I agree with the first part of your post, NUN -- because that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Just because I would definitely have an abortion, doesn't change the fact that I am pro-choice. It's not like I am asking for the option to removed from me personally. I also like your distinction of anti-abortion for themselves. That is more reasonable a position than anti-choice.

Like it or not, "pro-life" means "against having the choice to have an abortion." "Anti-abortion" is something you can be for yourself, while being pro-choice for everyone else, since it doesn't say that you would like the CHOICE to abort or not taken away from you.

Pro-Life isn't the opposite of Pro-Choice, its the opposite of Pro-Abortion. Pro-Choice is the Opposite of Anti-Choice whether that is the way China has it set where you MUST have an abortion or the way some laws were set up that you MUST have the baby. We can't pretend here that there is no such thing as forced or coerced childbirth and/or abortion. Political spin has it set up this way so that there really isn't a negative connotation with having a preference for life or having a preference for choice.

So you are saying that if someone claims to be "Pro-Life", they are not generally saying that they don't believe that women should be allowed to have an abortion? That someone who says they are "pro-life" isn't looking to have abortion outlawed?

In a way, I agree that pro-choice is the opposite of anti-choice -- logically. But no one out there claims to be "anti-choice". They claim they are "pro-life". But that just means they are anti-choice. They don't want women to have the choice to abort.

Pro-life sometimes has the same meaning as anti-abortion. Why can't someone be pro-life for their own unborn offspring? You probably can't help thinking that pro-life is equal to anti-choice.

I'm saying those who are anti-choice and those who are pro-abortion hide behind the convenient and pretty labels of pro-life and pro-choice rspectively.

The basic principal argument in pro-life is that the fetus is a human being and for that reason those who are pro-life/anti-choice think the pregnant woman should not have the option of aborting/ending the life of the fetus.
Then there are those of us who feel yes it is indeed a human being BUT it's a human being in the precarious stituation of needing and demanding things the fetus's mother may not or can not supply. Not every woman will be ok with this person being in their womb and we think that is their right to 1) not be ok with it and 2) remove their fetus. We don't necessarily want it, condemn it, condone it or are angered by it, just don't agree with it for ourselves and trust others to make the right decision about it for themselves. We are for human life but respect that in the situation of pregnancy the woman should have a legal option to continue or abort.

I think children are WONDERFUL lots of people disagree. I'm pro-baby pro-reproductive rights.

I disagree with your assumptions, Phenicks. I don't consider myself to be "hiding" behind a label. If I were "pro-abortion" then I would only support the option to abort when a woman finds herself in a bind. My common response is to tell said woman to research her options and think deeply about what she wants to do.

Women aren't children and we don't need someone holding our hands 24/7. We can make our own choices in life and if we make a bad one, we have nobody to blame except ourselves.

As it pertains to the abortion debate, the labels "prolife" and "prochoice" are accurate. Personally I'd feel inclined to label prolifers as "pro-slavery" or "pro-rape" since they advocate unwilling use of a woman's body, but I choose not to slap those labels down unless a particularly sexist person starts slamming prochoice women with nasty names.

Most other times, we must remain civil and remember that there's a human being behind those labels we like to toss.

What does "pro-abortion" mean, anyway? "Pro-life" (misleading term, since it only focuses on abortion, but whatever) wants to stop all abortions (or, for some less restrictive adherents, all but the very few which they have deemed acceptable under a very few conditions). That would then mean that "pro-abortion" wants all pregnancies aborted.

Now, maybe I am missing something out there in the blogosphere, but I don't recall that the "pro-abortion" stance is all that visible. Aside from the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, which is very keen on contraception, but does focus on "voluntary" as well, so obviously would never seek to force anyone to abort. Unlike "pro-lifers" who would like to force women to not abort.

Darkmoon unless you are pro-abortion your entire post is completely and utterly irrelevant. I urge you to read the VERY FIRST sentence of the post to which you are responding to find out why.

Thanks in advance.

