, no ghosts, nothing. I do not believe in magic, or ESP or any of that. I consider it to be bull. It blinds people; it fools them. People are not psychic. Tarot cards are not real. Dragons never walked the Earth. Ouiji boards do not communicate with the dead. I just have to shake my head when people believe these things.

I can't believe in God with or without religion because he is not explainable via physics, unless you want to discuss alternate or parallel dimensions (which I don't believe in either).

So how can I possibly believe in a supernatural being that caused our entire universe to come into existence? It doesn't make any sense. Where is that being now? Why can we not detect it? Where is heaven? Parallel dimensions? What? Come on.

There is no "missing" link. That's a common myth. NDE's are explainable by many reasons. Every human has very similar NDE's; that's not because heaven exists. It's because the human brain behaves in predictable ways when denied oxygen for a long time and when flooded with adrenaline and other chemicals produced during trauma. I've read papers on NDE's.

String Theory, now that's amazing stuff. I love string theory. If that theory breaks through, it'll re-write physics as we know it.

Why do I carry on about believing in God? I already told you: I was raised christian. The belief of god was part of my youth. I prayed to him every night.

"Dear God:
Please bless Mommy and Daddy and George,
Grandma and Grandpa,
Flapjack and Palo and Buster,
Amen."

The three silly names were pets we'd had over the years. Yes, I prayed for pets we didn't even own anymore. George is my brother. My mother and I would say this every night.

I would talk to him at night before going to bed. I felt very close to God. Then again, I was 8. I got angry at God once too, and that was really the start of my abandonment. I already explained that.

As I got older and learned more about the world I really lived in, the more I realised that God could not actually exist. He was like Santa. This didn't traumatize me; but I did try to work God into my newfound knowledge for a long time. I said "God caused evolution to happen; he started off the spark of the first single celled organism and then let evolution happen". I tried saying he helped form the planet, the galaxy, the universe. I kept pulling God back... until he just couldn't exist anymore.

There is no physical "energy" around human beings. We are just made of matter. Matter is actually energy, just slowed down a lot. So we ARE energy. That's a beautiful idea in itself. But that's not a soul. That's our physical body.

Most things I KNOW are not theories.

Disprove evolution without using religion. Explain the fossil record of every creature and plant on this Earth without using evolution. You can't. Life grows and changes. That change is called evolution.

I've seen suffering turn too many people into bitter, self-loathing, paranoid assholes. I wish I'd been smarter so I could have avoided the suffering I caused myself and my family; it didn't make me a better person. It has made me someone who is terrified of myself; I am my worst enemy. I have to fight myself every single day. That's not a good thing; that's a bad thing.

For myself, I have never wished someone was in charge of things; I've wished there was someone who could FIX things. I do NOT want someone running my life, that angers me to no end. No one runs my life but me. I may do a horrible job at it, but it's MY duty.

However, I have wished to God to fix my mistakes; I've cried through terrified nights to just give me the miracle to not be pregnant this time. Of course I've run to God when I'm terrified and alone. I thought there was no one I could turn to and I was wrong. I had my parents there the whole time; I was just too blinded by "following my heart" to realise I was breaking it. But God didn't let me see this; my parents did.

I never place thanks for my actions in God; because *I* did the things I am proud of. I think thanking God for your own achievements kinda makes you into less of a person.

i've always supposed militant atheists and televaneglists were cut from the same cloth. preachy and cynical. it's an interesting (well not that interesting....let's say peculiar) combination.

Erir,, I think, as I have said before, creation and evolution can go hand and in hand.. It doesn't mean if you believe in God you have to throw out everything that scientist have found about our Earth. I do believe that God was the one that created it ALL..
Like I have also said in the past it had to start with something. The elements to make the "big Bang" if in deed there was one. Elements had to be place there to start it. So how did they get there? Nobody knows.. I choose God..
It makes me a little sad t think you do not think we have souls.. Do you really think there is nothing more to you than what you feel and people see? I have always felt there had to be more to me/ People, than just this short time on earth and then nothing.. We have far to many feeling and emotions to not have souls. Marty thinks Eiri has a soul.

I happen to agree with Meblonde, creation & evolution does go hand in hand. Science will prove it one day.

You said you read on NDE's. Try talking to a person who has had one. Listen carefully to their experience. Again, the traveling & seeing, hearing and even smelling another person miles away from where their heart stopped, can not be explained by science.

You often hear, a policeman/woman, fireman/woman or even a parent will have a "Gut" feeling, that saved them or someone else. We accept these so call Gut feelings. In reality, those gut feelings are part of the 6th sense. How about people who knew someone out of the blue would call the, speeding down the road, you get that feeling a cop is near by, so you listen & slow down, all part of the 6th sense.

