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Debate Forums > Abortion Debate Forum > How Old Are You, And What Is Your Level of Education? (Page 2)
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Tylanas
on September 25th, 2007
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She's saying that if you are pro-life, you don't have empathy, and if you don't have empathy, your intelligence is lower. In other words, you're dumber. Just her words, not mine!
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nightangel73
replied on September 25th, 2007
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Birch wrote:


This is going to get me blasted, but I also believe those with a heavily religious belief system are also not gifted with certain forms of intelligence - inter- and intrapersonal intelligence. They are given something to believe in because either they do not believe in themselves, they do not want to question their beliefs...an easy way out because they want the thinking done for them. This all ties in with the lack of empathy/prolife viewpoint and the lack of interpersonal intelligence.



Birch do you refer to christians here?

Are you saying lack of empathy because we wouldn't like unborn children to be aborted? If that is then I'm proud to lack empathy and have lower intelligence
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Verizon-y
replied on September 25th, 2007
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Birch wrote:
futureshock wrote:
Jules wrote:
Why?

Are you hoping to prove that pro-choicers have a higher education level than pro-lifers?


No, I think there are a lot of teenagers that write in this forum and I am curious how old they are. I don't think pro-lifers have any different education level than the rest of society. Do you?


Now this is a terrible, horrible, and awful generalization, but I generally feel that if I am talking to someone who is prolife then their intelligence level is indeed lower than a prochoice individual. Let me define this particular kind of intelligence as interpersonal intelligence, not necessarily math smarts or artistic smarts or any of the other differentiated intelligences.

I say this because I think it takes intelligence to have empathy - that they are mutually exclusive. I believe someone who is prolife lacks this empathy...and...well, you see where I am going.

This is going to get me blasted, but I also believe those with a heavily religious belief system are also not gifted with certain forms of intelligence - inter- and intrapersonal intelligence. They are given something to believe in because either they do not believe in themselves, they do not want to question their beliefs...an easy way out because they want the thinking done for them. This all ties in with the lack of empathy/prolife viewpoint and the lack of interpersonal intelligence.

And different religions seem to invoke different responses to me as far as this is concerned. A devout Christian does not strike me as an independent thinker - more of a surface level kind of person; but a 'spiritual' person seems to have more essense to themselves; they have worked things out and they seem deeper and more settled in reality and how people feel and how people communicate and react with each other.

Yes, this is very generalized, and my humble opinion. But I do find it to be true time and time again.


I think that was very well said, and it mirrors my feelings exactly.

I wrote a thread about the differences in the way pl and pc people think that some of you may find interesting. Here is the first post which includes a link to the entire text:


The Conservative Mind

futureshock3 wrote:
What do these beliefs have in common?

Anti-gay
Anti-abortion
Anti-gays in the military
Anti-gay marriage
Anti-gun control
Pro-death penalty
Pro-war

etc., etc.

They are the beliefs that many right wing religious conservatives hold.

A very in depth study was done on the mentality of the conservative person.
I can't believe I have to even say this, but, for those of you who don't get it:

THIS DOES NOT MEAN EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO IS A CONSERVATIVE FALLS INTO THIS CATEGORY OR BELIEVES THIS WAY.

Ok?

The study found some common themes in the conservative personality:


http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.p df

RWA= right wing authoritarinism

Past research and theory on conservatism in sociology, economics,
and political science has often assumed that people adopt
conservative ideologies out of self-interest
(see Sears & Funk,
1991). This account fits well with data indicating increased conservatism
among upper-class elites (e.g., Centers, 1949; Sidanius
& Ekehammar, 1979). Although we grant that self-interest is one
among many motives that are capable of influencing political
attitudes and behavior, our review requires a reexamination of this
issue. Specifically, many of the theories we integrate suggest that
motives to overcome fear, threat, and uncertainty may be associated
with increased conservatism, and some of these motives
should be more pronounced among members of disadvantaged and
low-status groups. As a result, the disadvantaged might embrace
right-wing ideologies under some circumstances to reduce fear,
anxiety, dissonance, uncertainty, or instability
(e.g., Jost, Pelham,
Sheldon, & Sullivan, 2003; Lane, 1962; Nias, 1973), whereas the
advantaged might gravitate toward conservatism for reasons of
self-interest or social dominance


[T]wo core dimensions of political conservatism—resistance to change and acceptance of inequality—are often related to one another, they are obviously distinguishable. Vivid counterexamples come to mind in which the two dimensions are negatively related to one another. For instance, there is the “conservative paradox” of right-wing revolutionaries,
such as Hitler or Mussolini or Pinochet, who seem to advocate social change in the direction of decreased egalitarianism. In at
least some of these cases, what appears to be a desire for change
is really “an imaginatively transfigured conception of the past with
which to criticize the present”

