Laser Spine Surgery

Hello everyone. This post is very long. I'm sorry, but I want to give out as much info as I can. Maybe someone will cut it off and it won't go through.
I'm back from Bonati. Unfortunately, things didn't work out for me. As I said before I went, I wish that I could have gone for the tests and the consult with Bonati and come home and think about it.
I had my two days of tests, MRI's, x-rays and nerve conductions. Then I had my visit with Dr. Bonati. Carrianne, Ken remembered you and told me and my wife what a nice person you were. I told him, I knew that without meeting you.
Okay, here it goes. Everyone there is very nice. They all told me that when Dr. Bonati comes in to the room, do not say anything about your pain. Let him do the talking and tell you where your pain is. He came in and introduced himself and took out his marker and started going over the x-rays and MRI's. Since my spine is shaped like the letter 'C' with one of the discs sticking out quite far, he started there, marking and saying how severe everything was.
The films that they take are excellent, by the way. He showed how every nerve was being compressed. He now put his back to me and put his hands across his lower back and said, "Here is where your pain is." I said, "No, it isn't," and he just continued putting up MRI films on the screen, saying and showing us how bad everything was.
Then he took his hand and ran it down the inside of my left leg and said, "Your pain continues down here." I said, "No, it doesn't." He continued marking the film, saying, "L1/L2, not too bad. L2/L3 severe both sides. L3/L4 severe both sides. L4/L5 severe both sides, and L5/S1 not quite as bad."
I asked if I could now say something and told him my pain was in my left hip and leg (on the outside) down to my ankle.
He did agree that L4/L5 was creating a lot of the pain.
He said he was going to start with L2/L3, L3/L4 and then L4/L5. I asked if he could do L4/L5 first, to get rid of most of the pain and he said no. The reason was because of the way that I would be bleeding, he had to start at the top. He also said he would cut the protruding disc off. He told me that the right side would now be getting worse and I would have to have three more surgeries next year. He said that it hurts now, but I don't know it. ???
He said six months after the surgery next year, I would feel great.
I really have nothing bad to say about it. Everyone there was great. I'm sure Carrianne would say the same. They have great equipment and they know how to use it. The only waiting involved was one hour for Dr. Bonati.
Carrianne, you said that you went with your gut when you did this. I did too. I hope this info can be of some help to someone. Any questions, feel free to ask. Again, sorry for the long post.
Jersey Boy

Unfortunately, your experience points out several major issues that people with back pain should be aware of.
1. Diagnosis is NEVER EVER made by any legitimate physician first on the basis of MRI without knowing the history (including pain patterns) and prior to performing a physical exam. This is completely contrary to medical science.
2. MRI is fraught with many false positive findings, so it is extremely important to talk to the physician first about the pain pattern, exacerbating and alleviating factors, muscle weakness or spasms, paresthesias, associated symptoms, medications you are taking, past history of the pain problem including when it began and exactly what treatments had been rendered up to that time.... Physicians use this information and fit the findings of the MRI that explain the patient's pain to that specific patient. I know of no physician that plays games with the patients by trying to "guess" the pain pattern repeatedly based on MRI findings, many of which have physicians chasing ghosts.
3. I know of no physician that would sequentially operate on a spine at different levels until the correct diagnosis is finally achieved. The knife is not a diagnostic tool, but a therapeutic one.
4. Second opinions prior to major spine surgery, especially if sequential disc by disc surgery is planned, should be acquired. The information told to you by the first surgeon should always be relayed to the second surgeon.
Best of luck!!!

Hello Jersey Boy,

Thank you very much for sharing in detail your experiences todate at Bonati. I'm glad you provided the detail that you did.

Most interesting the approach Dr. Bonati takes in looking at the "crystal ball" (MRIs, x-rays and other information obtained during the "tests"), and then telling you where your pain is, etc. I can understand that if he analyzed the info "correctly" then one would be VERY impressed. That approach may also play psycologically well for some. His "analysis" in your case was not correct, and you told him so on several occasions. Concerning to me was that he didn't STOP at the first incorrect pain "analysis" and start asking you questions. He kept right on going with his "routine".

