I don't really care what you "name" it;
the content/makeup/biological facts
haven't changed. Call it a person, a
human being; I still will advocate for
legal, safe, and shamefree abortion.
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nightangel73
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Posted: 12-01-07 12:33pm
Birch
wrote:
I don't really care what you
"name" it; the content/makeup/biological
facts haven't changed. Call it a person,
a human being; I still will advocate for
legal, safe, and shamefree
abortion.
There you go. This view I respect. It's
not one justified by semantics.
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Verizon-y
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Posted: 12-01-07 19:39pm
What's an example of an argument for
abortion justified by semantics? I'm just
curious.
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Birch
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Posted: 12-01-07 22:06pm
Probably the "it's not a person" so it's
not homicide one.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 12-02-07 13:02pm
nightangel73
wrote:
Abortion = wrong when it's
person.
Actually no. Abortion is still right
because if YOU demand the fetus be
considered a person (which I only resist
based on obvious scientific evidence) then
that "person" must now be liable for the
crimes it is committing. It is using the
mother's body without her permission. It
invaded and grew inside of her body
without her permission. It is now using
her nutrients for it's own
growth again without her permission.
If you demand the zef be
considered a person, then you must agree
that the woman has full rights to defend
her body against this invading person.
Thus, she has a right to abort.
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Tylanas
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Posted: 12-02-07 13:03pm
Birch
wrote:
Probably the "it's not a
person" so it's not homicide
one.
Actually it's still self-defense so no,
it's not homicide one. The zef being a
person does not affect the legality of
abortion in any way; in fact I feel it
strengthens the pro-choice stance.
I am bothered by people calling the zef a
person because it is wrong. It is (in my
mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree
a car. They just aren't the same things...
So it's like discussing a math problem
with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3.
We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's
still the fact that it's wrong.
Why do people want to repeat wrong things?
It confuses me to no end.
I am not going to "concede" in an argument
about this. I have not seen on single
piece of evidence that can even begin to
promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person.
Until then, I will maintain my views. I
need proof it is a person; and good enough
proof that it refutes all of the evidence
I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a
person.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 12-02-07 13:16pm
futureshock
wrote:
What's an example of an
argument for abortion justified by
semantics? I'm just curious.
Here ya go...
Eiri
wrote:
Actually it's still self-defense so no,
it's not homicide one. The zef being a
person does not affect the legality of
abortion in any way; in fact I feel it
strengthens the pro-choice stance.
I am bothered by people calling the zef a
person because it is wrong. It is (in my
mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree
a car. They just aren't the same things...
So it's like discussing a math problem
with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3.
We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's
still the fact that it's wrong.
Why do people want to repeat wrong things?
It confuses me to no end.
I am not going to "concede" in an argument
about this. I have not seen on single
piece of evidence that can even begin to
promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person.
Until then, I will maintain my views. I
need proof it is a person; and good enough
proof that it refutes all of the evidence
I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a
person.
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Cambion
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 747
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Posted: 12-02-07 14:36pm
Quote:
tr>
Abortion = wrong
when it's
person.
Wow, NA - I didn't know you spoke
Pittsburgh-ese.
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msrosie
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 02 Jan 2005 Posts: 369 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: 12-02-07 15:50pm
Birch
wrote:
I don't really care what you
"name" it; the content/makeup/biological
facts haven't changed. Call it a person,
a human being; I still will advocate for
legal, safe, and shamefree
abortion.
Same here, Birch. I'm prochoice because I
believe that to force women to gestate is
a violation of her body akin to rape. That
would not change should the fetus ever be
legally declared a person or human being.
No born person has the right to use my
body for life support against my will,
therefore no unborn person should have
that right either.
I think there is too much time wasted in
these debates arguing over whether it is a
person or human being or not.
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 12-02-07 22:15pm
msrosie
wrote:
Birch
wrote:
I don't really care what you
"name" it; the content/makeup/biological
facts haven't changed. Call it a person,
a human being; I still will advocate for
legal, safe, and shamefree
abortion.
Same here, Birch. I'm prochoice because I
believe that to force women to gestate is
a violation of her body akin to rape. That
would not change should the fetus ever be
legally declared a person or human being.
No born person has the right to use my
body for life support against my will,
therefore no unborn person should have
that right either.
