I do disagree.

I believe very strongly in Personal Rights. My rights to do whatever I want to myself and to the areas around me extend all the way... until your body starts. The Moment I infringe upon YOUR personal rights, that's where mine end.

A zef very powerfully invades a woman's personal space and violates her personal rights. It doesn't matter how human it is; her body comes first. This applies to born people and the unborn. It's universal, and it isn't biased towards fetuses or towards adults. That's why it works.

Because it is unbiased, it does NOT say that one group of humans has no right to life. It says all humans who invade my personal space loose their own.

That's why I was taught never to start a fight, but it was fine to end them. If you violate my personal rights by punching me, I've got the right to defend myself.

I personally see this as very clear, and very obvious. It is why rape is wrong. It is why murder and assault is wrong.

Couldn't have said that better myself.
I believe people should do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe upon any one else's beliefs/rights.

What say does the little guy/girl have to say about their life? NOTHING! So what you say is ok for you is not ok for a possible person inside of you, they don't get the choice that you do. You decide for them.

I think until they are able to say something for themselves, they can't say anything. (ie, breath the air and create sounds in protest as in crying, etc.)

"I do disagree."

Okay I am keeping an open mind!

"I believe very strongly in Personal Rights. "

Straight away I disagree with the premise of your argument because dosnt Personal rights stand on the fundemental right to life... what personal rights could we possibly have if not the right to life?

"My rights to do whatever I want to myself and to the areas around me extend all the way... until your body starts. "

I agree totally, that is bodily attonomy - that itself stands only in so far as you yourself have the right to life.

"The Moment I infringe upon YOUR personal rights, that's where mine end."

100% with you all the way!!!

"A zef very powerfully invades a woman's personal space and violates her personal rights."

but it does not violate her right to life upon which that stands.

"It doesn't matter how human it is; her body comes first.This applies to born people and the unborn. It's universal, and it isn't biased towards fetuses or towards adults. That's why it works. "

but surely that human beings right to life comes first, since the right to life always comes first and is the right upon which all personal rights stand.

"Because it is unbiased, it does NOT say that one group of humans has no right to life. It says all humans who invade my personal space loose their own. "

I see your point but I dont think a person who touches you accidently should loose his right to life, just because you take offense to being touched accidently. even if he touched you on purpose, even to the point of rape s/he should have some of their personal rights taken away because they infringed on your personal right but to have their fundemental right to life taken away is extreeme and would be putting personal rights above the fundemental right to life upon which all personal rights stand.

"That's why I was taught never to start a fight, but it was fine to end them. If you violate my personal rights by punching me, I've got the right to defend myself."

Of course you have the right to defend yourself, but to kill someone for merely punching you is a bit extreemist, if your life was in danger that would be good reason but a punch?

"I personally see this as very clear, and very obvious. It is why rape is wrong. It is why homicide and assault is wrong."

Well I agree with what you say about Rape and assualt but not murrder, murrder is worse than assualt and rape in that it takes away the fundemental right to life of another human being, murrder is far worse than both rape and assualt.

"I believe people should do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe upon any one else's beliefs/rights."

I agree which is why I oppose abortion.

"I think until they are able to say something for themselves, they can't say anything"

I believe if a mute is about to have his life taken away because he cant speak for himself it is our duty as a caring society to stand up and protect his rights. If a human being can not speak for themselves they need protection the most.

so they have no say about thier bodies like women should have? even though, they too could be a women/man one day just like us. seems sort of all one sided doesn't it?

How can you say that rape doesn't take away the fundamental right to life?
Rape can traumatize the uterus so badly that it is unable to support life for a child anyway. What about those women who can never have a child due to a rape?

When a person is in a vegetated state, their brain is basically dead. Why is it not wrong to pull the life support plug?
When abortion is performed (9 times out of 10), it is so early that the fetus doesn't even have a brain developed. They don't even have arms/legs.

9 times out of 10 they are in that stage when aborted? Cound you show me where you got your numbers?

FROM PLANNED PARENTHOOD

More than 90 percent of all induced abortions are performed during the first trimester (the first three months of pregnancy). In fact, more than half are performed within the first two months of pregnancy. These abortions are usually performed at a clinic or in a doctor's office, and the women go home an hour or so later.

Fewer than nine percent of abortions take place in the second trimester (14 through 24 weeks of pregnancy). Abortions in the second trimester are more complicated procedures but are also quite safe.

Abortion in the last three months of pregnancy is extremely rare. Only one out of 10,000 abortions takes place after 24 weeks. It requires hospitalization and is performed only when the pregnancy seriously threatens a woman's health or life or when the fetus is severely deformed.

"How can you say that rape doesn't take away the fundamental right to life?
Rape can traumatize the uterus so badly that it is unable to support life for a child anyway. What about those women who can never have a child due to a rape?"

I understand it is a heinous crime but it is a violation of personal right not the fundemental right to life, I can understand life for a life ( although I dont agree with it) but not personal right for a life.

I just find it interesting that pro-choice say it is their body so it is their decision to decide what to do and yet what is growing inside of them would also be a living person like them selves but have no choice in their destiny. And have no choice with their bodies to live or die. Even if they are considered to be non-human-blob-nothing while in a women. The end result would be to have a choice just like the women. But their choice is taken away by the choice of another. Doing just what they are against. Taking away someone’s choice.

meblond, your exacly right, there is nothing pro choice about being pro choice, infact the pro life possiton is evidently more pro choice.... i have never thought about it like that.

How about when they actually have a body and a mind then they can have a say?

Or do you think that a single cell that can only be seen under a microscope
should have a say?

The end result of a sperm is a person. The end result of an egg is a person. Why don't sperm and eggs have rights?

Don't you see that you are ARBITRARILY deciding WHEN a potential person has rights?

Do you know what ARBITRARILY means?

well technichly they do have a body and a mind, so i guess they have the right.

dont you see that you are deciding Arbitarly when to give a human being the right to life, your basing your opinion on phiolsophy of personhood and viability (that changes from year to year) on nothing that really signifies, these are all made on your discresion, your arbitary position. However the pro life position is based on a solid iconic biological fact and is NOT ARBITARY opinion.

guest...you ask...: should all human beings have the right to life


takeing away the choice to abort would we takeing away a "right to life". your body,your fetus,your life...your choices..your RIGHT TO YOUR LIFE

its like saying...

everyone MUST marry into their own race
GAY/LESBIAN couples should not be reconized and we shouldnt let them have choices like other people in life have

AFRICAN AMERICANS MUST go to different schools than anglos...

just because some people feel that its right to abort doesnt mean that others will. just like some people thing gay marriage is ok and others dont. just like some people think only white people should marry white people and black people should marry blacks
if we leave the choice in the hands of ONE group of people (in this case either pro lifers or pro choicers) then it wouldnt be fair because not all people feel the same and no one in the history of the subject on abortion will ever all be able to agree on it

People who don't have a problem with abortion feel that the fetus has not achieved 'personhood' at the point when it is ok to abort.

People who have a problem with abortion feel that the fetus reaches 'personhood' the moment it is conceived.

This won't ever change.

I am saying it would be just as you are and eventally have a say. But your choice takes it's choice away. Just like you don't want done to you!