Basic english, not what people have applied these terms to mean. Pro-life is FOR LIFE. Pro-Choice would mean for CHOICE. Anti-abortion is against abortion Pro-abortion is for abortion. Get it?

Now I am by literal meaning and political meaning pro-life FOR ME as in against abortion for ME yet I am pro-choice in the literal and political meaning for everyone else as in I support the legal right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, baby, surrogacy, invitro or adoption. I support life over any other choice in all circumstances for ME with the exception being when deadly force is necessary to preserve one or multiple lives against another. Self preservation, Self is a life still pro-life. I am also Pro-Choice, you are free to choose whether you think like me or not, free to choose whether or not you will continue a pregnancy raise a child you have bore, be a surrogate whatever floats your reproductive boat.

BUT pro-lifers have taken pro-life to mean against abortion. It sounds better than anti-abortion because it implies the opposition is against life. Their position has more to do with forcing tohers to see thigns and do things their way than it has to do with life. Because they aren't really jsut pro-life they are anti-abortion for EVERYONE. SOme of them even had abortinos in the past and use their "dreadful experience" as evidence that it should be banned.

Pro-choicers have taken pro-choice to mean pro-abortion, much on pro-choice sites now pretty much demeans and trivializes a woman's ability to bear children as a burdensome chore or punishment inflicted on women by the "patriachial society" and babies, children and fetuses as a life sentence of hell for the crime of feminine sexuality. That sounds anti baby and reproducing plain and simple.

If it weren't a common theme on both sides to be ANTI baby or abortion for everyone else, not jsut themselves then the pretty labels could stick. They're jsut fluff. I'm mature and wise enough to admit that as a person on one of those sides I see that it happens and it isn't right for EITHER side to do it and hide behind the labels.

The middle ground and mature thing would be to not demonize or belitte women who chose to abort OR give birth just because you would or choose not to do so. Respecting or supporting one's choice is not required, simply not trivializing it to support your own is.

Fine. But show my somewhere that is PRO-ABORTION. Other than the VHEM, which I mentioned, where do you find a general position FAVOURING or PROMOTING abortion? Those of us who are childfree will generally choose abortion for ourselves, but in general have no recommendations to make for other people (other than "if you can't feed'em, don't breed'em.") I would be very interested in where you find anyone who is pro-abortion. If you mean "pro the availability of abortion on demand" that is still pro-choice.

Also, you can be as literal as you like, but this is the real world, not Alice in Wonderful, where words only mean precisely what you want them to mean. If we look at standard, politically-charged usage, pro-life means anti-abortion, and that is pretty well it. Otherwise, I could claim to be "pro-life": I am in favour of MY life, which includes having an abortion in order to keep it exactly the way it is. So if we can just use these words to mean whatever we like, great. I am pro-life!




I would be very interested in any examples you have of this. Are you sure you are not confusing "child-free" and "pro-choice"? Because none of the pro-choice statements I have seen support this assertion.

You must be reading the same ones over and over again. Both sides can be utterly ridiculous with their convictions against the other. Seriously.

So you are unable to provide any examples? Or are these the same as the one that you claimed said "I got pregnant just so I could have an abortion" which everyone laughed about?

Pro-abortion means someone who supports or favors LEGALIZED abortion. All pro-choicers are FOR or SUPPORT abortion (which the PRO stands for!) When did pro-abortion mean the same thing as pro-forced abortion?????

If you're pro-guns, does that mean you think every single person should be forced to have a gun? If you are pro-death penalty, does that mean that you believe every single person in jail should be executed? If you're pro-gay marriage, does that mean you think all gays should be forced to marry? If you're pro-women rights, does that mean you think only women should have rights and not men?

Why would pro-abortion mean someone who believes everyone should be forced to abort? Why would it mean that a person would ONLY be for abortion and nothing more? What's with the attempt to change the meaning to make it sound better? No one is wrong when pro-choicers are called pro-abortion, and no one is wrong when pro-lifers are called anti-abortion.

I agree with you, abortion is wrong! I am older, and the older I got the more I was against it. It sickens me to hear people getting abortions!