Scores on the RWA Scale have been found to predict a broad
range of attitudes and behaviors related to social, economic, and
political conservatism as defined in the general culture at the time.
For instance, the scale has correlated reliably with political party
affiliation; reactions to Watergate; pro-capitalist attitudes; severity
of jury sentencing decisions; punishment of deviants; racial prejudice;
homophobia; religious orthodoxy; victim blaming; and acceptance
of covert governmental activities such as illegal bugging,
political harassment, denial of the right to assemble, and illegal
drug raids
(Altemeyer, 1981, 1988, 1996, 1998). Peterson et al.
(1993) reported correlational evidence linking authoritarianism to
a wide variety of conservative attitudes, including opposition to
environmentalism, abortion rights, diversity on university campuses,
and services for AIDS patients and homeless people.
Ray
(1973), in questioning the discriminant validity of RWA, reported
a correlation of .81 between the RWA Scale and his own conservatism
scale. Altemeyer (1996, 1998) summarized the results of
several studies of the attitudes of Canadian and U.S. legislators in
which he found strong differences in RWA between conservative
politicians and others and concluded that
High RWA lawmakers also score higher in prejudice, and wish they
could pass laws limiting the freedom of speech, freedom of the press,
the right of assembly, and other freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of
Rights. They want to impose strict limitations on abortion, they favor
capital punishment, and they oppose tougher gun control laws. Finally,
politicians answer the RWA Scale with such extraordinary
levels of internal consistency, it appears the scale provides our most
powerful measure of the liberal-conservative dimension in politics.
(Altemeyer, 1998, p. 53)

CONSERVATISM AS MOTIVATED SOCIAL COGNITION 345

Scores on the scale have been found also to
correlate reliably with identification with the Republican party,
nationalism, cultural elitism, anti-Black racism, sexism, RWA, and
the belief in a just world (Altemeyer, 1998; Pratto et al., 1994).
The scale predicts policy attitudes that are supportive of “law and
order,” military spending, and capital punishment, as well as
attitudes that are unsupportive of women’s rights, racial equality,
affirmative action, gay and lesbian rights, and environmental action
(see Jost & Thompson, 2000; Pratto et al., 1994). It is of
theoretical interest that, in addition to the notion of legitimizing the
status quo, social dominance theory also implies the notion that
increasing the degree of hierarchy or group dominance is a motivationally
appealing ideological goal at least under some circumstances,
such as when one belongs to a high-status group (Altemeyer,
1998; Pratto, 1999; Sidanius & Pratto, 1999).
In a very useful discussion, Altemeyer (1998) distinguished
between the motivational bases of RWA and SDO. He argued that
RWA best accounts for passive deference or submission to authoritarian
or fascist leaders—including the tendency to “trust unworthy
people who tell them what they want to hear” (Altemeyer,
1998, p. 87), whereas SDO best accounts for more active attempts
to punish or humiliate derogated out-group members, that is, the
desire to “become the alpha animal” (Altemeyer, 1998, p. 87).
Altemeyer (1998) compared the two motivational types as follows:
Right-wing authoritarians, who do not score high on [personal power,
meanness, and dominance], seem to be highly prejudiced mainly
because they were raised to travel in tight, ethnocentric circles; and
they fear that authority and conventions are crumbling so quickly that
civilization will collapse and they will be eaten in the resulting jungle.
In contrast, High SDO’s already see life as “dog eat dog” and—
compared with most people—are determined to do the eating. (p. 75)

there is a clear indication in Tetlock’s data that conservative
ideologues are generally less integratively complex than
their liberal or moderate counterparts (see Table 3). For example,
a study of U.S. senatorial speeches in 1975 and 1976 indicates that
politicians whose voting records were classified as either liberal or
moderate showed significantly more integrative complexity than
did politicians with conservative voting records, even after controlling
for political party affiliation (Tetlock, 1983). These results
were replicated almost exactly in a study of U.S. Supreme Court
justices by Tetlock et al. (1985). In neither of these studies were
liberals found to be significantly less (or more) complex in their thinking than

were moderates.