The String Theory will change the course of science metaphysics & creation all together. It will be such an explosion find, people will try to constantly fight it & demand funding to end for it. I only say that for all the non believers constant verbal abuse against the believers. If the theory is correct, we know Eistien had believed in more then just 4 dimensions and or realms, what will that mean for creation & evolution? What kind of spiritual Beings exist in these realms.



The Big Bang theory is just that, a theory, The evolution Theory, is just that, a theory. These theories can fit into the Creation theory, if you look outside the box and connect the dots.

As far as life being energy, I believe you are correct, if you recall one of your science school lessons, energy never dies, it transform into a different matter. So how can our energy die? Will it not take on a different matter of form? Who's to say what that matter of form is? Science does not have that answer.

I grew up in believing alot of silly childish things. As an adult, I know they were childish & no longer believe in it. I don't make a point of sputing out I don't believe & then try to insult another for their beliefs, like alot, (not saying you), but alot of non believers do.

We all are our own worst enemy. We all regret something we have done or said in our lifetime. In order to survive that, we learn to try to never do it again. We are free thinking, free will people, we cause alot of hurt along the way. The lesson of growth, be it spiritual or evolution (or both, hand in hand), is to try to keep from repeating it.

I'm not trying to convince you to believe in something. I'm just asking for you & everyone to keep an open mind. Get all the facts and or understand, some things are strong theories, look on both sides of the fence before making a conclusion.

"Gut" feelings are based off of our instincts and past experiences. Humans are naturally paranoid creatures; just as many times people have "gut" feelings, they are wrong. But you only hear about the stories when they are right.

I have not seen any strong proof from a reputable scientific source for the supernatural world. Until I do, I have no reason to believe in it.

We should not be our own enemies. We should be our own soldiers. We should be the strongest tool we have. We should be able to have faith in ourselves and our abilities. We should not fear ourselves. We should not fight ourselves; we should be at peace with who we are.

I don't find it frightening to not believe in souls. I believe what we do in LIFE matters. If you make a change, then you have gained a "soul" in a sense, because the memory of your life will live on in people's minds. That's the only soul or essence I believe in.

Its not that energy never "dies". Energy cannot be created or destroyed. That's what you learned in school. Light is matter, just moving very quickly. e=mc2 literally means that matter IS energy.

If your "feelings" and "senses" of these supernatural beings were real then there would be solid evidence of their existence and there isn't. It's just your body and mind fooling you. Believe me, I have seen and heard just as much as anyone else has about "psychic" experiences.

The people who are speeding down the road simply suddenly remember that a cop could be out there. Perhaps they have seen cops on that part of the road before but don't consciously remember it. They're not "psychic". They are just feeling guilty.

I've done psychic tests. I've guessed the shape cards. I'm really good at it. My friends and I guess colors. I'm really good at that too. I don't think I'm psychic. I think I simply know my friend well enough and am lucky enough to guess the right color.

Part of me desperately wants to believe in all of this by my brain simply won't let me because it is not logical. In the end for me comfort comes from logic. I feel much safer simply saying "We don't know yet" than making up a supernatural being to fill the void. The unknown doesn't worry me, since I know it is just a question to be answered.

Eiri.. you once siad you where buddist.. I really don't know anything about being a buddist.. But at one point you beleived in that.. Right?

No, I'm not really buddhist anymore. It was really just a phase since my fiancee was buddhist. And the spiritual aspect is one of the reasons I am not buddhist anymore. Every philosophy seems to have some kind of spiritual poop attached to it and it annoys me.

Crap I can't edit my post anymore. I have more to say lol.

On energy still: The matter of our bodies pretty much decays uselessly in the ground these days; but it turns onto different kinds of matter. It doesn't "die". That is the wrong word to use, since energy is not alive in the first place so of course it cannot die. It can change. That's all it can do. And if you're implying it takes on a "spiritual form" then why can we not detect it? Invisible undetectable energy? Isn't that an oxymoron? Yes, it is.

I think the best thing is an awareness of how very little we actually know.

I think there is something bigger than all of us out there. I think that Religion is an attempt to access and understand it. I do not fall for the giant systems and hierarchies that have been designed under the pretense of 'truth', however I do believe that whatever it is that is 'bigger than me' is still accessible. I'm somewhat of a mystic, you could say.

I believe science. I also believe non-rationality. One day, I think they'll compliment each other beautifully.

It's all about abandoning what I've been brainwashed into believing by my Catholic upbringing (Though Catholicism espouse a lot of what i percieve as truth). I think it's all about how we've been trained as a whole humanity to percieve God... I think it's a tragedy, actually.

beleif in the supernatural is not in conflict at all with belief in the natural, that is to say, beleif in a after life is not in conflict with science.

