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Birch

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Posted: 12-01-07 12:15pm

I don't really care what you "name" it; the content/makeup/biological facts haven't changed. Call it a person, a human being; I still will advocate for legal, safe, and shamefree abortion.
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nightangel73

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Posted: 12-01-07 12:33pm

Birch wrote:
I don't really care what you "name" it; the content/makeup/biological facts haven't changed. Call it a person, a human being; I still will advocate for legal, safe, and shamefree abortion.


There you go. This view I respect. It's not one justified by semantics.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-01-07 19:39pm

What's an example of an argument for abortion justified by semantics? I'm just curious. Smile
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Birch

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Posted: 12-01-07 22:06pm

Probably the "it's not a person" so it's not homicide one.
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Tylanas

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Posted: 12-02-07 13:02pm

nightangel73 wrote:
Abortion = wrong when it's person.

Actually no. Abortion is still right because if YOU demand the fetus be considered a person (which I only resist based on obvious scientific evidence) then that "person" must now be liable for the crimes it is committing. It is using the mother's body without her permission. It invaded and grew inside of her body without her permission. It is now using her nutrients for it's own growth again without her permission.

If you demand the zef be considered a person, then you must agree that the woman has full rights to defend her body against this invading person. Thus, she has a right to abort.
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Tylanas

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Posted: 12-02-07 13:03pm

Birch wrote:
Probably the "it's not a person" so it's not homicide one.

Actually it's still self-defense so no, it's not homicide one. The zef being a person does not affect the legality of abortion in any way; in fact I feel it strengthens the pro-choice stance.

I am bothered by people calling the zef a person because it is wrong. It is (in my mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree a car. They just aren't the same things... So it's like discussing a math problem with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3. We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's still the fact that it's wrong. Why do people want to repeat wrong things? It confuses me to no end.

I am not going to "concede" in an argument about this. I have not seen on single piece of evidence that can even begin to promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person. Until then, I will maintain my views. I need proof it is a person; and good enough proof that it refutes all of the evidence I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a person.
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Birch

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Posted: 12-02-07 13:16pm

futureshock wrote:
What's an example of an argument for abortion justified by semantics? I'm just curious. Smile


Here ya go...

Eiri wrote:

Actually it's still self-defense so no, it's not homicide one. The zef being a person does not affect the legality of abortion in any way; in fact I feel it strengthens the pro-choice stance.

I am bothered by people calling the zef a person because it is wrong. It is (in my mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree a car. They just aren't the same things... So it's like discussing a math problem with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3. We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's still the fact that it's wrong. Why do people want to repeat wrong things? It confuses me to no end.

I am not going to "concede" in an argument about this. I have not seen on single piece of evidence that can even begin to promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person. Until then, I will maintain my views. I need proof it is a person; and good enough proof that it refutes all of the evidence I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a person.
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Cambion

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Posted: 12-02-07 14:36pm

Quote:
Abortion = wrong when it's person.


Wow, NA - I didn't know you spoke Pittsburgh-ese. Smile
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msrosie

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Posted: 12-02-07 15:50pm

Birch wrote:
I don't really care what you "name" it; the content/makeup/biological facts haven't changed. Call it a person, a human being; I still will advocate for legal, safe, and shamefree abortion.


Same here, Birch. I'm prochoice because I believe that to force women to gestate is a violation of her body akin to rape. That would not change should the fetus ever be legally declared a person or human being. No born person has the right to use my body for life support against my will, therefore no unborn person should have that right either.

I think there is too much time wasted in these debates arguing over whether it is a person or human being or not.
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Birch

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Posted: 12-02-07 22:15pm

msrosie wrote:
Birch wrote:
I don't really care what you "name" it; the content/makeup/biological facts haven't changed. Call it a person, a human being; I still will advocate for legal, safe, and shamefree abortion.


Same here, Birch. I'm prochoice because I believe that to force women to gestate is a violation of her body akin to rape. That would not change should the fetus ever be legally declared a person or human being. No born person has the right to use my body for life support against my will, therefore no unborn person should have that right either.

