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meblonde01

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Posted: 11-02-07 09:21am

Marianne0558 wrote:
Here's my post in the "Limiting How Many Abortions a Woman Can Have" thread:

Marianne0558 wrote:
kaiti0103 wrote:


THEY GROW UP AND LEARN?!
Ive been in and out of "orphanages and foster homes. and uess what i grew up. but to this day still cry because of it...
some kids yes it makes them strong.
but about 65 percent of them try to kill themselves by the time there 15.
now.
at those statictics.
why would you have a baby so you can put it in an orphange let it hate itself and feel like a POS and try to hurt itself?

kaiteo wrote:
Would you rather have been aborted?

kaiti0103 wrote:
yes actually i wish i would have been

meblonde01 wrote:
Marianne0558 wrote:
meblonde01 wrote:


Do You feel if you ask a person who grew up in a home instead of being aborted that the majority of them would say they would rather have been aborted.. I think they would not say that.. That is my point. You can dance around it all you want to, but I really don't think they would rather have not been born..


And who are you to speak for these people? Have you been in an orphanage for your life?


Like I said.. I think most people would still say (even if they never got adoped) they would still rather live than to be aborted.. Just because they never get adoped doesn't mean they stay in there for ever! They leave when they get older.
I think even the ones in a bad ophanage would still rather have lived than to have been aborted..
< /div>


There you have it, mebolonde. Here is the person you wanted to ask. 65% attempted suicide rate?? Hmm... sounds like you were wrong about your assumption that most of these orphans would rather live. Sounds like 65% is a majority. Hmmm......


EDIT: I have no idea why my comment is in strike-through. ?


**It quotes the original one who said that.**



Yeah I would like to know where this came from.. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I would like to see the source.. I will ask her..

THEY GROW UP AND LEARN?!
Ive been in and out of "orphanages and foster homes. and uess what i grew up. but to this day still cry because of it...
some kids yes it makes them strong.
but about 65 percent of them try to kill themselves by the time there 15.
now.
at those statictics.
why would you have a baby so you can put it in an orphange let it hate itself and feel like a POS and try to hurt itself?
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 12:15pm

Eiri wrote:
I didn't state it originally!! Very
Happy Fine, I'll go find the post. I believe it is in this very topic.

Oh look, it was on page three. That would have taken you SO much effort.

Marianne0558 wrote:
I am for abortion because the children that end up in these orphanages, don't really have the best chance in life. A girl was on here just yesterday saying how she grew up in a home and wanted to die. She wish she had never been born. She informed us that about 65% of the children in those places attempt suicide.


I've done some research for you.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl e/0,9171,981992-2,00.html

Quote:
Most of the children stayed in foster care, sometimes bouncing from one family to another until they were pronounced "failures." Only then were they sent to group residential programs or -- for more troubled children -- facilities like Hollygrove. In accordance with the act, children were intended to stay at residential-treatment centers no more than two years. After that, "stabilized" kids were put back into the foster-care system; those still obviously asocial went to small "group homes" with psychiatric supervision.


Mm, sounds like fun.

Quote:
But in the 1980s [the system] imploded, leaving massive carnage. The crack epidemic unleashed a new tide of kids on overburdened social-service agencies. Beleaguered child-welfare workers juggled huge case loads, and soon the newspapers were filled with horror stories not only about failures to remove children from dangerous homes but also about abuse in foster families and kids who bounced almost unnoticed from one inappropriate foster-care experience to the next. A report commissioned by the Reagan Administration in the late '80s concluded: "Foster care is intended to protect children from neglect and abuse at the hands of parents and other family members, yet all too often it becomes an equally cruel form of neglect and abuse by the state."



Quote:
In the United States, children in Georgia have been incarcerated in jail-like facilities,
where they may be bound to a bed by their wrists and ankles as a disciplinary measure, or for
showing signs of suicidal behavior.