Algosdoc has made a most interesting statement - "MRI is fraught with many false positive findings," EVERY neurologist/spinal surgeon has looked at the MRIs of my back and exclaimed "What have you done to your back?" "There are so many things wrong we don't know where to begin." "You don't have a single location in your back which is normal." Such may in fact be the case with my back. HOWEVER, a year and two epidural injections later my back feels much better than it did one year ago. Did the epidurals "cure" what is wrong with my back? Of course not, but they did eliminate/minimize the inflamation which in part contributed to the pain.

Jersey Boy, you and the response by Algosdoc has provided all of us with valuable "food for thought".

Joe, Carrianne and others have had positive results from their surgeries at Bonati. Jersey Boy, I hope your surgery too will help to reduce the pain that you have. A question if I may - In the planned surgery will Dr. Bonati (or other staff surgeon) perform a "facet thermal ablation" at the L2/L3 and L3/L4 locations?

Algosdoc - From my experiences and those of other spineys, there is a difference of opinion between doctors as to what is wrong and what needs to be done (if anything) to correct a spine problem. That is why one gets a 2nd and a 3rd opinion. With that said - Do you consider that the reason Dr. Bonati gave as to why he needed to perform surgery in the L2/L3 and L3/L4 areas before performing surgery on Jersey Boy at L4/L5 where the pain is most severe to be valid? You have answered this in part in No. 3, however I wonder about the "bleeding" issue.

Jersey Boy, my thoughts and prayers are with you in the days ahead.

Thanks again for your very informative update.

RichT

Algosdoc and everyone who read my post. Please don't get the wrong impression from my post. That's not what I had intended. I could have added two or three more pages about the many things wrong with my back and about Bonati, but the post was too long already.
Carrianne went through the same process as I did, I'm sure. They probably have about 20 pages about my medical history, pain, treatments and medication. They also ask you to bring past MRI reports, so they can compare them.
They want you to send film only when you first contact them, which I like, so they can form their own opinion and not go by someone else's.
LSI just wants the report and they tell you to come on down. They told me after I sent my MRI to set up the surgery dates, so they would be in place after I had my tests. I'm 1200 miles away and I would have had to make two trips. They said it wouldn't be a problem if I didn't go through with the surgery. I guess I'm going to find out because they already called my house before I got home.
I really don't recommend anyone doing this without having the test and consult, then going home to think about it. This was my mistake, and a costly one.
I have a condo that's still rented and I had to pay to change my airline tickets for myself and my wife.
There were a few things that my wife and I did not like, the fact that I happen to need the three surgeries, after Dr. Bonati went over my MRI, the fact that he was wrong about the location of my pain, they had that information from all of my paperwork, the fact that he would not do L4/L5 first, I had to have all or nothing.
His explanation my be 100 percent correct. I am not a doctor. I just found it strange.
He was wrong about the pain location, when he told me I had pain and weakness on my right side, but I didn't notice it because the pain was so bad on the left side. He said that the pain on my right side would continue getting worse after these three surgeries and next year, I would need three more surgeries.
I guess I wouldn't have much pain-free time, as it took 11 years to get to this point and now, I would need surgery in one year.
All of this is just my opinion. I'm sure Dr. Bonati has helped many people. I just couldn't bring myself to talk to the man for 20 minutes, get medical clearance the next day and hop up on the operating table. I have been dealing with this pain for 11 years and it's gotten to the point where I can't stand it anymore. I'm grasping at straws looking for relief, and I thought this would be it.
I have been to five or six surgeons over the years, the last two in Manhattan and Philadelphia were suppose to be the best. But fusion doesn't look too promising either. I'm just going to have to keep looking and hoping to find something.
Good luck to all! Jersey Boy

Hello Jersey Boy,

Thanks for the additonal information and your thoughts.

My mind is a bit puzzled - Now knowing that Bonati HAD all your medical history, etc., why the "Now I'm going to tell you where your pain is"? I just don't follow. I could understand Bonati explaning to you what in his mind is wrong with your back from reviewing all the information. And that the L2/L3 and L3/L4 need attention though you do not sense pain where he would expect there to be pain at this time. Again, it is that "I'm going to tell you where your pain is" that doesn't add up to me.

