I can offer a partly relevant question coming from Canada. Here, once the "schizophrenia" diagnosis is in place, one can get a "severe limitation for employment" status from welfare and get enough to live on. This is helpful. There is no hassle. All your medication, and the dentist, are paid for. You're poor, but safe. But then what do you do? You're still a person, right? There are too many hours in the day, and you can only read so many books, watch so many television programs, drink so many cofees... I cannot work full time but I'm not entirely disabled; however, the welfare system does not permit me to work part time. In theory it does, but their computations and the procedures for it are so complicated that I gave up after 3 months - I couldn't sleep because of the stress. Also, there is a stipulation that you can only earn $100 per month before having your benefits reduced. Who's going to hire you for $100 per month? Basically, you'd be working more (and having your benefits reduced) just to feel better that you're doing something. I tried a good number of volunteer places in the area (so that I don't have to pay for transit), but they all refused or were uninterested (and I didn't even mention schizophrenia). So my contribution to your post is, that the gov't helps you, but then has you in its power... You're stuck in its categorization, unable to be yourself, to choose what you want to do (e.g. work part-time).

I don't agree at all that schizophrenics have some sort of 'faulty' ego or something to that effect, theories of this nature are total bull in my opinion, I'm of the opinion that diseases like this have a biological cause in the body. I always say it, but I've read and talked to one person who was diagnosed as schizophrenic and it turned out they merely had a sugar disorder, corrected by dietary changes. I myself was delusional, believed I was in a television show and near hallucinating at points, to only find out a metabolic condition was behind my problem. I look to the faulty way society has suggested we should run our lives, especially eating, as the main cause. As to the other issue, I think it's an extremely difficult problem of how to assimilate schizophrenics into society. The main problem with the whole 'danger' thing is that it's usually, I'd say as high as 95% of the time untrue. Most schizophrenics don't hurt anyone, but the problem is you have no way of knowing for certain whether they will or not, and this uncertainty is at the root of the problem and has been for mental illness in general for centuries.

I agree with the theory, above. Been put like that in other places, too. And here's what the human race had been doing for the other 5000 years, before pfizer pharmaceuticals came along: shamanism. If the kid was having "the dreams", he had to go live with the shaman. Taught him how to live in a hallucinogenic reality for the rest of his life. Became a great asset to the community. I wrote an autobiography, on how I gradually turned sz into shamanism, over 20 years. Here's the key difference: the dreamer must control the dream, not the dream the dreamer.

-onderdonk

The mentally ill could not become shamans. I'm not sure where you got this information, but I've studied folklore for awhile and actually just taught a lecture the other day about shamanism. In fact, mental illness does not really exist at all in tribal communities that still perform these practices.

I get diagnosed, at best, as "schizotypal personality disorder", at worst, as schizophrenic, but that's when I'm "acting out"; But I don't take meds. Tried it for a short time, seroquel, years ago. Instead, I have been studying shamanism for twenty years. I read alot of stuf about shamanism, I have emt several shamans from south america, paid for the 100 dollar an hour sessions, done the rituals, have the drum tape. Wrote an autobiography, on how I gradually learned, got a spirit guide in the lower world, then in the middle world, this one (contraversial, very dangerous), then finally, dramatically, a "father" in the upper world. It's just like sz, that's my own description. The visions and voices under the drum tape are the same things in the sz visions and vvoices from around the world. The one difference: the dreamer must control the dream, not the dream the dreamer. Now you, giving talks on shamanism, you don't see the connection ?!?!?

No, which should say something to you. You think shamanism is paid for? That's ridiculous. True shamans, 1. probably don't speak English at all, 2. live way out in the middle of areas that humans don't dare tread because only tribal life can survive there 3. don't charge money. 100 for an hour of shamanism huh, yeah that sounds real legit. Give me a break.

ok, so am i mistaken, then, these are just sz patients, and not actually shamanism? 100 bucks wasn't that bad, and I gave it as a gift to other people i knew. I consider myself amateur, so i don't charge anything.
anyway, point is these people who claim shamanism also have the similar motifs in their delusions, as the mythological motifs in the first psychotic break of the individual in psychiatry. always interesting. I don't mean to infuriate you, just discuss, since you are familiar. would you simply call this schizotypal personality disorder then? do i have no right to call it shamanism? there are some similarities. I did get kicked out of the bay area shamanism group, though, for holding demon counsel, so maybe they agree with you, this isn't shamanism, it's sz. What about, though, the tendency to control your own visions, instead of feeling compelled or tormented by them? Is this a variation to sz that is explained somewhere?
I noticed that there is a number qoted. The number is one. they say one percent of humans want to be shamans, want to talk to the spirts, willing to sacrifice and suffer to learn unknowable secrets of the universe. the other 99% think that's crazy. In psychiatry they use the same number: one, to describe the percentage of the population that should be medicated because they talk to spirits. they call this schizophrenia, but only in this culture. the one percent is called shamanism in other cultures. not the "mentally ill behavior", the dreams. not the dreams, the DREAMS!!!
-onderdonk