In the Baltimore City Detention Center in Maryland, guards will sometimes allow youths
to fight with each other in what is called the “square dance.” The two boys who are going to
fight are allowed in a little area about eight feet by eight feet, and everyone else is locked in their
cells. Jackson F. described a square dance: “There’s a lot of yelling from everybody, but if it
gets too loud the officers will tell you you need to be quiet or they’ll break up the dance. It ends up with busted heads, slashes over your eyes, broken fingers, cut lips, maybe a broken nose. But
you don’t go to the hospital for the cuts. If you did, there’d have to be a report, and the guards
would have to explain why two guys were out in the square while everybody else was locked
in.”

www.hfgf.org/statistics.pd f

Quote:
1. Institutionalization
a. Children in institutions are submitted to collective routines of a group.
b. They are often unable to make sufficient use of space to allow their unique
personalities to develop.
b. The longer children remain in an institutional environment, the greater the
chances are that they will experience learning, adjustment and attachment
difficulties later in life. They may also experience greater sensory motor
delays, educational difficulties, language problems, emotional and relationship
problems than children from the general population.
c. Some experts have estimated that children typically “lose” about one month of
growth for every three months of institutional care.i
d. Infants and toddlers require a stable and secure parental family unit and
hierarchy and an abundance of pure maternal and paternal physical and
emotional experiences.
e. Even the very best and well-funded orphanage care available (in any country,
including US) experience long-term medical, developmental, behavior and
emotional issues as a result of their orphanage experience.ii

2. Foster Care
a. This has proven to be very problematic in the US, whether lack of
permanency and feels of contingency have left many children with residual
psychological damage
b. Children who grew up in foster care flood the jails, mental hospitals and
welfare rolls.
h. See story of Larry Adams

adoptachild.us/PDF%20Documents/Speak%20for %20the%20Children%20Q&A.pdf

Quote:
In a memoir she's writing about growing up the way no child should have to, Todd has this to say of the foster-care system: "We are in prison for crimes our families committed."

Georgette Todd beat the odds on all counts, with the help of her surrogate mothers. She became one of the less than 5 percent of former foster children who earn college degrees.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/n ews/solutions/20050513-9999-7m13foster.htm l

Mmm, foster care and adoption just sound SO awesome, don't they!?

I couldn't find Marianne0558 source (or rather, the source of the girl who told her) so if she'd be so kind as to find that... I think I've provided enough proof of the hardships in general that a 62% suicide-attempt rate is NOT unbelievable.


OMG that is horrendous. I didn't know how horrible it was.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 12:28pm

To read what a nightmare the foster system is, check this out:

http://ww w.city-journal.org/html/9_1_foster_cares.h tml
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 12:32pm

To read what a nightmare the foster system is, check this out:

http://ww w.city-journal.org/html/9_1_foster_cares.h tml
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 12:39pm

Foster children and young people who are coming into care are particularly at risk for suicide. The successful prevention of a crisis depends on the ability of foster parents and agency staff members to understand the nature of the situation and work together in dealing with it.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebP ortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detail mini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearc h_SearchValue_0=EJ429032&ERICExtSearch _SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ42903 2