God exists, I am sure and if I could explain it well enough for you to understand you woud be sure too, the problem perhaps is not with your understanding but perhaps with my explination but here goes...

You have read what i have said about how we need to put to oneside our childish christian images of God and biblical metaphore and learn the from an adult point of view, the fantasy of our childhood is not credible to the adult mind, that is not to say that the fantasy is false, we need a new perspective to believe that the fantasy maybe real.

I want to keep things as simple as possible so I wont go into the Christian concept of God or indeed any concept of God. imagine if you will a blank A3 peice of paper, nothing on it at all, this is the persepctive from where I want to begin regarding how I am sure God exists. forget all that you have been told about God all things you can not know for sure, including the things you can not know for sure that do not pertain to god

So what we have is the world around us but how much of this world around us can we be sure of, nothing except for that which we know about ourselves. I know nothing of about a tree except for what I know about that tree from what I know about myself, I know for instance that it is solid only because I have felt the tree. I know that the wind blows the tree becuase I have felt the wind, heard the wind and seen the tree move.

The key to being sure God exists therefore comes from personal experience, just as being sure the tree is hard because we have personal experience of the tree, we have felt the tree. I can not prove to you that the tree is hard unless I convince you to touch it, you can take my word for it, even trust me but you will not be sure.

However even though personal experience of the tree gives us a feeling of certitude it is still far from our mind being without doubt, indeed how far can we trust personal experience, in the end what do we really know about anything even our personal experiences?

Is not all we believe, could it not all be false?

well, yes it could, the first thing to realse that when we consider God or anything for that matter, we can not expect 100% proof. it does not exist in anything at all.
What we are looking for is evidences, a feeling of certitude.

When I say, I am sure God exists, you need to know what I mean by sure, it is this kind of certude, I am not saying Yes God exists no doubt, far from it, I am sure he does but only as sure as I can be as a human being could be about anything, which is far from "sure" in its understanding as definate.

Another thing to remember is when considering the evidences one can always say "god does not exist" because of how one can always say "my computer is not real" and have a feeling of certitude about that too. Our feeling of certitude of Gods existance or inexistance can be effected by negitive and possitve attitudes towards the possiblity of God.

This is why I asked for a blank A3 peice of paper at the start, so we have no preconcieved Ideas about God.

What do I know, I know this, that everything I do has a reason, therefore I my world around me takes on this personal experience, suddenly why is the soil there? To nourish the flowers, why is the flowers there to feed the insects, why the insects, to feed the animals, what is the reason for all this "nature" well its purpose seems to be for my benefit, but for what reason am I here for, since I am a part of nature, what is higher than me?

Sure if I created nature, then I could say, yeah the reason for nature is to please me, but since I am a part of nature and not the creator of nature, I have to ask what is the reason for nature and in particular reason for being for existing

When I see a table I say that table exists because I or someone else made it, when I see a tv I say that tv exists because I or someone else made it, when I see a Car, I say that car exists because I or someone else made it, but when I look at nature I say It exists because i am experiencing it but I did not make it, someone else must have made it, who, I dont know anyone who says they made the world around me. No human being could have made the mountains or the sea, based on my personal experience I have to assum then that whatever did make this world is superior to me and that all these things all though they seem to be for my purposes, when I look at nature with myself as part of it then I see that all the earth and myself are for the purpose of this thing that made all of this, I can only come to this conclusion because I can only base anything off my own personal experiences any other conclusion would be wild imaginings based on nothing, only this conclusion is based on anything remotely solid, personal experience. When was the last time you stuck a buch of inaminate objects in a bag and when you opened it and they had all fallen into the right place to make a watch?

So what is the reason for nature, we dont know but 1st of all whatever the reason is, it is God.

2nd, We can be sure as based on personal experience that this Reason is probably something like a person, that is this reason for nature had a purpose for nature.

3rd The this person who created nature, the universe, is probably both evil for we see nasty things happen in this world and this person is probably good too since we see nice things happening in this world, it is here I will leave you, perhaps on the verge of considering the rellgion of dualism but still far from Christianity.

Do you all honestly believe that people have believed in God for centuaries because of a lack of science, a lack of information and is due to social conditioning, even the tribesmen who have never met the outside world, still have their God. Some of the greatest minds believe in God, phiolsophers, doctors, even scientists.

[First: Thank you for the excellent post. There were some very interesting concepts in there and I am very impressed with how you explained things.]

Belief in the supernatural is in DIRECT conflict with knowledge of the natural. You cannot explain the supernatural world with current science. Thus, I do not believe in it. It is very simple.

Do not make statements like "God does exist" without being able to prove it beyond a doubt. "You exist" does not prove God exists. Show me graphs where you've picked up the energy that God emits. He's a being of light, surely he must emit some kind of detectable energy? We haven't found any. Show me scientific proof of the soul. You can't. There isn't any. See? No proof, no belief. I am very simple minded in that way.

