Laser Spine Surgery

Hi Rosalynn.
Thank you so much for answering my questions. I am so happy for you to get relief from your pain. I can't even imagine what that would be like, I've been living with this pain for 11 yrs. now and it just keeps getting worst. I was really hoping that Bonati would be my answer just like they were for you.
You and Carrianne are lucky that you both live in Florida and can go home and think things over before you make any decisions about surgery. So far I guess I'm the only one who has been to Bonati and had him be completely wrong with my pain location. I have a lot wrong with my back and I guess it threw him off.
When he explained that it would take six surgerys in one year and another 6 mos. after that before I would get relief I couldn't go through with it.
I realize after seeing many surgeons that my only other option is fusion. I can't bring myself to do that because once its done its all over for me because the prospects aren't to good with fusion either. So I guess I will just keep looking and hoping that there is an answer for me somewhere.
Thanks again and I hope that you stay well.

Jerseyboy

I have 6 buldging disks and one has a tear. I also have arthritis in this area. I was consider The Laser Spine Institute, but after reading some of these posts, I think not! Thanks much. I'd better stick with the home physical therapy equipment I have, exercising, etc. Hopefully this will cure this as many doctors have said it would, but I must do the P.T. for 30 minutes every day.

Rosyln,
I have many of the same symptoms you do. What is lamy/framy discectomy Where is doctor Moffatti located? Thanks.

Hello Kathy,

Welcome to this forum, and especially to this thread and the great spineys who post and try and help each other.

Sorry to read about your back issues.

I am not a doctor, however, permit me to respond to "physical therapy". Physical therapy will not cure your difficulties. However, physical therapy if administered by a qualified therapist can help to strengthen the muscles and keep the back from getting "stiff".

Kathy, I become concerned when people do physical execises at home when there are back problems. My concern is that you could potentially do more damage to your back by unknowingly doing the "wrong" exercises.

Please do seek the advice of a neurologist/spinal surgeon if you have not done so.

RichT

Kathy,

You did not identify the area of the spine where you have buldging discs.

There are many people who have spinal specialists who handle "buldging discs" through meds and physical therapy. It all depends on where that buldge is located. Surgery is not always required.
A herniated disc may require attention. If you are in constant pain, a doctor should also direct you to a Pain Management Clinic to investigate if your pain can be handled by steroid injections. Don't jump to the conclusion you need surgery until you follow all of the options that are available to you

Everyone is not lucky enough to have insurance that covers PT under PT therapists directions forever but once they learn the stretching exercises that are needed, they may be permitted by their doctor to do them at home. Nothing should be done on your own without prior professional instruction.

The point you must be aware about is this. Make sure you are under a "spinal specialist" whether he be an orthopedic doctor or a neurologist doctor. A "spinal specialists" does no other type work but spines.

Marie B.

I've had 2 epidural injections which weren't great because I discovered that I am allergic to the preservatives in cortisone. I'm trying to hold off major surgery such as laser as long as possible because I'm still young but have been wearing a lumbar back support which my orthopedic surgeon recommended. It's the thermomedic back support & works by emitting heat into your spine so improves flexibility & reduces pain & stiffness. I can now take gentle exercise & phsio which is starting to strengthen my back muscles which in turn is helping improve my posture. I feel much better because I'm not just lying around in bed now like I was.

Hello Happyfingers,

I was glad to read that you are doing better now. That is much encouraging.

Happyfingers - now that makes me think you are a pianist. Am I close?

Take care.

RichT

It's a little late tonite; but I wanted to take a moment to say Hi !! If you recall I had surgery at LSI in August (L-3/L-4), and I'm still surviving, but still have a few issues (L4/L5 & L5/S1). I'll get back in here in a day or two, and give you the scoop on my back. In the mean time I wish you all well, and I'm Glad I found you again !!
By-The-Way: Is Carrianne skating again ??

Mike B. (Beetle)

GOOD MORNING Mike!!

Nice to see you found us again.

We look forward to the "scoop" as you say. Most interested how your surgery at LSI went and your recovery. What are your plans for those other "few issues"?

WOW, a lot of catching up to do.

Have an enjoyable weekend.

RichT

thank you for you reply about the sitting mri. we are in missouri and we would have to go to chicago for the closest one. but it is somehting for us to consider. i was talking to a natural health person today, and they told me that a product called GOJI100 juice would help to remove the inflammation in my husband back and would help rid his body of free radicals ( hope i got that right ). Would you have any info of this product? she told me that to much sugar attacks our muscle and tissue. There was something else on my husbands ct scan that i am not sure of. what does diffuse atherosclerotic calcifications of the abdominal aorta out of proportion to the patients age mean? could this actually have something to do with his back pain? i wish we could come and see you for an evaluation, but my insurance wouldn't cover, because you are in indiana. i really appreciate your opinion and time. thank you!!!!!!!! mary