What the Science Says
In the time it takes to watch an episode of Law and Order SVU, five infants are being removed from their homes for abuse or neglect or both. During the time you’re getting ready to go to work, another five babies move into foster care. Everyday in the United States, 118 babies leave their homes because their parents cannot take care of them.1 The quality of their entire lives – at home and in foster care – is deeply troubling. Children between birth and three years have the highest rates of victimization, with infants accounting for almost 10% of all child maltreatment victims.2 Children ages 3 and younger are also 34% more likely to be placed in foster care than children ages 4 to 11.3 Once they have been removed from their homes and placed in foster care, infants stay in foster care longer than older children.4 Infants and toddlers who come into contact with the child welfare system are at great risk of compromised development.5 Approximately 42% of them are developmentally delayed, many of them so delayed that pediatricians consider them developmentally impaired.6
Babies and toddlers are the most vulnerable to the effects of maltreatment, and its impact on all aspects of their development can have life-long implications if not properly addressed. Research shows that young children who have experienced physical abuse have lower social competence, show less empathy for others, have difficulty recognizing others’ emotions, and are more likely to be insecurely attached to their parents.7 They are also more likely to have deficits in IQ scores, language ability, and school performance than children who have not been maltreated.8
The science of infant-toddler development and mental health is instructive to both professionals and policymakers working toward improving outcomes for infants and toddlers in the child welfare system. Indeed, the science makes it abundantly clear that positive intervention during the first years
of life is critical to children in the child welfare system. Consider these facts about infant-toddler development and mental health:
􀂃 Between birth and three years old, the brain cell connections that govern sight, hearing, and language are mapped out. External stimulation (positive and negative) has major influence over everything the brain regulates: among them are memory, emotions, and learning.9
􀂃 From the first days of life, infants remember what has happened in their lives. So called “perceptual memory” links growing babies to sights and smells that can trigger intense psychological and physiological responses.
􀂃 From smiles to averted gazes and yawns, babies are trying to communicate their needs and feelings to us.10
􀂃 It is now possible to identify signs of depression and other psychological disorders in babies as young as 3 months.11
􀂃 From birth, babies feel empathy toward other babies in distress.12
􀂃 Low birth weight and pre-maturity lead to developmental challenges for infants and put them at greater risk for a range of medical problems. It is estimated that forty percent of babies involved with the foster care system were born low birth weight or premature or both. More than half of these children suffer from serious health problems, including elevated lead blood-levels, and chronic diseases such as asthma.13
􀂃 Flying below the radar screen is Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD). It is a physical disability whose primary symptoms (e.g., poor judgment, impulsivity, difficulty learning from experience, slow developmental pace) are often misdiagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, attention deficit disorder, and emotionally disturbed. The brain damage is caused by alcohol and drugs that pass the placental barrier during pregnancy. It cannot be cured but, if correctly diagnosed and treated, accommodations can be made to allow people with FASD to lead productive lives.14
􀂃 The single most important predictor of a child’s healthy growth and development is the attachment s/he forms with a consistent, loving caregiver. A secure emotional bond with a loving caregiver gives infants the belief that they are worthwhile and gives them the ability to nurture themselves, care for those around them, and develop the motivation to learn about their world.
􀂃 Babies grieve when their caregivers disappear.
http://www.zerotothree. org/site/DocServer/Court_Teams_Sci_to_Poli cy.pdf?docID=2524
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Birch

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Posted: 11-02-07 13:39pm

meblonde01 wrote:
Birch wrote:
I thought that sounded fishy.


what sounds fishy? You lost the blonde some where in all of this Birchie..


That 60% of children raised in orphanages "try to commit suicide". I would be more inclined to believe that they may have suicidal ideation at some point in their lives, but then I would compare that to individuals who were not reared in an orphanage and maybe there would be similar results...
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meblonde01

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Posted: 11-02-07 14:21pm

Birch wrote:
meblonde01 wrote:
Birch wrote:
I thought that sounded fishy.


what sounds fishy? You lost the blonde some where in all of this Birchie..


That 60% of children raised in orphanages "try to commit suicide". I would be more inclined to believe that they may have suicidal ideation at some point in their lives, but then I would compare that to individuals who were not reared in an orphanage and maybe there would be similar results...


Yeah and maybe teens in general.. I wonder what the suicide rate is for teen agers.. I don't think it is that high but I will see if I can find out..
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meblonde01

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Posted: 11-02-07 14:36pm

[quote="futureshock"]Foster children and young people who are coming into care are particularly at risk for suicide. The successful prevention of a crisis depends on the ability of foster parents and agency staff members to understand the nature of the situation and work together in dealing with it.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebP ortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detail mini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearc h_SearchValue_0=EJ429032&ERICExtSearch _SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ42903 2