Carrianne, did you experience the same thing as Jersey Boy has? Of Bonati telling you where your pain was.

As a side note - What I have always found intriguing is that my physical therapist could/can look at my back, shoulder, or whatever area I had pain, and say "Does it hurt here?" as she would touch the spot. And that is without seeing an MRI or anything. JB and others - have you had similar experiences with your PT?

I do commend Bonati in looking at your MRIs and forming his own opinion without being influenced by the MRI report. To me any doctor worth his/her "salt" would do the same. A "picture" IS worth a thousand words.

JB, one moe thing if I may - "I really don't recommend anyone doing this without having the test and consult, then going home to think about it. This was my mistake, and a costly one." Sorry but for some reason my mind needs a bit more of an explanation as to what you meant by your statement. Could you please clarify? Thanks

RichT

Jersey boy,

When you stated that your spine is "shaped like the letter C, are you looking at your back and seeing the spine with the top of the C bent to the right and the curvature side of the C to the left with the bottom part of the C to the right.
Or are you saying your spine is shaped like the Letter C, where you are bent forward and unable to stand up straight I'm trying to visualize your spine from your description

Have you always had some curvature to your spine since your youth and it has gotten worse with the passing years? Since I don't know your age, did the curvature (whichever direction the C is) begin as an aging adult?
I don't mean to be nosey, but I think this is the first post that you actually have given this description of your spine.

Your comment on the C shape reminded me that my surgeon had just completed a 9 hour operation on an older lady who had been bent forward for many years the day before my surgery. She could not look another person eye to eye because of how bent she had become. Although my surgeon did not talk to me about this patient, the Ortho Doctor studying with him, upon coming to my hospital room and knowing that I am an "Old Nurse". was telling me about how the day after that 9 hour operation, my surgeon went to her room, got her out of bed and had her stand before him. The Ortho doc. said the lady started crying not because of pain, but because she said, "This is the first time I have been able to stand straight and look a person in the eye in years."
From the Ortho's description, there was not a dry eye in the room because of the achievement of getting the woman to now stand and be free of pain. Sorry, I have no follow up story for you because I would never have asked my surgeon to talk to me about another patient of his.

I believe you have made the right decision with your return from Florida.
From your spine description, I would have said your spinal condition would never have been properly addressed at the laser centers. From the surgical procedures listed on their sites, I would say they do not do complicated spinal surgery and to straighten a spine such as you describe, I can't imagine you ever being cured without some type of Fusion.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and recognize Fusion might be the only way you become free of pain.
I am sorry you had to spend so much money to have learned that laser is not for you.

Now, having said that, allow me also to say....every hospital claims to be The Best.; every doctor they have they will also claim to be the best. They never tell you about "problems". No place will ever publicize problems.
I was told that Cleveland Clinic, ranks very high of all hospitals in the nation. They are specialists in so many areas of health that when you go to the Main Campus, you would believe you were in a city all in itself. And they are still growing. You can see hospitals ranking in U.S. News and World Report Magazine, July 23-30 issue. My surgeon was an Orthopaedic Surgeon who does only spine surgery. That's what is meant by spine specialist. Although they train in Orthopaedics they specialize in spine problems to the exclusion of all other orthopaedic problems. Other doctors not only from the US, but from other countries come to study under my surgeon as well as under the neuro surgeons at the Clinic. I made sure that no one would be touching my spine but my surgeon.

You did say you had gone to a NY spine surgeon. Was that the NY Presbyterian University Hospital? I have heard they are very good there.

And don't think that you are the first person who has been unhappy with the diagnostic situation at the laser centers. There have been others.
Take care and don't give up looking for the best surgeon for you.
If you want to look into others surgeons, I would be happy to provide you information on my surgeon if your insurance would cover someone in this direction.

God Bless
Marie B.

Hello Everyone,

MJ would like to say "hello" to each and everyone of you.