Additional evidence does suggest that an overall main effect
relationship holds between cognitive complexity and political conservatism.
Tetlock’s (1984) study of members of the British House
of Commons revealed a moderate negative correlation between
integrative complexity and ideological conservatism (r  –.30, p
 .01). He found that the most integratively complex politicians
were moderate socialists, who scored significantly higher on complexity
than extreme socialists, moderate conservatives, and extreme
conservatives. Tetlock, Hannum, and Micheletti (1984)

Dogmatism NOUN: Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief.
Inflexibility
Intolerance of ambiguity
Integrative complexity
Cognitive flexibility
Cognitive complexity



They found that liberals and
moderates scored significantly higher than conservatives on integrative
complexity



The crux of Wilson’s (1973b) theory is that ambiguity and
uncertainty are highly threatening to conservatives. Wilson, Ausman,
and Mathews (1973) examined the artistic preferences of
people who scored high and low on the C-Scale by soliciting
evaluative ratings of paintings that had been classified as either
simple or complex and either abstract or representational. They
found that conservatives exhibited a relatively strong preference
for simple rather than complex paintings and a much weaker
preference for representational rather than abstract paintings (see
Table 5). Similarly, it has been shown that conservatives were
more likely to prefer simple poems over complex poems (Gillies &
Campbell, 1985) and unambiguous over ambiguous literary texts
(McAllister & Anderson, 1991). Similar results have been obtained
when preferences for familiar versus unfamiliar stimuli
were compared. For instance, Glasgow and Cartier (1985) demonstrated
that conservatives were more likely than others to favor
familiar over unfamiliar music. Converging results that political
conservatives are less tolerant of ambiguity, less open to new
experiences, and more avoidant of uncertainty compared with
moderates and liberals may provide a psychological context for
understanding why congressional Republicans and other prominent
conservatives in the United States have sought unilaterally to
eliminate public funding for the contemporary arts (Lehrer, 1997).
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Tylanas
replied on September 25th, 2007
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Yes NightAngel, she's saying that because you refuse to understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women, that you lack empathy and intelligence
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nightangel73
replied on September 25th, 2007
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Eiri wrote:
Yes NightAngel, she's saying that because you refuse to understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women, that you lack empathy and intelligence


I perfectly understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women. That is tough yada yada..and they shouldn't have a baby they don't want yada yada..it doesn't take rocket science to understand that. I fully understand it is tough call. But because we are humans and what we talk here is a new human life being involved we shouldn't just look forward to kill it particulary if there is help out there. We should let selfishness aside, work harder and just give this new life a chance.
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Tylanas
replied on September 25th, 2007
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Women don't look forward to abortion. It's like having to put down a beloved pet, or pulling the plug on a relative in a coma. It is not fun, but it is the correct, humane thing to do. Abortion is incredibly empathetic. The woman is thinking about the embryo and the life she doesn't want it to live: One full of abuse, no love, and no home.
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HcoBrunette06
replied on September 25th, 2007
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The topic has changed but I'm a senior in highschool =)
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Verizon-y
replied on September 26th, 2007
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nightangel73 wrote:
Eiri wrote:
Yes NightAngel, she's saying that because you refuse to understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women, that you lack empathy and intelligence


I perfectly understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women. That is tough yada yada..and they shouldn't have a baby they don't want yada yada..it doesn't take rocket science to understand that. I fully understand it is tough call. But because we are humans and what we talk here is a new human life being involved we shouldn't just look forward to kill it particulary if there is help out there. We should let selfishness aside, work harder and just give this new life a chance.


This post proves you do not have empathy for the pregnant woman. Do you know what empathy means?
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marvel
replied on September 26th, 2007
Supporter
22. Almost done my Double Major in Comparative Religion and Anthropology. Hoping to continue graduate studies in Social Work!
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Verizon-y
replied on September 26th, 2007
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marvel, that is a fascinating combination of majors!!!!!
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Jules
replied on September 26th, 2007
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I just realised that I was so busy being witty (ahem) that I did not answer the question.

I am 27 and I am a university graduate.
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Birch
replied on September 26th, 2007
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I'm not really sure I have more to add to what I already said, but I do want to reiterate the differences between intelligences. I don't have a lot of time this a.m. so to put it quick, I think that prolife 'generally' lack interpersonal/social intelligence skills; not that they are "stupid" or have any less of a measurable IQ (since IQ tends to measure more concrete things like spacial intelligence or mathematical intelligence).

I think it takes this kind of social intelligence to understand why a woman would want an abortion, and even if you didn't like it, you could understand it and empathize with her.

Nightangel I know you are very smart, and I do not mean to insult you in any way. I am generalizing here my experiences with prolife; that does not necessarily mean that you fit the category.
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Birch
replied on September 26th, 2007
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Eiri wrote:
She's saying that if you are pro-life, you don't have empathy, and if you don't have empathy, your intelligence is lower. In other words, you're dumber. Just her words, not mine!