Mary, neutraceutical manufacturers have no interest in making a product that is proven to work, they only want your money. They have zero scientific studies proving their product does what they claim it does (removing inflammation in humans) and make several step inferences based on bacteria or mouse studies. Usually these products are not harmful, but because they are unregulated and untested, they are allowed by US law to be released on the US population that then may only show complications after complaints made to the FDA years later. Several of these products have been banned by the FDA after causing hundreds of deaths or major organ injury, but only after they have been on the market for years and have accumulated enough death to warrant intervention. New FDA rules will allow the gradual introduction of regulation of the vitamin/nutraceutical products but this is being phased in over years.
My rule is: if it isn't too expensive and if you don't mind being a guinea pig for an untested product, then go for it. I also suggest to patients they do the following to demonstrate its effectiveness: do your own study. Don't change any of your other medications or diet from the usual for 3 straight weeks. On the first week, record everyday the pain level and your functional assessment such as an Oswestry test. Then on week 2 introduce the test substance and record the same values. Then on week 3 discontinue the test product, continuing to record pain scores and function. If the pain scores dramatically decrease from the end of week 1 to the end of week 2, then increase again by the end of week 3, the product is probably working. A dramatic decrease would be at least 3 points on a 1-10 pain scale. There should also be functional improvement during week two.
Calcified aortas are common findings on CT and bear watching by the family doc, but usually are of no specific significance in and of itself.

I hope my post goes through this time. So before making it a long one, I'll introduce my self 1st then see if it works. In Jan 08 I posted on Back Pain and Rich responded and directed me to this thread. The thread is impressive and it took me two month to read (I travel a lot). My name is Mel and I have had back pain for years and I have decided to surgically correct my back. Before sending the post..thanks Rich for responding. I'll post more when I see this one goes through.

Hello Mel,

Your post went through fine.

A word about long posts. EHealth has a "cut off" time of supposedly 2 hours (seems less than that to me sometimes). For a bit of "insurance" may I suggest that you write your post and then BEFORE sending it you save it in MS Word or other program on your computer. Then try sending your post. If it goes through GREAT, if not, then copy what you have saved back into EHealth and try again.

I hope this makes sense.

We look forward to your post and your becoming a part of this spiney family.

RichT

Hello Mary,

I totally agree with Algosdoc!!!!! (EVERY WORD.)

Do your own "experiment" as he directs and see what happens.

Also be aware of the "placebo effect". In other words try not to let your brain "think" the product is helping when it may not be having an effect. Now I hope that makes sense. lol

Do let us know how your "experiment" works out.

RichT

Hey there,
I have been following your posts about spine surgery for a couple months now. Well, there are a few things I have to say but I'm still a bit sedated from my procedure at LSI, so I will try my best. My intention is to explain my personal experience at LSI.
I am a 38 year old male with a bulged s1-l5 disc, experiencing psiatic pain down my leg to my foot. Very miserable. I have been an athlete my entire life and surfed as recently as Nov. 2007. As of Nov. 8, when I hurt myself, again, lifting weights I have been in spinal hell. After as much research as I could put in I settled on LSI as the place to try to get my life back. (this site helped me in that decision) It has been a total of 4 years of fighting the good fight with every non surgical treatment I could get prescribed, or not prescribed, and nothing worked great. Ok. So here is my story.
I arrived at LSI Monday the 24th at 8 am. Because I am young and in good health I received my first two visits in the first day. At the end of what was to be the second day I was asked for my 30k check. It may have been different if I wasn't self pay, I don't know. Anyways; I was then told I was not going to receive a laser discectomy but instead a PDD which was 14k less expensive and LSI needed to know who to cut the refund check to. That made me very happy. I believe if it was only about the money I wouldn't have had a change in my procedure. On the 25th I had my procedure, a PDD at s1-l5 and a facet joint nerve "burn off" by Dr. Morris. I walked right out. Today, 26th, I went for physical therapy with Dr. Kellogg it went smooth and he is a very knowledgeable man who had 3 laser disc procedures by Bonati in 1993. Now I am back on the hotel couch off the meds they gave me for pain and slowly losing the procedural pain. I think.
Here is what I think. If the PDD does what they say it will, and I think it will, this will have been one of the best decisions of my life. As soon as I got to the Hyatt in Tampa I started asking every person I could what they new about LSI. I never heard a bad thing about them. When I got to LSI I asked every single person I saw what their experience was and what had happened in their life. Every person! Probably 80 people in 2 days. Everyone had nothing bad to say and everything good. The entire place was a cauldron of positive vibes. It was quite amazing. I was treated perfect and I never waited more than 30 minutes for anything or anyone. My goal was to let the good people of this posting, and anyone researching spinal surgery options, about how wonderful I think LSI is and that I believe there is magic happening there. I also am very interested in anyone who can tell me their experience or knowledge about the PDD procedure. I was well studied about discectomy when I walked in to LSI and in a matter of minutes I was shifted into a PDD procedure change.
One more thing: I asked every person if their local Dr. or surgeon warned them against Laser Spine Institute or any other laser spine surgeons, and as I suspected every single person I asked said they were told to NEVER go there and they had every negative statement you could think of. Just as my dad's surgeon told him last week and I almost pulled out.
Let me know what you think, Matt