You probably should stop listening in at the clinic. Earplugs are your friends!

There are examples of this right here on this very site but when someone doesn't bow down and kiss the tush of the personw riting it all while still being pro-choice everyone backs up and pretends they never read anything like it at all.

If someone says abortion is wrong you and many others will squak about how the person wants to see every woman abrefoot and pregnant or suppressed sexually or yada yada yada. Yet when someone says childbirth is horrible, motherhood is bad, you want to punish me with a pregnancy no one can see what they are saying as anything other than " I support woman's rights" which is BS. But I have come to expect that. I've read back how some of you attached Tylanas for an opinion and she's as pro-choice as everybody else. But yeah everyone thought the article about the woman who missed her BC pills (they didnt failed she missed her pills) was happy about geting an abortion because she was and says so in the article wasn't glorifying abortion. SHe even badmouthed condom use, seriously with her boyfriend. Anyone who thought she was joking shoud have read her coments sections, she was being dead serious about that.

Abortion is only wrong to the person who thinks it is, the older I get the more I understand why it exist, simply because I assume more females are educated nowadays compared to some of the stupidty of the 40s. Their ideal life was baking brownies and giving blowjobs while popping kids out like football arenas smart eh....

I think ill take my birth control pill and should I get pregnant I ll hop on a table for the next appointment..........

Then again I think pro-life is wrong but thats my opinion dont you think?

[/quote "diamondz"] I assume more females are educated nowadays compared to some of the stupidty of the 40s. Their ideal life was baking brownies and giving blowjobs while popping kids out like football arenas smart eh....[quote]

Diamondz why the attitude about someone who would happy in a marriage and motherhood? Seriously? Michelle Obama has an IVY LEAGUE education not to be confused with some junior college or online classes BS. She has had a fullfilling career that she gladly gave up. That's not smart? LMAO Because YOU say so? The president of the country answers to her, as per his own admittance that she runs things. Yet because she's ahppy with marriage and childhood she's not as smart as women today who have abortions?

Many many married women with children with or without careers are in their ideal lives and that doesn't have an effect n their intellect, wisdom or sophistication. Just because it isn't good for you doesn't mean it isn't good for everyone else. You can be anti-marriage anti motherhood for you while being pro-choice in marriage and reproduction for everyone else. Respecting another's choice means being able to see what's not good for you could be great for someone else and what's great for you could be not good for someone else.

[quote="Phenicks"][/quote "diamondz"] I assume more females are educated nowadays compared to some of the stupidty of the 40s. Their ideal life was baking brownies and giving blowjobs while popping kids out like football arenas smart eh....

You missed the part where I said the 40s and the difference between a choice we have now in 2009 big space of time for change for some anyway.....if you re-read maybe you could actually read the part where it says FEMALES are more educated NOWADAYS compared to the 40s.....

So a women is happy at home but is her male partner as GENUINELY happy working?? What if he wants to stay home and you work?? Seriously, who wants to work?? Work is a responsibility not something most people want to do and my problem is only with women who feel they are entitled to staying home without having a heartfelt conversation with their boyfriends or husbands/them having a say in it. Double standard again, people with same values where a women would like to stay home and her hubby agrees, then I'm for it.

You love to twist things but here is the thing and this is for any mother out there, tell me you enjoy when your children have a tantrum while you buying groceries, do you really enjoy that?? Or maybe you enjoy it when you don't get a break, you getting frustrated but then again it seems some people here don't get stressed and are perfect ~!

I just wish people would stop saying all of it is good when I know people have both good and bad days, with kids it can't be controlled (in a sense) you never know what will happen but mothering is defiantly not all roses.

If a parent has never had to discipline their children then I must say you have perfect children, maybe they should be admitted to the guiness book of record, for PERFECT KIDS...........

Wow your statement blew me away so you think only smart women have abortions, maybe I should tell you about the diverse environment of women who get abortions, regardless of any background.


Anyway I'm done.

Honestly, I would never argue against the idea that smart women have abortions. And if she isn't, then maybe having an abortion is still the smartest thing she can do!