i was just laughing because thats the kind
of response you always get from some
religous, i dont have to prove anything
|
Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 767 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Thanks: 5
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 13:11pm
The OP asked what it would be like if God
did not exist, I explained that God is the
source of all Good things, I explained
that if God did not exist then I would
behave in certain ways different to what I
do now, people asked me if I needed God to
behave "good" I explained that everyone
needs God who is the source of all Good
things to be Good, people said they had a
sense of what is right and wrong in their
"hearts" I explained that is because there
is a God from whom all Good things come.
You asked me
"How can animals feel it is a not-smart
idea to kill their own kind? Almost NO
animal in the world murders its own kind.
It is programmed in them via evolution and
natural selection that killing one's own
species is bad, and is not going to help
the species survive in the long-run. It's
just logical that homicide makes no sense.
Tacking on the moral value of "bad" is a
purely human development. "
Animals "feel" it is not Good to kill
their own kind becuase there is a source
of all Good things, God, you proved it by
pointing to the animals.. You said...
"Humans do. We are social animals, just
like dolphins, chimps, wolves, etc. We
NEED each other to survive. We need social
interaction to stimulate our brains and
keep them healthy. Many other animals
suffer psychologicaly in isolation just as
humans do. It is literally part of our
blood and genes to form communnitties. "
you proved there is a common Good, and
that things opposed to the common Good are
Bad, you rightly pointed out t is part of
our "blood" and "genes" to form Good
things like communities, in other words to
try to act in a Good way, the fact you
have proved there is a common Good built
into all of us proves there is a source of
that common Good. Catholics believe the
source of all Goodness is God, therefore
you have proved God as catholics
understand God exists.
|
Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5557 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 90
Thanked:32
Posted: 11-06-07 13:40pm
I think if God didn't exist I would start
killing everyone I didn't like since he is
the only source of morals.
Oh wait, I don't believe God exists....
Look out ex-boyfriends!!
|
Rodge
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 905 Location: , England, UK
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 13:43pm
Well, now that I'm evil and amoral, I'd go
out and blow up a supermarket or two, but
I'm too lazy. Maybe you could do it on my
behalf, Georgia? I'm sure at least one of
your ex-boyfriends is shopping right
now...
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 593 Location: , Big D
Thanks: 12
Thanked:1
Another Non-believer Posted: 11-06-07 13:44pm
Gu£st
wrote:
If there were no God, I
would do what ever I wanted and needed to
do in order to obtain all the experiences
life could offer and then I would probably
kill myself....that would be all there was
to believe in.
Nothing would be wrong and nothing would
be right, If I wanted to rape someone I
would, If I wanted to mug an old lady, I
would, If I wanted to kill someone I
would, If I wanted money I would get it by
any means necceasery and kill anyone who
tried to stop me and at the end of doing
everything I wanted I would kill
myself.
Don't you get it. Morals comes from
within, a set of rules you follow because
of your upbringing and conscience. God
does not rule the planet except in your
mind. If you want to believe that without
God's influence, you would fall off the
wagon and reek havoc worldwide, then you
have no control over your conscious mind.
Your ramblings about God and religion are
getting old. God does not control me and
I'm certainly not going around, committing
crimes against society and ignoring man 's
laws. You're basically saying that without
God in your life, you would violate
whatever laws and tenets set up by the
majority of the society.
I don't believe in God. I don't believe
that there's a paradise waiting for all of
us (sinners like us will be forgiven
according to you). I believe in what I can
see and what can be proved scientifically.
I believe that we are biological organisms
(highly-evolved ones to be sure) that live
a certain number of years here on our
planet and when we die, we become worm
food or ashes. There is no consciousness
after death, no angels and no pearly gates
waiting to pass through.
I live my life by the golden rule, which
seems to work out perfectly in our
society. I am tolerant of all religions,
because I recognize that many people look
to religion to use as their crutch to get
through the many problems that befall us
all. I don't care if you have faith in an
unproveable diety, but I have faith in
myself.