Matt:

I received a Percutaneous Arthoroscopic Discectomy (L3-L4 bulging) in August at LSI and had good results. My Surgery was performed by Dr. Weiss, with a consult by Dr. Wolff. My initial exam/eval was completed by Dr. Rothman who seems to no longer be there. My initial payment was $5000.00 less than yours, (although they have 100% of any insurance payments from my BC/BS etc.); I was scheduled on a very short term basis (I guess I replaced someone who canceled out).

On the day of my surgery I was taken wonderful care of by the OR staff, the Nurse Anestitist, and the Anesthesiologist Dr Hamburg. The surgery took just about 75 minutes, and then they moved me to the recovery area to sober up. Around an hour later I walked out of there without the usual pain in my leg/groin/shin.

I walked around our Hotel complex, and the following day visited SeaWorld with my 9 year old son and my wife. I needed to rest frequently - but I was considerably better. I also visited Dr Kellogg, and learned several things from him that have helped me quite a bit.

After returning home to New Jersey I completed 8 weeks of physical therapy to help me stand and walk straight; and gradually succeeded.

Now for the down side; after about 3 months of being TOTALLY PAIN FREE, I had the misfortune of getting out of the recliner / couch incorrectly and pulled something. I could not stand or walk without alot of help for a week, and it's now been over 8 weeks - I'm getting a little better every day, but it's still there. The Pain seems to be coming from L4-L5 according to my pain specialist. The next step is steroid injections in a couple weeks.

I have not been in touch with LSI for quite a while; a few weeks post surgery I needed a renewal script for my PT and they sent it right away, but they have not followed up with me at all, so much for the phone calls every few weeks to check on me... (I've heard this from others, too).

Another down-side is if I need an additional surgery it will be another cash payment of $14,000 or $15,000 minimum - which will take at least three magic tricks and a miracle to come up with...

Well, theres my tale-of-woe.. I sincerely hope that you're final result will turn out far better than mine, and on the plus side - my son is still talking about Sea World, and yep I would probably do it all over again tomorrow..

Best Regards,

Mike B (Beetle)



PS: For my friend RichT, theres my progress report!! Hope all is GREAT with you!!

My Dx: L3/L4 HNP-Bulging (Repaired LSI) * L4/L5 HNP-Bulging w/ Stenosis & DDD * L5/S1 Advanced DDD (Black Disk)

Thank you for your response,
I Don't know if a Percutaneous Arthoroscopic Discectomy is the same as my plasma disc decompression or maybe percutaneous disc decompression. In light of that i will explain what they did. At s1-l5 LSI put a 17 gauge catheter in my disc and then used a radio frequency or heat, not sure which, and vaporized about 1 to 1.5 ccs of disc plasma, or gelatinous fluid, inside the disc. In theory this will shrink the disc size and pull it off the nerve it is impinging. I hope so. At LSI they told me they have seen MRI reports post op that showed the disc snugly fit inside the vertebral column. Please don't hold me completely accountable to my medical terminology. I just want my life back. Run, surf, drive, lift, etc...I am very sorry for your reoccurence or new pain. I hope truly that you will get relief. I spoke to several people that had been or new people who were getting reseen for free work there. You should call them. Sam helped me quite a bit. Remember I am drunk on the cool aid of LSI right now and may not feel so pro LSI in a few months but I truly believe in their willingness to do the right thing. Thank you so much for your insight and i hope to learn more. Please answer.
Thank you, Matt

Plasma disc decompression aka coblation nucleoplasty is not an arthroscopic method. No direct visualization of the disc is performed, and certainly no laser is used, calling into question why LSI would use a non-laser technique contrary to the advertising inherent in their namesake. The procedure usually takes me about 10 minutes maximum, and RF energy at 100kHz is used with 5-10 passes being made with the spine wand that vaporizes the disc tissue into a gas. The wand is called a Perc DLE or DLG depending on the model, and costs the center approximately $1800. The OR equipment and staffing cost is minimal. Typically the entire procedure should cost no more than around $5000 maximum total price for a 10 minute procedure.

Thank you for your response,
Is the PDD going to work? Have you had a lot of positive results with this procedure? How many ccs came out of me? Tell me more.
I think they used a laser on my 2 facet nerves that they zapped or burned off. I don't know. I do know I would have given anyone in the world all the riches I have, up to my first born to be a normal, pain free, person...I am sure you hear that all the time...This is the last day I will have to respond, or read, for about 2 weeks so let me know whatever you can, or have time for. As a matter of fact come get all my kids now their school tuition is due. Tks, Matt