First off, you don't necessarily learn shamanism. It's not like a shaman just teaches people in the village his skills, only a special person can do that, usually someone who is blood related and thus assumed to have the same ability to connect to the spirit world. They would never just teach it to someone, especially not for a price. That's ridiculous and totally pathetic. Whoever tricked you into pay that, if you actually did (I kind of doubt anything really happened you're probably making it up), was an fool. Shamanism does not involve mythology at all, it's a precusor to it. Shamanism is not controlling visions, you bring them on and interpret them to cause various things to happen. What sort of practices do you do, oh wise shaman? Explain to me your skills. It seems to me this word 'shamanism' is being used in a pseudo-religious, new age connotation, which is totally laughable. Anyone who thinks they can be a shaman but is not part of a tribal society can forget it because they don't even understand in the first place what it entails.

oh yes, they teach "Core Shamanism" in New York City. Michael Harner wrote the book, never met him, I went to Christina Pratt, she charged hundreds of dollars for workshops that ran all weekend. That was "introduction to shamanism", and involved a live drum, while we are taught to leave our bodies and go to a pre determined place in the real world, go down the hole, go to the lower world, and ask to meet the spirit guide. Some see stuf, others don't It's like they know that your mind is ready to have these delusions, and they guide the delusions. We guide the spirits to tell us what WE want to hear about, not what they want to talk about (they want to get us by fear, we have other ideas - knowledge). So that's "core shamanism", then they invite a shaman from south america to do "sessions" for about a hundred bucks an hour. I've always enjoyed these "sessions", kinda like paying to hang out for an hour with a kowledgeable and well controlled interesting schizophrenic patient, who wants to tell you his delusions about how to make yourself healthier, and more magical. Since then, various reading or whatever. You're right, it was hereditary. My father was a roman catholic jesuit priest. Most people aren't interested in becomming magical - me , it's the only thing i'm interested in. I moved to california and there's no body to pay for shamanism anymore, they kicked me out of the "group". So now I'm just a crazy guy, schizotypal personality disorder. Whatever. Nobody can catch me, I am far outside the scope of human law, or the laws of physics.

-onderdonk

Those aren't practices of shamanism, so I don't even need to comment on them. Shamans don't do group sessions for 'spirit guides', that's ridiculous. The essence of shamanism is alleviating fear of the unknown (natural forces, lack of rain, etc.) and especially healing using herbs, usually in the form of rituals. From South America huh? Would you happen to know the region? They wouldn't teach a person who was descended from a jesuit priest, not that that would make sense in the first place because they're not 'magical', a word which you keep throwing out there. I really, truly doubt you have had anything to do with the jesuits. Where did they study, who did they learn from? Questions you won't answer. So you were assigned basically as a shaman and then kicked out of the group? How can you claim to be one if you've been rejected by this mysterious, nonexistent group that taught you in the first place?

like it's my job to fool you into thinking false things about my history, you're so incredulous. I'm just being honest, though just giving little bits of quite a big complex story - my autobiography, recently done.

I took shamanism class - "core shamanism", as they explain it, from christina pratt, http://www.shamansense.org/, she lives in seattle, comes to nyc four times a year. I was sent to her 'cause I had met some students of hers, they heard i had demons inside me, they "journeyed" next to me in an attic with a drum tape, and we all saw all kinds of monsters in the vision. they were scared, said i needed a pro, and sent me to christina.

Yes, christina took a few hundred bucks. I found it well worth it. kind of different from what you're talking about, yes, more "nw age" ish. A class would be a couple hundred dollars, a two day workshop in manhattan, a half dozen people in her apartment, and a very enjoyable experience.
Not that I am some kind of "member" of anything, but that after that initiation, after cultivating a relationship with a spirit guide, first in the lower world, for years, now in the upper world as well, after that, I decided I could say "I am a shaman", and it dexcribes me better than most other alternatives. freaks people out too, sometimes. but you, you have the most indredulous reaction to me I ever have seen. this is california, so out here, people let anything fly. i have actually in three years met two other people who said they are shamans too, and they are just other computer people like me. not pro, by any means. I do show other people though. friends. the first couple of people was a mistake, took a girl afraid of death to the land of the dead, she went crazy and was haunted for ever! oops! but a friend recently, I showed him his mom, who had died a few years ago. It went well, first time it wasn't unethical.
My father was a roman catholic jesuit priest. Chrisina knew that, and said not to tell him about this stuff. I said he's dead already.
My father was a priest in 1965. i have the roman breviary, from 1965, and for a year did the daily prayers and stuff. Went to catholic grammar school and high school. Father was a priest, left the chuirch when he got my mom pregnant with me. I have the whole auto bio! Three more kids after me. We're all crazy, but I do it the best.
The south american shaman, yeah, they call him dolphin shaman. he works for the zoo in washington dc, but he came from peru. even though i'm in california now, i still get newswletters from ny about the dolphin shaman coming in for his 100 an hour visits. I can forward that, next time i see it. It's hundreds of people in nyc.
but out in the bay area california, there was a group, i went twice - summer solstice we all flew into the sun - it was cold and dark, and we held the stillness - and i went to another one, where they took 200 dollars and had everyone go to the upper world on the second day! it scared alot of people, christina said that comes after years of practice. So we all went, I went inot shcok, but later I talked about the demon world, talked about dreams, apparently scared some of the beginner students (just the stuff i post here - that i rule all demons and totally control the demon world, and therefor, all humans) and i was asked never to return, or she would call the police, that I am actually sick, or disturbed, and that I should get help. They ust don't understand. I am just playful.