I think there is too much time wasted in
these debates arguing over whether it is a
person or human being or
not.
I do agree very much. With respect for
the semantical prochoice argument,
however, if the fetus were to be
"officially" labeled a person thus
directly making abortion illegal, I would
have a conniption because it wouldn't
change anything.
As long as abortion is legal, call it
whatever you want.
Eiri
wrote:
Wrong. I am not "justifying"
abortion via semantics. I very clearly
stated "The zef being a person does not
affect the legality of abortion in any
way".
Birch = Epic Failure.
Learn to read before trying to be
sarcastic, Birch. You're really bad when
it comes to that. You just like trying to
attack me.
With all due respect, I feel as though
these statements stem from a
hallucination.
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Jules
Moderator
Joined: 19 Aug 2006 Posts: 3831 Location: Merrie Englande, UK
Thanks: 91
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Posted: 12-03-07 03:20am
Birch
wrote:
I would have a
conniption
Ooh I learnt a new word!
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Moo
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 1066 Location: London
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Posted: 12-03-07 07:47am
Emma2
wrote:
An infant cannot survive on
it's own outside . It needs to be
nourished by someone
else.
It does not need to be the birth mother
who does this, anyone can look after a
newborn (hence adoption) only the woman in
the pregnancy relationship can do this
before birth.
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Verizon-y
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Posted: 12-03-07 12:14pm
Birch
wrote:
futureshock
wrote:
What's an example of an
argument for abortion justified by
semantics? I'm just curious.
Here ya go...
Eiri
wrote:
Actually it's still self-defense so no,
it's not homicide one. The zef being a
person does not affect the legality of
abortion in any way; in fact I feel it
strengthens the pro-choice stance.
I am bothered by people calling the zef a
person because it is wrong. It is (in my
mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree
a car. They just aren't the same things...
So it's like discussing a math problem
with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3.
We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's
still the fact that it's wrong.
Why do people want to repeat wrong things?
It confuses me to no end.
I am not going to "concede" in an argument
about this. I have not seen on single
piece of evidence that can even begin to
promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person.
Until then, I will maintain my views. I
need proof it is a person; and good enough
proof that it refutes all of the evidence
I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a
person.
<
span class="postbody">
I gotcha, Birch.
|
Verizon-y
Extremely EHEALTHy
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 3291
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Posted: 12-03-07 12:19pm
Eiri
wrote:
Wrong. I am not "justifying"
abortion via semantics. I very clearly
stated "The zef being a person does not
affect the legality of abortion in any
way".
Birch = Epic Failure.
Learn to read before trying to be
sarcastic, Birch. You're really bad when
it comes to that. You just like trying to
attack me.
Eiiri, in this semantic argument, as in
most semantic arguments, it is not you who
made the semantic argument, it is the
anti-choicers who did. You are simply
defending against it.
The anti-choice side came up with the idea
of calling fertilized eggs "people". They
created the semantic argument, not
pro-choice people. Of course we have to
argue back against it, but that does not
mean we are the ones putting forth
semantic arguments.
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Verizon-y
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Posted: 12-03-07 12:59pm
I think some of us are getting too hung up
on the "semantics" of the word "semantic"
(lol)
"As is so often the case, the
"conservative" side of this debate has
been much more skillful in its crafting of
language to convey its message. For
example, their self-selected descriptions
of their position, "pro-life" and
"anti-abortion," convey the immediate
suggestion that the opposition is
"anti-life" and "pro-abortion."
As a moment's reflection should make
clear, a "pro-choice" position by no means
entails "anti-life" or "pro-abortion." Yet
it took a few years after Roe vs. Wade for
the liberals to get their semantic act
together and to adopt for themselves the
label of "pro-choice."
"Pro choice" is, of course, quite
consistent with "pro-life," as it calls
for protection of the lives of the women
endangered by an untimely or medically
counter-indicated pregnancy. And as we
noted at the outset, the liberal
"pro-choice" position encourages sex
education and contraception which have
together proven to be very effective means
of reducing the number of unwanted
pregnancies and hence abortions - surely a
life-affirming policy.
Furthermore, no one is, strictly speaking,
"pro-abortion" - that is to say, no one
seriously contends that abortion is prima
facie a "nice thing" to happen to a woman.