And no matter how you phrase it or break
it down, your belief system does not rule
everyone's thinking. And all people who
don't believe in God are not somehow
inferior to you intellectually. I don't
comment much on the religion threads, but
your constant quoting of the bible reminds
me of preaching.
|
Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 767 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Thanks: 5
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 13:58pm
"I think if God didn't exist I would start
killing everyone I didn't like since he is
the only source of morals.
Oh wait, I don't believe God exists....
Look out ex-boyfriends!! "
If God didnt exist you would, but even
though you dont believe in him because he
does exist you dont.
"Don't you get it. Morals comes from
within, a set of rules you follow because
of your upbringing and conscience. "
From within?
From what blood and guts and muscles and
intestines...from within?
conscience....what is that, whats it look
like can we disect it in biology please?
"You're basically saying that without God
in your life, you would violate whatever
laws and tenets set up by the majority of
the society"
I am saying without God there would be no
society if God did not exist non of us
would behave the way we do.
"I believe in what I can see and what can
be proved scientifically"
like a conscience?
"no matter how you phrase it or break it
down, your belief system does not rule
everyone's thinking."
Not my belief system but God's moral law
writen on the hearts of mankind and
effected to us consicously through our
conscience.
"your constant quoting of the bible
reminds me of preaching."
I try to explain the reality and then give
people the bible passage that refers to
it, not so much to preach but so that
others can begin to understand what the
bible means.
|
Rodge
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 905 Location: , England, UK
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 14:03pm
...So, what about the Egyptians, and the
Greeks, and all those other pre-Biblical
societies? They seemed to get along okay.
(If you mention Joseph I will internet-hit
you. )
|
Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5557 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 90
Thanked:32
Posted: 11-06-07 14:07pm
I get what you're saying, Guest. I just
don't agree.
|
Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 767 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Thanks: 5
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 14:12pm
"So, what about the Egyptians, and the
Greeks, and all those other pre-Biblical
societies? They seemed to get along
okay."
god existed long before the bible, long
before mankind.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 14:33pm
Okay, look. If we're redefining God as
"The concept of all that is good" then
that's a completely different and NEW
religion. God in Christianity is an actual
BEING, as ethereal as he may be. He is an
actual person-type thing that you can
conceivably meet one day when you die.
However, the concept of "God is all that
is good" is completely different. God as
all that's good (abbreviated hereafter as
GTG) is not a person or a thing you can
meet; it is instead a CONCEPT. It is an
ethical force that
weaves everything together, much like the
Force in Star Wars. I for one do not
believe there is an ethical
force in the universe. I believe
any and all true ethics are purely human
creations (and creations of any other
sentient creature). Ethics are not real,
they are simply concepts.
Does this mean ethics aren't important? Of
course not. Humans need ethics, I believe.
We need to know how to behave around each
other. The thing is, these ethics derive
from our base instincts, and NOT from an
ethical force flowing
through us.
|
Gu£st
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 767 Location: SUBMERGED IN TRUTH
Thanks: 5
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 14:50pm
"If we're redefining God as "The concept
of all that is good" then that's a
completely different and NEW religion"
actually no its not, its just your hearing
true catholicism for the first time, at
the mass a ritual virtually unchanged for
2000 years we say " Through whom all good
things come" God is all that is Good, all
that is Good comes from him.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 14:58pm
No. IN Catholicism, God is represented as
an actual being. God is a Deity. HE
punishes people. HE commands invasions of
Soddom and Ghemorrha. HE talks to people.
God is a being.