I think there is too much time wasted in these debates arguing over whether it is a person or human being or not.


I do agree very much. With respect for the semantical prochoice argument, however, if the fetus were to be "officially" labeled a person thus directly making abortion illegal, I would have a conniption because it wouldn't change anything.

As long as abortion is legal, call it whatever you want.

Eiri wrote:
Wrong. I am not "justifying" abortion via semantics. I very clearly stated "The zef being a person does not affect the legality of abortion in any way".


Birch = Epic Failure.

Learn to read before trying to be sarcastic, Birch. You're really bad when it comes to that. You just like trying to attack me.


With all due respect, I feel as though these statements stem from a hallucination. Confused
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Jules

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Posted: 12-03-07 03:20am

Birch wrote:
I would have a conniption


Ooh I learnt a new word! Smile
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Moo

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Posted: 12-03-07 07:47am

Emma2 wrote:
An infant cannot survive on it's own outside . It needs to be nourished by someone else.

It does not need to be the birth mother who does this, anyone can look after a newborn (hence adoption) only the woman in the pregnancy relationship can do this before birth.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-03-07 12:14pm

Birch wrote:
futureshock wrote:
What's an example of an argument for abortion justified by semantics? I'm just curious. Smile


Here ya go...

Eiri wrote:

Actually it's still self-defense so no, it's not homicide one. The zef being a person does not affect the legality of abortion in any way; in fact I feel it strengthens the pro-choice stance.

I am bothered by people calling the zef a person because it is wrong. It is (in my mind) like calling a dog a fish, or a tree a car. They just aren't the same things... So it's like discussing a math problem with me and constantly saying that 1+1=3. We might not even be adding 1+1, but it's still the fact that it's wrong. Why do people want to repeat wrong things? It confuses me to no end.

I am not going to "concede" in an argument about this. I have not seen on single piece of evidence that can even begin to promote the 6-12 week e/f as a person. Until then, I will maintain my views. I need proof it is a person; and good enough proof that it refutes all of the evidence I've seen that shows the zef is NOT a person.
< span class="postbody">




I gotcha, Birch.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-03-07 12:19pm

Eiri wrote:
Wrong. I am not "justifying" abortion via semantics. I very clearly stated "The zef being a person does not affect the legality of abortion in any way".


Birch = Epic Failure.

Learn to read before trying to be sarcastic, Birch. You're really bad when it comes to that. You just like trying to attack me.

Eiiri, in this semantic argument, as in most semantic arguments, it is not you who made the semantic argument, it is the anti-choicers who did. You are simply defending against it.

The anti-choice side came up with the idea of calling fertilized eggs "people". They created the semantic argument, not pro-choice people. Of course we have to argue back against it, but that does not mean we are the ones putting forth semantic arguments.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-03-07 12:59pm

I think some of us are getting too hung up on the "semantics" of the word "semantic" (lol)

semantics

se·man·tics-
the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

Calling a fetus a person is arguing about semantics, i.e. arguing about the meaning of the word fetus or person.

Changing the meaning of the words zygote, embryo, fetus to mean "persons" is an argument based on semantics put forth by the anti-choice side.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-03-07 13:10pm

The Semantics of Abortion


"As is so often the case, the "conservative" side of this debate has been much more skillful in its crafting of language to convey its message. For example, their self-selected descriptions of their position, "pro-life" and "anti-abortion," convey the immediate suggestion that the opposition is "anti-life" and "pro-abortion."

As a moment's reflection should make clear, a "pro-choice" position by no means entails "anti-life" or "pro-abortion." Yet it took a few years after Roe vs. Wade for the liberals to get their semantic act together and to adopt for themselves the label of "pro-choice."

"Pro choice" is, of course, quite consistent with "pro-life," as it calls for protection of the lives of the women endangered by an untimely or medically counter-indicated pregnancy. And as we noted at the outset, the liberal "pro-choice" position encourages sex education and contraception which have together proven to be very effective means of reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies and hence abortions - surely a life-affirming policy.