MJ told me that she is doing much better.

Circumstances are such that she feels it best not to elaborate because of an unrelated issue.

Have a WONDERFUL Day!!!

RichT

Hello Rich T. I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. I don't know if Carrianne had the same experience as me at Bonati. All the people that work for Bonati think very highly of him, as they should. He signs their checks. I think what they are trying to do when they say, "Let him do all the talking and show you were your pain is", is to show you what a great doctor he is. Unfortunately, in my case, it didn't work.
If he wanted to, he could have very easily read all my paperwork and charts and walked in and pointed to exactly where my pain was.
I'm glad he did it his way. I guess it works for him most of the time. I'm sure that before he does a surgery, he goes over all previous reports, films and necessary paperwork. I HOPE.
I'm sure he was not happy about being wrong with my pain location, but I know exactly where my pain is.
To answer your next question about it being a costly mistake, what I was trying to say was I wouldn't recommend anyone coming down here, taking two days of tests, talking to Dr. Bonati for 20 minutes and having surgery.
I'd like to make it clear again, that I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression of Dr. Bonati or his practices. It's just that I have a great deal wrong with my back and I was foolish to think that it could be taken care of this easily.
Carrianne and others who live in Florida are very lucky. They could come here and have their testing done and have their consultation and give it a lot of thought. I live 1200 miles away and I didn't want to make two trips.
So, now I have a condo rented and I had to pay to change my plane tickets.
Rich, I really had to convince myself to do this. I was desperate. When I first read about LSI in 2005, I just laughed it off, along with all of the miracle machines and everything else. But as you know, as the pain keeps getting worse, something has to be done.
If it was a simple matter of just doing L4/L5, I would have been on the table in a heartbeat. But after hearing the full story, I couldn't go through with it.
Carrianne, I'm so glad things weren't a lot worse with your Duraleak. Ken told me that they get one per 100 surgeries. But this can happen with open back surgery also. I hope you are well and thank you for all of your help.
Good luck to all!
Jersey Boy

Jerseyboy,

Well, first I'll say that I (and the others I'm sure) were thinking about you last week and anxiously awaiting to hear from you.

I am sorry that you had to go all the way there (not quite a vacation, eh?) to realize it didn't feel right. I commend you for listening to your gut feeling. There's definitely a reason it's there!

I'm so glad you met Ken. I think he's wonderful! He really cares and has spent a lot of time with me, both in the clinic and on the phone with all my post op questions.

I went through the same procedure as you, but Dr. Bonati was "right on" when he showed me where he thought my pain was. I'm sorry for your less than satisfactory experience, but glad you recognized it and didn't jump into a surgery that wasn't necessarily right (for you).

One thing that jumped out at me in your post was that he didn't want to work on L5/S1 first because for me he did L5/S1 first, then L4/L5. I don't want to think too much on it because I know every situation is different.

God bless you and may a clear path open for you,
Carrianne

I'm so sorry that things didn't work out for you at Bonati, but following your gut, it the correct thing to do when it comes to surgery no matter where you are going and whom you are seeing.

You're experience in Bonati set of red flags for you, enough of them to make you question what to do and whether to consent to the surgery and you made the correct choice in not going through with it.
Red flags flying in your face, no matter where you are, are telling you to leave, run the other way and get prospective on what has been said and what to do.

First let me say that when Marie mentioned there where others that have been unhappy with their diagnostic situations, she was no doubt speaking about me as one of them.
I sent my info to both Bonati and LSI. Both came back with the infamous "you are a candidate, come on down" response, but I had many, many questions for them before I traveled the distance from new england to Florida.
The quick results of my questions where that all my dx info based on what i sent them was all on the wrong levels of my spine. I never determined if my records where mixed up with another patient, but the fact that they both claimed thoracic a C spine surgeries needed and my problems where lumbar, dtermined that I would go to neither laser facility for anything.

That being said, I am deeply disturbed by the actions of Dr. Bonati and as Rich put it using his "Crystal ball" and using what appears to have been games to diagnose you.