I am talking about a completely different
concept. You are talking about a boat. I
am talking about the ocean.
|
meblonde01
Supporter
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 2132 Location: ,
Thanks: 6
Thanked:2
Posted: 11-06-07 14:58pm
Rodge
wrote:
...So, what about the
Egyptians, and the Greeks, and all those
other pre-Biblical societies? They seemed
to get along okay. (If you mention Joseph
I will internet-hit you. )
LOL internet hit you.. I want one.. silly!!
|
Georgia59
Moderator
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 5557 Location: Along the Mississippi, USA
Thanks: 90
Thanked:32
Posted: 11-06-07 16:57pm
Guest seems to think that if you don't
believe EXACTLY the way he does, you don't
understand the truth. (and he's rather
picky, too)
That way of thinking is a little too
convenient for me.
|
Mikolas
Moderator
Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 617 Location: Buffalo University, Hands off! My trained killer kitten has its aim set upon you!
Thanks: 19
Thanked:1
Posted: 11-06-07 17:52pm
Gu£st
wrote:
"How can animals feel it is
a not-smart idea to kill their own kind?
Almost NO animal in the world murders its
own kind. It is programmed in them via
evolution and natural selection that
killing one's own species is bad, and is
not going to help the species survive in
the long-run. It's just logical that not a
nice act makes no sense. Tacking on the
moral value of "bad" is a purely human
development. "
Animals "feel" it is not Good to kill
their own kind becuase there is a source
of all Good things, God, you proved it by
pointing to the animals.. You said...
"Humans do. We are social animals, just
like dolphins, chimps, wolves, etc. We
NEED each other to survive. We need social
interaction to stimulate our brains and
keep them healthy. Many other animals
suffer psychologicaly in isolation just as
humans do. It is literally part of our
blood and genes to form communnitties. "
I just wanted to point out the error of
"almost No animal in the world homicide
its own kind". Many many animals kill
their own kind (by kind I am going to
assume you mean species). "Programmed in
them via evolution and natural selection"?
Possibly, but if so creatures in general
are more likely to be programmed via
evolution and natural selection to not
kill it's own family members over their
own kind. Which is even then a very
unstable argument, since many animals do
kill their own family members. However,
within the animal kingdom, or anything
living in general, there is competition,
their own kind is part of that
competition. Thus, individually via
evolution and natural selection, these
species would be more compelled more to be
"concerned" about their own hides and
survival of their genes then they would of
the survival of the entire species as a
whole.
Humans for instance, many of us are now
complaining and highly concerned about the
issues of global warming/pollution (which
is supposed to destroy us one time or
another), so a few have decided to stop
using aerosol cans, start a bit of
recycling here and there, car pool here
and there, but the majority of us will
continue driving our little cars despite
us knowing that it is contributing to
global warming, but we deem it necessary
to carry on in our own lives even though
it will mean our future generations will
go bye bye. Meaning, we will continue to
be more concerned about our own lives and
family then the fate of the whole, animals
are similar in that respect, they are more
"concerned" with themselves and their
bloodline then they are of their species.
But like I said, even then, it is a weak
argument because many animals kill their
own family members (which is often
arguable in favor of evolution).
For example, a type of blue bird, I forgot
it's name, cute, kind of common. Guess
what, the father purposely gives it's sons
lack of attention, causing it to die,
scientists explains that this is so that
the father does not have to worry about
competition from its own sons from future
mates. Black widow spiders and many other
arthropods, arachnids, insects, know why
they are called black widow? Bluntly, they
use the males (which are significantly
smaller then the females) for sex, take
their soldiers to make some babies, and
then kill their "husband" and eat them for
food. Another arachnid, though a different
case, Wolf Spiders, second largest (I
think) spiders in existence, usually
dwells in forests. Very fast predators,
often on the move so the mothers have to
have her eggs on her back. When they are
born, she will die and be eaten by her
children. Lions, the famous king of the
jungle, do you know how often the males
kill cubs (baby lions)? They are one case
of being evolutionarily more focused for
their bloodlines then that of their
species. Lions, like most creatures, do
not commit to one mate, so oftentimes the
lioness will have the offspring of other
cubs while having another partner. What
usually occurs then? The current partner
will attempt to kill (and usually succeed
since the babies aren't much of a fighter)
the lioness's cubs when she isn't around
and ensures that only his cubs survives.