You need to cease speaking for me. You consistantly get it incorrect.
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nightangel73
replied on September 26th, 2007
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futureshock wrote:
nightangel73 wrote:
Eiri wrote:
Yes NightAngel, she's saying that because you refuse to understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women, that you lack empathy and intelligence


I perfectly understand the viewpoint of the pregnant women. That is tough yada yada..and they shouldn't have a baby they don't want yada yada..it doesn't take rocket science to understand that. I fully understand it is tough call. But because we are humans and what we talk here is a new human life being involved we shouldn't just look forward to kill it particulary if there is help out there. We should let selfishness aside, work harder and just give this new life a chance.


This post proves you do not have empathy for the pregnant woman. Do you know what empathy means?


how is this lacking empathy for the pregnant woman? (and I know what empathy is) So do I have to agree with abortion and support a decision of her to abort to become empathethic? I don't think so. I feel sorry for the woman but hell no way I will tell her to abort.
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nightangel73
replied on September 26th, 2007
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Birch wrote:
I'm not really sure I have more to add to what I already said, but I do want to reiterate the differences between intelligences. I don't have a lot of time this a.m. so to put it quick, I think that prolife 'generally' lack interpersonal/social intelligence skills; not that they are "stupid" or have any less of a measurable IQ (since IQ tends to measure more concrete things like spacial intelligence or mathematical intelligence).

I think it takes this kind of social intelligence to understand why a woman would want an abortion, and even if you didn't like it, you could understand it and empathize with her.

Nightangel I know you are very smart, and I do not mean to insult you in any way. I am generalizing here my experiences with prolife; that does not necessarily mean that you fit the category.


It's okay Birch I know what you mean. It's like when I think of my brother, a brilliant (academia) man that graduate engineering degree with honors from the top university and then be so low intelligent to use drugs. Does not make sense.
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meblonde01
replied on September 26th, 2007
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Eiri wrote:
She's saying that if you are pro-life, you don't have empathy, and if you don't have empathy, your intelligence is lower. In other words, you're dumber. Just her words, not mine!


That is so untrue, and you saying it makes you look like the "Dumber One"

What a stupid statement.. Lets see where you get your facts on that one!
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Jincks013
replied on September 26th, 2007
Extremely eHealthy
Don't pay much attention to world politics do you Nightangel? How was forcing gestation empathic to this woman? Or the girl in Ireland that had the fetus that had a severe chromosonal abnormality? Or the woman whose husband will beat the bejezzus out of her for being pregnant when he wants no more children and their contraception failed? Or the girl whose family disowns her for being a pregnant teenager?
How about the one who in desperation takes her own life so she won't have to continue a pregnancy from her rapist?
I dunno.. you tell me where the empathy in PL is.. I just don't see it.

Poland loses ruling in abortion case

The European Court of Human Rights today confirmed Poland will have to pay compensation to a woman who nearly went blind after being denied an abortion under strict Polish laws.

Poland had appealed an order by the Strasbourg-based court in March to pay the woman €39,000. Judges rejected that appeal yesterday, a court spokesman said this afternoon.

The verdict in March enraged the conservative government of Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski. The ruling coalition has been pushing for a total ban on abortion in the predominantly Roman Catholic country, which already has one of the strictest abortion laws in the European Union.

Polish law allows a pregnancy to be terminated only when it threatens the life or health of the mother, when the baby is likely to be permanently handicapped or when it originates from rape.

In March, the European based court ruled that Alicja Tysiac, whose eyesight worsened after the baby girl was born and who is now registered as disabled, had been denied her human rights under Poland's anti-abortion laws.

Ms Tysiac, who is bringing up three children alone, suffers from an eye disease and cannot see objects more than 1.50 metres away. She receives a monthly disability pension equivalent to €140.

Ms Tysiac became pregnant in 2000. Three doctors told her she could go blind if she gave birth to her third child, but they refused to write her a certificate that would authorise an abortion.
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nightangel73
replied on September 26th, 2007
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jincks I agree with abortion when there is severe deformities. It only makes sense in these cases. What I don't agree is with the social abortions where both mom and fetus are fully healthy.
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Jincks013
replied on September 26th, 2007
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Why? abortion is abortion no matter the outside factors. Why is it more acceptable for you if I abort due to attack or risk of my health and safety then if I am simply not williing to be pregnant right now?
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meblonde01
replied on September 26th, 2007
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Jinck.. do you think it is ok for a man or women,, to take their live because they just can't cope with life anymore? It's their body right? should they be able to take their life if they want to?
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