It would appear that your prior MRIs, xrays, and any other information that you had from other doctors was a waste of your time to bring with you or send to them.
Your information that you told them about where your pain was, how it felt etc. just fell on deaf ears, as they where not interested in what you had to say.

Telling you to say nothing to Dr. Bonati about your pain, let him tell you where your pain is, well, not to be nasty or insulting to him, but I don't think he is God, and he sure isn't you, therefore, he should be listening to you about where your pain was and is located, not playing games to see if he got lucky and told you where your pain was.

I can understand taking new MRI pics, as things can change very quickly with whats going on with the spine, but those MRI pics need to be compared to previous ones to be of any value. An they sure aren't the only thing used for DX. They are just a minimal tool, used within the DX of a patient.

I have worked in and around medicine my entire adult life and there are only very few instances where and Xray, MRI or a CT would be used as the only tool in a diagnosis for a patient.
some of which would be broken bones, tumors, trying to determine if a mass in an area of the body is a cyst vs a solid tumor.
To use any one of these as a total diagnosis of spine problems is plain and simple nuts at the least, dangerous at most.

It is a known fact that in any given number of people, an MRI on their spine will show degenerative changes through the spine and appear to be problems of various degrees.
The older people get, the more degenerative changes appear and the appearance is suggestive of spinal problems for the person.
On the other hand, half of those MRI done on people may show these, supposed problems, but the person is symptom free and going about their life without any problems.

On the other hand, the other half of those people do have spinal problems. Those are the people that need treatment for the issues that are showing in their MRI, but only at the area that is symptomatic, not the entire area that may or may not appear to be a problem.

A doctor that uses just the MRI pictures to diagnose a patients spinal problems is not doing justice to the patient or using those MRI pictures correctly.
What happened to the a physical exam to see where the patients pain actually is? what happened to talking with the patient and getting the details?
That is the proper way to diagnose and then treat the patient.

And yes, Jerseyboy, I have had spinal surgery. I saw my spinal surgeon the first time and all I had then was lumbar xrays done by my PCP when I first went.
He didn't look at them until after he had examined me, heard the details of the pain, when it started, how it progressed and what it was then.
Then he looked at the xrays, could see enough to give a tentative DX, based on my symptoms and what appeared in the xrays. I had an MRI done 2 days later to confirm the DX and determine if there was anything further that could be causing the pain.
His original DX was correct. I attempted the conservative route, with ESI etc. with no help and a few months later went the surgical route.
My doc required me to have a second opinion before he would operate, and I got several.
None of the other opinion docs did I want to use, but I will say that they all examined me first, before looking at any MRI pics and made their determination and DX that way.
I returned to my original doc for surgery and it was a success.

The picture that I am seeing from your experience Jerseyboy, and others that have gone to either Bonati or LSI, is that everything is done in a routine pattern, the same for everyone. The push for immediate surgery following tests and pre-op is a pressure tactic used to get the facilities their money, but they do it under the guise of saving you the money and a second trip for surgery.
It sounds good on the surface, and they are dealing with patients that are in terrible pain and all they want is some relief. You where in those shoes, I have been in that pain, we all have been.
They are offering a sales pitch to those in pain and it sounds so good that you aren't able to think straight and end up just saying yes to the whole thing.

It also sounds like, from seeing and reading their websites, that they do the same surgeries on everyone, implying that they can do it all for everyone and save you from fusion and the like.

That may very well work on the simple cases, but when someone comes in with a more complicated situation, as you did, you throw the whole pattern off on them and they really don't know what to do. That is what appears to be the case with what happened to you, and they came up with some pattern of surgery to hopefully fix you up at some point in the next year.
That may be why Dr. Bonati couldn't figure out where your pain was and ignored what you said.
Telling you where your pain is and you can't feel it? No it doesn't make sense to me either.

I also don't understand the issues of bleeding either. It was my understanding that microscopic surgery, with endoscopic tubes used, caused very little bleeding and it doesn't make sense to me that you would have bleeding that required starting at the top and working down because of it.
I find no logic to that at all.