Furthermore, no one is, strictly speaking, "pro-abortion" - that is to say, no one seriously contends that abortion is prima facie a "nice thing" to happen to a woman. Instead, the pro-choice position regards abortion as "a necessary evil." How "necessary" and how "evil"? - that moral perception varies with each individual. At one extreme end of the spectrum, a late-term abortion may be assigned the disvalue of inconvenience, like an untimely toothache. At the other extreme are those who say, flat out, that there is nothing more evil than abortion (or "child-killing" as they call it) - not the loss of the life of the mother, not the mandatory pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, not the birth of a Tay-Sachs child condemned to a very brief life of unremitting torture, not even the homicide of "child-killer" physicians who perform abortions or the "collateral" injuries to patients and staff caused by clinic bombings.

Somewhere between these extremes are the opinions of almost all the rest of us.

"Pro-Choice," consistent with the Roe decision, holds that a woman's personal beliefs, somewhere along this spectrum, should bear significantly upon the decision whether or not to continue her pregnancy - and that the law and the State should not impose that decision upon her.

The semantic over-reach of the conservatives is best exemplified the designation of the product of conception, from the moment of unicellular fertilization (the "zygote"), as a "baby." Thus abortion, during even the earliest stages of embryonic and fetal development, is routinely referred to as "baby-killing."

The absurdity of this word-play was manifested about a decade ago in a legal case in Tennessee. After a few years of failed attempts to conceive a child, a couple agreed to try in-vitro fertilization. A few hours after fertilization, six developing cell-clusters were frozen in liquid nitrogen, in anticipation of later implantation. However, soon thereafter the marriage failed. The wife consented to have the embryos discarded, but the husband sued to have them preserved "just in case" he later married an infertile woman and desired to have children. Although (as I recall) nobody asked them, a "right to life" group then stepped in as a friend of the court (more accurately, "a friend of the zygotes"). In a half-hour that I vividly remember, the case was argued on CNN's "Crossfire," wherein the anti-abortion advocate repeatedly referred to those chilled, microscopic cell-clusters as "the poor babies." "Babies?!"

The pro-life forces discovered early-on that the conjoining of "killing" and "babies" produces powerful rhetorical ammunition, which they have since put to persistent and very effective use."
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Birch

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Posted: 12-03-07 16:23pm

Jules wrote:
Birch wrote:
I would have a conniption


Ooh I learnt a new word! Smile


I think this word was used best by Bill Cosby in his "The Same Thing Happens Every Night" when he talks about his wife having a conniption. I tried to find it on YouTube but this might be one you have to chuck out some dough for. It's great!

I enjoyed the articles on semantics, future. Thank you.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-03-07 19:39pm

I love that word!
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Kypros

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Posted: 12-04-07 13:56pm

Eiri wrote:
Or even two celled organisms. I maintain the obvious fact (in my mind) that a fetus does not truly become a person until it is born; and it does not have a right to life until it is developed enough to survive outside of the female's body.

Person = independent
In my opinion, anyway. No, not 100% independent. But at least a newborn isn't physically attached to someone; anyone now can give it care and love.


This pro-choice idea makes my body cringe every time I read it Mad. Eiri, how utterly pointless it is to say that a person is independent in your opinion. So, if a foetus is a person in a pro-lifer's opinion, then I guess abortion equates murder and must be made illegal. Semantics have dentoations for a reason; to be appreciated and used in its way, away from bias. In the dictionary, a human being and a person are the same! Supporting reproductive rights should inform women of truth, not spineless hypotheses. Foetuses are persons. Read a dictionary.

It so annoying when it is assumed by either pro-choicers or pro-lifers that a particular declaration is lop-sided. I'd say it's down to the individual not to let his/her mind think like that. Semantically speaking, abortions kill innocent babies who are no less a person than a born human but also remove an invading, scientifically less significant parasite from its host's body. To be honest, I could'nt give a toss which one you people prefer - they are both correct and I'm aware of the connotations of each one's usage, but it's all the same to me.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 12-04-07 16:25pm

It doesn't matter if a fetus is a person or not. No born person has the right to use another person's bodily resources against their will.

See McFall v. Shimp.
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