For your tree example, yes; it fits in well with my need for proof. Yet I have not had any experience to prove to me that God exists. I cannot see the tree you see; I cannot touch the tree you are asking me to touch because I don't see it in the first place. You're assuring me there is indeed a tree there; I see a field. I can walk right through that place you see a tree in because I don't see it. I won't feel a thing. Why? Because there is no tree. I feel you have fooled yourself into thinking there is a tree there when there actually isn't one.

Just because we cannot be 100% certain that what we experience is real is NOT an excuse for blind faith or blind belief in God. "Oh, I can't prove for certain I really just ate that cookie; thus God must exist!" That seems like a silly argument to me. I'm simplifying it; but I understand your actual concept and I don't think it makes any sense either.

I'm not expecting 100% proof of God. I'd be happy with 50%. I've not gotten any. I do not feel I have ever seen or experienced anything in my life that proves the existence of God. There is a lot more proof of my computer existing than of God existing. I do not feel your example works. Not for me, anyway.

I think it's pretty arrogant of you to assume the whole world is there for your entertainment and benefit. It's not. The flowers are there simply to survive and they are viciously competing with each other every day in order to pass on their genes. They aren't there for you to smell and enjoy and pick. They are there to survive; that is why life exists. To perpetuate itself. To grow.

Why does there need to be something higher than you? Why, in fact, do you consider yourself higher than the animals or the flowers? Why do you think that you (humankind) are the "highest"? You've thankfully included yourself as part of nature, but what makes you think that A. It was made for you and B. That you're at the top?

You consider God a creator like humans; you assume that nature must have been created since something so complex could never have happened on its own. I say otherwise:

Nature exists because it evolved. I have the answer to that and it's not God. Unless we want to take this trip all the way back to the Big Bang, I can explain to you the development and the "why" of everything on Earth. None of these activities required the hand of God. It all happened by itself.

I cannot, however, explain the Big Bang. That is the only place I can consider God existing: in a time before time, in a space before space. In a non-existence. And then apparently God exploded (or decided to explode) and the universe expanded from nothingness. If anything, God IS the universe and the name of our universe is God. But that doesn't make it a sentient being, nor does that make God a thing that would want to mess around in the lives of men. God is the whole universe, there's a lot more to pay attention to than us.

I do not believe in good or evil. Those are human concepts, but not real "things". WHen you look out into nature, things are not good or evil. Only humans can even consider themselves good or evil. Even then, each individual's concept of good and evil changes. Mine differs from yours. That's because I made up my concept of good and evil. A human created rules.

I believe humans invented "creative" gods and deities out of fear. There were many things we did not understand and since we were "creators" (as you have discussed) we assumed that indeed for nature to exist, a larger "creator" must have made it.

I feel you have followed the exact same path the ancient humans did when creating their gods. You do not understand the world around you; it is complicated. (Don't take that to mean you're dumb; I'm simplifying again) You know that humans can create things, and that objects do not normally assemble themselves (the watch in the bag). Thus you believe there must be something creating nature; since surely it could not have assembled itself?

Yet watch a seed someday. A whole tree builds itself from that tiny seed... and no one needs to build it. The wind shapes rocks; but no God needs control that wind; the heating and cooling of the landscape does that. This planet shapes and creates itself. If anything, Earth is who we should worship.

Earth and Universe created us. Not God. Earth and Universe do not have ethics. They do not have morals. They do not even have a "mind". Earth and Universe do not tell us what to do; they do not make demands of us. We do not have to worship Earth and Universe because they will simply continue doing what they do for as long as they last. Sun gives life to the plants, which end up giving life to us through food.

So in the end, I still do not believe in the supernatural world. I have seen no proof of spirits. I have seen no proof of God. I SEE the Universe.

wow, can i just say eiri you nailed that on the head.

guest, while your post did have some very interesting views, you still have to first believe in god to take any of it on board. You need a reality check if your comparing a solid object like a table or car to "God", which seems to be the whole general jist of your post.

SCIENCE has proved time and time again that the right conditions and chemicals or substances something can grow from nothing or have a reaction in a split second. could this not be possible for the universe also? and can you speak universally for the "creator" when youve never experienced god from any part of the universe accept for earth? yet your willing to make claims that he created the earth and all nature forgeting that we dont even know how far the universe goes and the earth is only a tiny pinpoint of possibly one of the smallest galaxys in the universe.

Thank you

It felt very good as I was typing it; everything was coming out fluently and made sense. Not all of those ideas are pre-conceived; I fed off of Guest's post.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with comparing God to a chair; Guest was demonstrating how people feel about God's existence; to them, he is as real as a chair is to you.