My other concern would be this. Though you didnt' specifically say what surgeries, Dr Bonati was going to do, I would be concerned with several levels of surgical area done and continued removal of vertebrae pieces, i.e. lamintomies, lamenectomies and the like. Removing too much going down the spine leaves the very strong potential for spinal collapse that would then require emergency fusion along a large portion of the spine.
I have seen that happen as a result this being done at both Bonati and LSI. It makes for very difficult surgery to correct what they did.
As a matter of fact my "roommate" while I was in the hospital for the day post op, was a fusion patient that my doctor performed the fusion on. She had been to bonati 6 months earlier and had several laminotomy and lamonectomy, foramintomy on several lumbar vertebrae.
6 months later her spine collapsed and she required the fusion to stabalize her spine.
Her situation was similar to yours, with Dr. Bonati, but she chose to spend the money and go ahead with the surgery. She never went back for the second round, she needed the fusion first.

I agree with you so much, Jerseyboy, that one needs to take time to think about the surgery, any surgery, before going ahead with it. Get away from the entire set up and think. It's a very costly agreement, usually not paid for by insurance or if they do, very little is covered in most cases.
It disturbs me that they attempt to push the entire process be done in the few days there.

All in all, I really do believe that you made the right decision to not have the surgery. It's just unfortunate that it has cost you so much money.

Don't be hard on yourself about it though. You are in pain and you where hoping to find some relief. We have all done that and been in those shoes.
We all have hoped that there was some kind of quick fix or the like that will solve our spine problems and relieve the pain for us.
In some cases, Bonati and LSI, may be the quick answer we are looking for, but I would venture to guess that they are not for most cases. Most of us have more than one issue going on and it appears that the laser facilities are not prepared to deal with anything more than the very simple of spine issues.

I hope that you are able to find some pain relief and doctors that can help you to achieve that.

Fran

Hello Fran.
Thanks for the reply and your input. Its nice to talk to someone who feels the same way about LSI & Bonati. They really look good at first glance, but when you get into it it's the same old if it sounds to good to be true watch out. When I read the good results Carrianne, Joebob and Innovator's son had with Bonati it gave me some hope. However as we all know all cases are different. Even after reading all that I could about laser surgery and talking to people from the referral lists who have been there, I still had my doubts, so did my wife.
When we got there we both felt a little better. There was no waiting involved except 1 hr. to see Dr. Bonati himself I thought that it would be much worst after all that I read and heard. They have excellent equipment and knowledgeable people to use it. The technicians told me Bonati has to have the best when it comes to xray and mri film they had to due one of my xrays over because they didn't think it was good enough for him.
The only one I actually had a problem with was Bonati himself. Beside the fact that he had my pain location wrong and didn't ask me anything about my pain, when I asked him exactly what procedures he was going to due, he said he was going to (clean it out). He said you could call it sort of a foraminotomy. SORT OF #$%#. He said this was becoming the (new wave surgery). I think if it hasn't caught on in 25yrs. since he started it we have a problem. The nurse practitioner ( Ken) was great, he's the same one Carrianne had. He is the one that takes all of your information and asks all of the questions. He did say during the process that with my knowledge about it, he could sit on the table and let me tell him about it. I guess that they really try to make you comfortable.
I would assume Bonati gets all of the information from him before surgery. I certainly hope so, because Bonati dosen't get it from the patient.
Fran I was desperate and in a lot of pain, I tried but I couldn't go through with it. Enough about me I would like to ask you a few questions if I may.
What kind of procedures did you have? How long ago? How due feel now and how long have you been dealing with your pain?

Thank you Jerseyboy

Hello Everyone,

I'm blown away by how this thread has progressed. There now have been 931 posts and 34174 "views". Truly AWESOME. We have a most precious and special bond.

I will try to step back out of the forest to better see the trees. I hope you will be able to follow my thoughts. Now where to begin?

Some who have had surgery at the laser spine institutes have had successes from their treatment at these institutes and that is FANTASTIC!! The following is not meant to discredit these successes, but rather to analytically look at the approaches used.