Instead, the pro-choice position regards
abortion as "a necessary evil." How
"necessary" and how "evil"? - that moral
perception varies with each individual. At
one extreme end of the spectrum, a
late-term abortion may be assigned the
disvalue of inconvenience, like an
untimely toothache. At the other extreme
are those who say, flat out, that there is
nothing more evil than abortion (or
"child-killing" as they call it) - not the
loss of the life of the mother, not the
mandatory pregnancy resulting from rape or
incest, not the birth of a Tay-Sachs child
condemned to a very brief life of
unremitting torture, not even the homicide
of "child-killer" physicians who perform
abortions or the "collateral" injuries to
patients and staff caused by clinic
bombings.
Somewhere between these extremes are the
opinions of almost all the rest of us.
"Pro-Choice," consistent with the Roe
decision, holds that a woman's personal
beliefs, somewhere along this spectrum,
should bear significantly upon the
decision whether or not to continue her
pregnancy - and that the law and the State
should not impose that decision upon her.
The semantic over-reach of the
conservatives is best exemplified the
designation of the product of conception,
from the moment of unicellular
fertilization (the "zygote"), as a "baby."
Thus abortion, during even the earliest
stages of embryonic and fetal development,
is routinely referred to as
"baby-killing."
The absurdity of this word-play was
manifested about a decade ago in a legal
case in Tennessee. After a few years of
failed attempts to conceive a child, a
couple agreed to try in-vitro
fertilization. A few hours after
fertilization, six developing
cell-clusters were frozen in liquid
nitrogen, in anticipation of later
implantation. However, soon thereafter the
marriage failed. The wife consented to
have the embryos discarded, but the
husband sued to have them preserved "just
in case" he later married an infertile
woman and desired to have children.
Although (as I recall) nobody asked them,
a "right to life" group then stepped in as
a friend of the court (more accurately, "a
friend of the zygotes"). In a half-hour
that I vividly remember, the case was
argued on CNN's "Crossfire," wherein the
anti-abortion advocate repeatedly referred
to those chilled, microscopic
cell-clusters as "the poor babies."
"Babies?!"
The pro-life forces discovered early-on
that the conjoining of "killing" and
"babies" produces powerful rhetorical
ammunition, which they have since put to
persistent and very effective use."
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Birch
Supporter
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: Bliss,
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Posted: 12-03-07 16:23pm
Jules
wrote:
Birch
wrote:
I would have a
conniption
Ooh I learnt a new word!
I think this word was used best by Bill
Cosby in his "The Same Thing Happens Every
Night" when he talks about his wife having
a conniption. I tried to find it on
YouTube but this might be one you have to
chuck out some dough for. It's great!
I enjoyed the articles on semantics,
future. Thank you.
Or even two celled
organisms. I maintain the obvious fact (in
my mind) that a fetus does not truly
become a person until it is born; and it
does not have a right to life until it is
developed enough to survive outside of the
female's body.
Person = independent
In my opinion, anyway. No, not 100%
independent. But at least a newborn isn't
physically attached to someone; anyone now
can give it care and
love.
This pro-choice idea makes my body cringe
every time I read it . Eiri, how utterly
pointless it is to say that a person is
independent in your opinion. So, if a
foetus is a person in a pro-lifer's
opinion, then I guess abortion
equates murder and must be made
illegal. Semantics have dentoations for a
reason; to be appreciated and used in its
way, away from bias. In the dictionary, a
human being and a person are
the same! Supporting
reproductive rights should inform women of
truth, not spineless hypotheses. Foetuses
are persons. Read a dictionary.
It so annoying when it is assumed by
either pro-choicers or pro-lifers that a
particular declaration is lop-sided. I'd
say it's down to the individual not to let
his/her mind think like that. Semantically speaking,
abortions kill innocent babies who are
no less a person than a born human but
also remove an invading, scientifically
less significant parasite from its host's
body. To be honest, I could'nt give a toss
which one you people prefer - they are
both correct and I'm aware of the
connotations of each one's usage, but it's
all the same to me.
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Verizon-y
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Posted: 12-04-07 16:25pm
It doesn't matter if a fetus is a person
or not. No born person has the right to
use another person's bodily resources
against their will.