What the Science Says
In the time it takes to watch an episode of Law and Order SVU, five infants are being removed from their homes for abuse or neglect or both. During the time you’re getting ready to go to work, another five babies move into foster care. Everyday in the United States, 118 babies leave their homes because their parents cannot take care of them.1 The quality of their entire lives – at home and in foster care – is deeply troubling. Children between birth and three years have the highest rates of victimization, with infants accounting for almost 10% of all child maltreatment victims.2 Children ages 3 and younger are also 34% more likely to be placed in foster care than children ages 4 to 11.3 Once they have been removed from their homes and placed in foster care, infants stay in foster care longer than older children.4 Infants and toddlers who come into contact with the child welfare system are at great risk of compromised development.5 Approximately 42% of them are developmentally delayed, many of them so delayed that pediatricians consider them developmentally impaired.6
Babies and toddlers are the most vulnerable to the effects of maltreatment, and its impact on all aspects of their development can have life-long implications if not properly addressed. Research shows that young children who have experienced physical abuse have lower social competence, show less empathy for others, have difficulty recognizing others’ emotions, and are more likely to be insecurely attached to their parents.7 They are also more likely to have deficits in IQ scores, language ability, and school performance than children who have not been maltreated.8
The science of infant-toddler development and mental health is instructive to both professionals and policymakers working toward improving outcomes for infants and toddlers in the child welfare system. Indeed, the science makes it abundantly clear that positive intervention during the first years
of life is critical to children in the child welfare system. Consider these facts about infant-toddler development and mental health:
􀂃 Between birth and three years old, the brain cell connections that govern sight, hearing, and language are mapped out. External stimulation (positive and negative) has major influence over everything the brain regulates: among them are memory, emotions, and learning.9
􀂃 From the first days of life, infants remember what has happened in their lives. So called “perceptual memory” links growing babies to sights and smells that can trigger intense psychological and physiological responses.
􀂃 From smiles to averted gazes and yawns, babies are trying to communicate their needs and feelings to us.10
􀂃 It is now possible to identify signs of depression and other psychological disorders in babies as young as 3 months.11
􀂃 From birth, babies feel empathy toward other babies in distress.12
􀂃 Low birth weight and pre-maturity lead to developmental challenges for infants and put them at greater risk for a range of medical problems. It is estimated that forty percent of babies involved with the foster care system were born low birth weight or premature or both. More than half of these children suffer from serious health problems, including elevated lead blood-levels, and chronic diseases such as asthma.13
􀂃 Flying below the radar screen is Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD). It is a physical disability whose primary symptoms (e.g., poor judgment, impulsivity, difficulty learning from experience, slow developmental pace) are often misdiagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, attention deficit disorder, and emotionally disturbed. The brain damage is caused by alcohol and drugs that pass the placental barrier during pregnancy. It cannot be cured but, if correctly diagnosed and treated, accommodations can be made to allow people with FASD to lead productive lives.14
􀂃 The single most important predictor of a child’s healthy growth and development is the attachment s/he forms with a consistent, loving caregiver. A secure emotional bond with a loving caregiver gives infants the belief that they are worthwhile and gives them the ability to nurture themselves, care for those around them, and develop the motivation to learn about their world.
􀂃 Babies grieve when their caregivers disappear.
http://www.zeroto three.org/site/DocServer/Court_Teams_Sci_t o_Policy.pdf?docID=2524[/quot
I still don't see the 60% if that is what you are trying to point out..
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Marianne0558

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Posted: 11-02-07 18:43pm

Okay people, I'm sorry I ever brought it up, geezzzeeee!

First of all, the girl who was in and out of orphanages/foster care came up with that percentage on her own. She said she witnessed this. I never said she actually got the statistic from a credible source. The point was to show that not everyone who grows up in foster/orphanage care are "happy to be alive" and "would rather be there than have been aborted." Meblonde said that if you actually asked them, they would say they choose life over abortion...
What the girl said proved my point about that...

Time to drop that. And anyway, it doesn't really have anything to do with animal rights either.

I already stated that the girl didn't have a source and maybe if you people actually read everything, you would have figured that out a while ago.