JB - "I think what they are trying to do when they say, "Let him do all the talking and show you were your pain is", is to show you what a great doctor he is. Unfortunately, in my case, it didn't work." - My thought is that the "ploy" is a "marketing game". Thankfully for Carrianne, Bonati was "right on". Bonati most likely has a high enough batting average so that most are greatly impressed. Some others all of a sudden realize they have a back pain where they didn't realize it before, and the very analytical like you JB see through the game.

JB and Fran - Yes, I agree, most in severe pain will try to overlook the "red flags". The staff is SOOOOooo friendly and helpful, how could anyone say a bad word. Perhaps some psychology here. Be very nice to people and they will tend to overlook the individual warning signs (trees) for they only see the warm hopitality (forest). JB and Fran, you both saw the "trees".

JB - "If it was a simple matter of just doing L4/L5, I would have been on the table in a heartbeat. But after hearing the full story, I couldn't go through with it." My question is - DID you hear the actual story, or the one that Bonati wanted you to believe? What did the other spinal surgeons you saw before Bonati have to say as to what you needed or did not need to have done to relieve you of your pain? Oh yes, I know, ask 10 doctors for their diagnoses, and you will get 10 different answers.

AND yes, we do need to remember that traditional surgery is FAR from 100% successful. Not only that, but traditional doctors also "olay games" with patients. Unfortunately greed (money) gets in the way of seeing the actual trees.

Fran and Algosdoc - Fran, as I was reading through your extensive detailed post over and over again the words of Algosdoc were there. The thoughts from both of you fit together like a hand in a glove. It is well worth for all to read both of your posts again. Ffran, thanks for sharing each and every one of your details with us.

Fran - Yes, those in extreme pain will have a most difficult time trying to think clearly. A most difficult time to be able to separate the pain/emotions we have from the analytical/logical thoughts that our brain tells us. JB was able to keep his pain in perspective with what his analytical mind was telling him.

JB - With you Bonati met his match. I dare say 90+% of people only want to get the pain over with and try to ignore the "red flags". You didn't. Each one of us owes you so VERY MUCH. You have caused each of us to step back out of the forest so that we can see the trees regarding the laser spine institutes.

To put things in perspective - So why have I not jumped and had traditional spine surgery within the six month time frame that my traditional spine surgeon said I had? Why didn't I just jump on the cold steel table and let him make a one foot slice in my back? Because of "red flags". Because no other spinal surgeon said I needed the extensive surgery that he had proposed. Things did not add up to me. I am still looking for a spinal surgeon who will listen and "hear" what I have to say AND provide answers to the questions I have.

I could go on and on, but enough at this time.

There is NO magic solutions, no matter the technique or procedure. We are all different. The decision obviously is not an easy one for any of us. I hope and pray that each one of us can make the right decision for ourselves.

Take care.

RichT

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the insight and starting this thread, I have been following everyones stories for many months and have posted a few times. I respect every one of you that has had so much back pain and frustration with what to do and where to go. As many of you have stated your best weapon is knowledge. I am a Bonati patient and have been very pleased with my results, I chose them because they were the right fit for me and my issues. I am so much better since my surgeries last summer it is truly a blessing and I am returning on Monday for another surgery. I had and have a few more issues that I want to get fixed and will only trust Dr. Moffat with my spine. I understand that the laser clinics are not for everyone but can help quite a few people that do not have severe problems. Each and everyone of you is special and has to make the decision that is going to help only you and your spine and you have to truly trust your doctor that is going to cut into you. It is a decision you will have to live with for the rest of your lives. Bonati was my decision and it is the right one for me. I hope you all find the answers you need and keep on researching until you find the right solution for you.


Rosalynn

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the insight and starting this thread, I have been following everyones stories for many months and have posted a few times. I respect every one of you that has had so much back pain and frustration with what to do and where to go. As many of you have stated your best weapon is knowledge. I am a Bonati patient and have been very pleased with my results, I chose them because they were the right fit for me and my issues. I am so much better since my surgeries last summer it is truly a blessing and I am returning on Monday for another surgery. I had and have a few more issues that I want to get fixed and will only trust Dr. Moffat with my spine. I understand that the laser clinics are not for everyone but can help quite a few people that do not have severe problems. Each and everyone of you is special and has to make the decision that is going to help only you and your spine and you have to truly trust your doctor that is going to cut into you. It is a decision you will have to live with for the rest of your lives. Bonati was my decision and it is the right one for me. I hope you all find the answers you need and keep on researching until you find the right solution for you.