Which, after he leaves to go pimp with
another lioness, the next male will try to
kill the previous male's cubs when its his
turn with the ex-lioness. The famous Bald
Eagle, or eagles in general. One can kind
of visualize these beautiful birds of prey
to be symbolic of righteousness and
virtue, yada yada since it is America's
icon no? By the way, eagles often "commit"
Cainism (sounds familiar anybody?) and
kill their siblings.
I can keep on going all day about animals
killing their own species. Your
perspectives on evolution and natural
selection seems somewhat lacking sir or
ma'am, all of those killings mentioned
above actually, can be argued in favor of
evolution. Sorry, I see you around on
debates forum writing big essays and I've
never read them but I assumed you knew
what you were talking about. However, I
got really iffy when I saw "almost NO
animals slays its own kind" and your
assumption of why animals do what you
falsely thought they do. So I had to speak
up on behalf of my beloved animals. You
have assumed much of evolution and used
anthropomorphism (using human emotions to
explain an animal's action) to describe
why animals do the things they do. I took
Animal Behavior during high school (omg it
was soo cool, I got to go to the zoo every
tuesday, but my research project (one of
my monkeys) died! =( ), and you are
thus not justified to explain animal's
actions with anthropomorphic expressions.
"Animals "feel" it is not Good to kill
their own kind becuase there is a source
of all Good things, God, you proved it by
pointing to the animals.. You said..."
????? How would you know, were you a chimp
(they are highly territorial and will
fight other "tribes" of chimps with use of
simple weaponry such as sticks and stones
[yes, they are learning how to fight with
weapons now to KILL each other]or a
Hercules beetle at one point (which by the
way, sometimes kill one another in a
fighting ritual for dominance to a mate)
in your life? You are right to put
quotation marks on "feel, but very wrong
in assuming that they have an
understanding of good or bad. They simply
exist, their purpose in life is to
survive, they kill to survive, they do not
kill for unjustified reasons like humans
do, it is not about being a good little
chimp or a bad one, they aren't waiting
for some chimp santa claus or a chimp God,
don't state like you understand them based
on what you know with human experiences,
they only do what they must.
Just wanted to point out that the top
statement of his/hers in quotations
concerning animals and their actions are
completely false.
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 18:46pm
Those killings are not murder.
Murder has no benefit for the
species; all of the killings you mentioned
are evolutionarily advantageous in one way
or another. Murder is not.
|
Mikolas
Moderator
Joined: 02 Aug 2007 Posts: 617 Location: Buffalo University, Hands off! My trained killer kitten has its aim set upon you!
Thanks: 19
Thanked:1
Posted: 11-06-07 20:08pm
Eiri, you talking to me? I'm pretty sure I
used kill and not homicide... Boo
I thought I wrote what you stated Eiri,
that all the killings that occur within
the species I mentioned can be argued for
evolution.
I guess I sent out a bad message.
By the way, why can't I put homicide down
properly without it replacing it with "not
a nice act", it seems you other people can
type it down.
The forum is racist!!!!!!!!!! =)
Last edited by Mikolas on 11-06-07 20:17pm; edited 1 time in total
|
sillysallie1990
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 308 Location: ,
Posted: 11-06-07 20:15pm
lol what a controversial subject!!!
|
Tylanas
Especially EHEALTHy
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 12984
Thanks: 3
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-06-07 20:44pm
I do find the fact that I have to cheat to
type out "murder" very annoying. No, I
don't get away with it just because I'm a
mod!
|
Birch
Moderator
Joined: 07 Nov 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: Bliss,
Thanks: 159
Thanked:16
Posted: 11-06-07 22:12pm
Gu£st
wrote:
because people can "feel"
what is right and what is wrong in their
"heart" - this proves there is a
God.....take some time to think about
it.
We finally understand each other...we are
each a god with limitless potential.
)