Back to the topic at hand.

What does animal rights have to do with abortion anyway? Abortion is about women's rights, not the rights of puppies and kittens and little fluffy bunnies.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 19:42pm



You know, that is very typical of a pro-lifer, to ignore the horror being pointed out to them because it does not fit their agenda.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-02-07 19:45pm

Marianne0558 wrote:


Back to the topic at hand.

What does animal rights have to do with abortion anyway? Abortion is about women's rights, not the rights of puppies and kittens and little fluffy bunnies.


Some pro-lifers, like the person who started this thread, think that people who are pro-choice care more about animals than "babies", I guess.
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meblonde01

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Posted: 11-02-07 19:54pm

futureshock wrote:


You know, that is very typical of a pro-lifer, to ignore the horror being pointed out to them because it does not fit their agenda.


I'm not ignoring, but a statement was made with nothing to back it up.. if pro-lifers did that you would ask the same thing.. We all have to be accountable for our statements. If someone says 60% they should give a source. Both sides!
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Jincks013

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Re: Do Pro-choice Individuals Support Animal Rights?
Posted: 11-02-07 23:08pm

16 father wrote:
Do some pro-choice people support animal rights? Then why don't they care for humans?


Someone get my firestick....
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-03-07 07:32am

meblonde01 wrote:
futureshock wrote:


You know, that is very typical of a pro-lifer, to ignore the horror being pointed out to them because it does not fit their agenda.


I'm not ignoring, but a statement was made with nothing to back it up.. if pro-lifers did that you would ask the same thing.. We all have to be accountable for our statements. If someone says 60% they should give a source. Both sides!


Yes, but I DID NOT POST THAT, did I? My post was about SOMETHING ELSE.

If I had said, OK, here's the proof of that 65 number you were looking for,
then your post would have made sense. But I did not say any such thing.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-03-07 07:45am

futureshock wrote:
Foster children and young people who are coming into care are particularly at risk for suicide. The successful prevention of a crisis depends on the ability of foster parents and agency staff members to understand the nature of the situation and work together in dealing with it.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebP ortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detail mini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearc h_SearchValue_0=EJ429032&ERICExtSearch _SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=EJ42903 2




What the Science Says
In the time it takes to watch an episode of Law and Order SVU, five infants are being removed from their homes for abuse or neglect or both. During the time you’re getting ready to go to work, another five babies move into foster care. Everyday in the United States, 118 babies leave their homes because their parents cannot take care of them.1 The quality of their entire lives – at home and in foster care – is deeply troubling. Children between birth and three years have the highest rates of victimization, with infants accounting for almost 10% of all child maltreatment victims.2 Children ages 3 and younger are also 34% more likely to be placed in foster care than children ages 4 to 11.3 Once they have been removed from their homes and placed in foster care, infants stay in foster care longer than older children.4 Infants and toddlers who come into contact with the child welfare system are at great risk of compromised development.5 Approximately 42% of them are developmentally delayed, many of them so delayed that pediatricians consider them developmentally impaired.6

􀂃 Babies grieve when their caregivers disappear.
http://www.zerotothree. org/site/DocServer/Court_Teams_Sci_to_Poli cy.pdf?docID=2524



The reason I posted this was to give some insight at the horrors of the whole foster care system. I, personally, was completely ignorant to just how tragic the whole thing is, until I began reading about it just yesterday.


I also realized how so many children get put into that system. I used to be confused about it because I know that there is a long, long waiting list for couples to adopt babies, so how could there be half a million kids in foster care?

The answer is, most teens and other ill equipped women who give birth do not put their children up for adoption. They take them home from the hospital thinking they have a clue what they are doing.

They don't, and they don't have the money or support system either, and the babies end up being taken away from them and put in to foster care. Now these babies are considered "damaged", and nobody wants them, even though they are still babies.
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Verizon-y

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Posted: 11-03-07 07:51am

Does anybody know why that post and others have the sentences crossed out? I didn't look like that when I looked at it in preview.