Rosalynn

Hello Rosalynn,

I (we) much appreciate your sharing of your experiences at Bonati and your thoughts.

It was wonderful to read that you had successful surgery in the hands of Dr. Moffat and successful recovery. Dr. Moffat was also the surgeon for JoeBob as best I recall, and Joe is coaching hockey this winter which is amazing.

Rosalynn, my thoughts and prayers will be with you on Monday and the days ahead. May the coming surgery be as successful as your first.

You bring up a very good point - "and you have to truly trust your doctor that is going to cut into you." SOOOoooo very true. My problem is I have yet to find that doctor.

Take care.

RichT

From the experience of physicians gained during the 1980s and early 1990s it was shown repeated surgeries cause increasing damage to the spine due to the formation of scar tissue. Surgery to remove scar tissue causes even more scar tissue and can also damage the dura or nerves. It is therefore prudent to be cautious, if not suspicious, about surgeons that continue to offer serial repeated surgeries on the spine. If a person achieves 50% or 75% improvement with a single surgery, then repeated "touch-up" surgery has the potential not only to undue the results obtained thus far, but to cause permanent spinal damage. If the person having initial surgery received only 30% relief, this is the same as a placebo response, and it is as likely as not the surgery really did nothing to relieve pain. The hopes and expectations of a surgical outcome can strongly influence the perceived results.
Therefore, the general population of chronic low back pain patients should be very cautious before accepting any repeated spine surgery from anyone unless it is absolutely necessary due to infection, loss of bowel or bladder function, or severe new loss of motor function. Surgery, whether laser or not, should be viewed as a last option. Planned in advance repeated spine surgery from one specific surgeon without second opinions is just rolling the dice and is not standard accepted medical practice. One should never ever place all their faith in one surgeon, especially if the surgeon is operating well outside the usual surgical modus operandi.

Hello Rich.
I see that Rosalynn is another success story from Bonati. I really think thats wonderful, I wish that I could have been added to that list.
As I have said in all of my posts I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression from me about Bonati, as I have said before and I think that we all are sure of, each case is different. I said in my last post that if he would have done L4/L5 on me I would have been on the table. I think my case threw him off a little, I don't think he was to happy being wrong with the location of my pain even though he didn't show it.
The fact that he didn't discuss any of my issues with me and said that it was all three surgeries or nothing and three more next year put my wife and myself right out the door. I know that I said in my first post on this site that I am fully aware of the fact that laser surgery dosen't fix your back. They did say that they could help relieve my pain. When Dr. Bonati saw what a mess my back was he should have just said , I don't think that I can help you. I would have a lot more respect for him today if he did. Maybe he honestly thought he could, but I wasn't about to let him try after a 20 min. talk .
I know what is wrong with my back, I've been to many reputable spine surgeons and they all agree spinal fusion is the only thing that they would due, along with a few other procedures. They try to fix your back not just relieve your pain.
They were all excellent they explained everything to me, even showed me models of some of the hardware they were going to use, and gave me a detailed report afterward. As all professionals should. The outcome for me didn't look to bright for a few reasons , one being the 40 yrs. of smoking that I cannot erase, that can prevent the fusion from from taking place. I can't bring myself to go through with it , because if I do there is no turning back, I will be stuck with the outcome. At least I was able to walk away from Bonati. I gave it my best shot and I will keep looking for an answer to helping with this miserable pain.
Good luck to all Jerseyboy

Good Luck Jersey Boy on your search for an answer in helping you with your miserable pain.
Marie B.

Daisy has started a new thread on spine-health.com on the Back Surgery Forum on Laser Surgery, in case anyone is interested.
Mare