But if this all isn't shamanism, is it really sz? alot of similarity, but i have control, that most don't. at 12 years old in the psychiatric hospital, for 2 months after burning down my moms house, i went out with another kid on the ward an an attendant. We were playing attacking our attendant in the elevator. he yelled, "STOP IT". I stopped, of course. the other kid couldn't stop, and had to go in the quiet room. the attendant told me later i was different, because i can just stop. most can't ; this "difference", i had labeled shamanism.

But you disagree ?!!?!?!
onderdonk

Wow, a zoo keeper as a shaman? Give me a break. Your thoughts are always so muddled, confused and without order that I hardly bother to read most of it. You have still not stated anything, nor answered any of my questions, you seem to enjoy posting material from sites as though they were your own ideas, which is then laced with grandiose, ridiculous comments. I have no need to comment any more on your thoughts because they mean nothing. You believe what you want, I'm simply going to stay back from now on and make sure you don't post anything too idiotic like you did that one time. First you were into that site, then you believed in time, now you don't after I talked about it, then you became a shaman, now you teach, before that you were working in an office. What is it? Nothing, you merely piece everything together and most people believe you, probably because you write so dang much they don't bother to read it all and see how lame it is. Go type about whatever you want, but keep it according to site policy. Put your spacesuit back on and fix your brain hemispheres when you get the chance.

and day's over, out here in california, so I'm gonna leave you alone now. But I did find the link to an article by Christina Pratt, explaining her concept of shamanism in 21st century america, an expanded version of your concept of shamanism. And goes for you too, believe whateverYOU want. I think people get the impression that their soul includes other people around them (original idea, not from a website) and I think that ust be why people object to me, as you exemplify right now. I am harmless, but extremely weird. A roomate last year yelled at me. He was getting ready in the morning, and talking about reality. All I talk is UNREALITY. the guy yelled 'charlie, it takes way too much mental energy to think about that kind of stuff right now, i'm not gonna listen!". OK, sorry to bother you, but I don't feel unethical, I'm an UNREALITY check, you get all into your "reality" and then I show all my unreality, and I guess it's disconcerting, or even threatening. Sorry, but I have the right to think these days, even post, apparently, though you could stop that easy enough, the other site almost everything i post is deleted, no explanation, i guess i am considered 'non-compliant' cause i won't take the recommended SSRI meds, so people don't like te nut in their soul. Wish i wasn't here. anyway, if you care to actually read up on this, and it isn't me, it's my teacher, who took hundreds of bucks, i'm just saying, she explains in this essay, heres the link, and bye for the evening....

http://edgelife.net/article.php?id=0271

onderdonk

You're probably a fun guy in person and I'm sure we'd have plenty of fun just sitting and chatting, but you're fooking annoying on the internet! I'm going to get some stuff done now, take it easy man and keep your posting kind!

is that what i posted that's so bad? the thing about my space suit on backwards? too crazy for the sz people ?!?!?!

and this one:

stapled to a horn: the buzz of a scratch

(as in my sz is a scratch on the "horn" of my humanity, and this scratch creates this buzzing sound, makes me unique, and hey, i have quite the "buzz" from my sz)

and i kind of believe in time, yes, i go back and forth on that, i am the enemy of time, that's a constant.

and i am a consultant, this week, mon through saturday, i teach in sacramento, top rated citrix instructor in the world (they love the hypo manic sz - like presentation - they are fascinated. the sales guys say "charlie is totally insane, but he KNOW CIRIX"- yeah , whatever, I was the number one Novell instructor in the northeast in 1999.

Just a consultant though. next week, in an office. Monday for one hour, meet and greet. tuesday and wednesday, all day on the servers in the data center.

so which is it? guess it's all of the above.

The guys who work on the network i am going to on monday only know my non-professional personality, (as do you, all these posts, but you've never met me in my camoflage!)

And this guy said "i better warn them about who's coming in next monday" but i said no, don't worry, there are two of me, I will go in and play the other role, act like sane computer guy, bvery quiet, very professional. I said the only weird thing about me is that I call BOTH p[ersonalities "charlie messemer", when I really should distinguish, as in "Jesus" and "satan", or "dr jeckyl" and "mr hide". But everybody, including you, stan, are confused, simply because i stick to the same nomenclature whether hiding or revealing my inner monster, my precious mind world/magnificent mind scape !!!!!

-onderdonkey

Hide is spelled Hyde.

on my way home-
that's "praising with faint damning!!!!"

(if you know what i mean)