Here is the crossed out part again, (fingers crossed).

The reason I posted this was to give some insight at the horrors of the whole foster care system. I, personally, was completely ignorant to just how tragic the whole thing is, until I began reading about it just yesterday.


I also realized how so many children get put into that system. I used to be confused about it because I know that there is a long, long waiting list for couples to adopt babies, so how could there be half a million kids in foster care?

The answer is, most teens and other ill equipped women who give birth do not put their children up for adoption. They take them home from the hospital thinking they have a clue what they are doing.

They don't, and they don't have the money or support system either, and the babies end up being taken away from them and put in to foster care. Now these babies are considered "damaged", and nobody wants them, even though they are still babies.[/quote]
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Marianne0558

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Posted: 11-03-07 08:48am

futureshock wrote:
Marianne0558 wrote:


Back to the topic at hand.

What does animal rights have to do with abortion anyway? Abortion is about women's rights, not the rights of puppies and kittens and little fluffy bunnies.


Some pro-lifers, like the person who started this thread, think that people who are pro-choice care more about animals than "babies", I guess.


That's a bunch of bullnanny. I love my dog, don't get me wrong, but of course I care more about babies! The ones in my life anyway. I love my daughter and niece waaaaay more than this dog.
The OP might be getting us confused with pro-abortionists.
Pro-choice is different.
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Birch

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Posted: 11-03-07 10:05am

futureshock wrote:


You know, that is very typical of a pro-lifer, to ignore the horror being pointed out to them because it does not fit their agenda.


Wait a minute...was it shown anywhere that 60% of children raised in orphanages "try to commit suicide"?

There's plenty to knock on meblonde about, but you can't say "it's typica"...to ignore the horror...because it does not fit with their agenda" when you haven't proven the very horror that she's talking about.

While yes, the foster care system is horrendous, and yes, undoubtably there are orphanges that are horrendous, I have a very hard time believing that almost 2/3 kids have an unsuccessful suicide attempt if they were raised in an orphanage. Suicidal ideation, perhaps, since a vast number of teens no matter what their circumstances may experience this, but an actual unsuccessful suicide attempt? I will be happy to eat my words but I'm not buyin'.

Marianne0558 wrote:
futureshock wrote:
Marianne0558 wrote:


Back to the topic at hand.

What does animal rights have to do with abortion anyway? Abortion is about women's rights, not the rights of puppies and kittens and little fluffy bunnies.


Some pro-lifers, like the person who started this thread, think that people who are pro-choice care more about animals than "babies", I guess.


That's a bunch of bullnanny. I love my dog, don't get me wrong, but of course I care more about babies! The ones in my life anyway. I love my daughter and niece waaaaay more than this dog.
The OP might be getting us confused with pro-abortionists.
Pro-choice is different.


I care more about animals than fetuses.
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16 father

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Posted: 11-03-07 10:49am

I didn't bother reading all of these posts. I started this initial post out of spite which was a mistake. I do believe a relation between pro-choice and animal rights can be formed however it takes more input. Time which I don't have. I apologize for not supporting my claim and will back it up at a further date on here.
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Marianne0558

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Posted: 11-03-07 11:57am

Birch wrote:

futureshock wrote:
Marianne0558 wrote:




Some pro-lifers, like the person who started this thread, think that people who are pro-choice care more about animals than "babies", I guess.


That's a bunch of bullnanny. I love my dog, don't get me wrong, but of course I care more about babies! The ones in my life anyway. I love my daughter and niece waaaaay more than this dog.
The OP might be getting us confused with pro-abortionists.
Pro-choice is different.


I care more about animals than fetuses.


I care more about animals than other people's fetuses as well. Now if it were my personal fetus, that would be a different story-depending on if I were keeping the baby or not.
Futureshock was talking about animals versus babies, not animals versus fetuses.
I care about the babies that are apart of my life, one of them being my daughter, one of them being my niece, the other my doggie Wink
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