Laser Spine Surgery

Hi All:

Just wanted to give an update on my son since his surgery at Bonati.
He continues to take it very easy doing only the physical therapy.
He completed his de-tox of the oxyicodone and has been oxyicodone free for ten days. He still says he has flu like symptoms but they are getting further and further apart.
Now states he can get up and be free of any sick feelings for several hours but still has bouts every day.

He went to enroll and college for the symester at Arkansas Tech and was told since he had been out of college for about 9 yrs that he would have to take the SATs again within two days. Took the SATs today without much time to study and passed. Selected his classes today and will go back to college on Monday.
What a milestone and achievement for him.

One thing he understands very clearly right now is that he has a "GLASS BACK". Alot of people after surgery believe they can resume work and all functions as normal. Though he is pain free he is being very careful.
i.ie no lifting over ten pounds adding five lbs per week to a maximum of 30 lbs.

He plans to file for disability as he knows he can not work in an environement that will require any lifting. He knows he is truly Disabled for the rest of his life. He plans to complete college to get a job eventually that requires little lifting and gets him off the disability as he does not want the disability to be long term and burden the system.

He still has two bulging disks and they could provide him pain again at any time. He very much likes being "pain free" so being careful for the rest of his life is very important.

My personal opinion is that surgery to the back does not fix the problem but provides pain relief. The bad back will always be there once damaged.

I plan to have some T-Shirts made for him that read " GLASS BACK - PLEASE HANDLE WITH CARE". This will be a daily reminder to take care of him self if he wants to remain pain free.

I am very proud of what he has accomplished since getting his LIFE BACK.

Alot of good posts lately from Marie, Fran, Rich and Carrianne. Keep up the good work.
Thanks again for all your support during such a trying ; stressful time.

Norm

Hi All:

Just wanted to give an update on my son since his surgery at Bonati.
He continues to take it very easy doing only the physical therapy.
He completed his de-tox of the oxyicodone and has been oxyicodone free for ten days. He still says he has flu like symptoms but they are getting further and further apart.
Now states he can get up and be free of any sick feelings for several hours but still has bouts every day.

He went to enroll and college for the symester at Arkansas Tech and was told since he had been out of college for about 9 yrs that he would have to take the SATs again within two days. Took the SATs today without much time to study and passed. Selected his classes today and will go back to college on Monday.
What a milestone and achievement for him.

One thing he understands very clearly right now is that he has a "GLASS BACK". Alot of people after surgery believe they can resume work and all functions as normal. Though he is pain free he is being very careful.
i.ie no lifting over ten pounds adding five lbs per week to a maximum of 30 lbs.

He plans to file for disability as he knows he can not work in an environement that will require any lifting. He knows he is truly Disabled for the rest of his life. He plans to complete college to get a job eventually that requires little lifting and gets him off the disability as he does not want the disability to be long term and burden the system.

He still has two bulging disks and they could provide him pain again at any time. He very much likes being "pain free" so being careful for the rest of his life is very important.

My personal opinion is that surgery to the back does not fix the problem but provides pain relief. The bad back will always be there once damaged.

I plan to have some T-Shirts made for him that read " GLASS BACK - PLEASE HANDLE WITH CARE". This will be a daily reminder to take care of him self if he wants to remain pain free.

I am very proud of what he has accomplished since getting his LIFE BACK.

Alot of good posts lately from Marie, Fran, Rich and Carrianne. Keep up the good work.
Thanks again for all your support during such a trying ; stressful time.

Norm

Hello Norm,

Thanks for your FANTASTIC update about your son.

Yes, you can be very proud of him. His accomplishments since surgery at Bonati are AWESOME!!! So glad he understands the need to let his body heal on its on time.

And you his Dad has helped to give your son his new life, his new beginning. That is VERY precious Norm.

This is what we should be reading about in the newspaper. The POSTIVE triumphs, not the negatives.

I wish your son the very best in his studies at Arkansas Tech.

Norm. That's one smart son you have there.

And a really smart Dad! I like the idea of the T shirts with the Glass Back lettering. Up here we would be using sweatshirts.

Everyone should realize that is the way to think post op. We will never be "normal".
We still must approach everything gingerly.

I too have a few other spots of buldging discs and actually a couple of herniated discs but since there is no pain there will be no attempt to fix them. Thank heavens for that. So the next time I think to lift high an object that is heavy my brain will say "Don't do that." And that is really hard to get into thinking in that pattern. I do so hate asking my husband to do something and hear "Wait until the next quarter' or "I'll get to it." I thihk that's another reason my back got to where it is. After waiting for days and sometimes weeks, it was bringing that object down over his head that got me a bad back. Hahahaha!

Marie B.

Carrianne, I was thinking about your saying that you still have sensations of sciatic hanging on.

Is it possible that you returned to your normal size slacks, underpants etc. already.
Do you remember Fran talking about the swelling she had in her glutemaxmous muscles and that she had to get her daughter to run out and purchase bigger sizes.

I had no swelling that I could see, but I still can't go back to the size pants I was wearing. I can't stand anything the least bit tight aroung my Lumbar region. I learned about my 4th week out that a lot of my burning muscle pain that went from the spine to the hip and down the thigh was caused by my trying to go back to my smaller slack size. I jumped up two sizes to get less pressure on the site of the incision and within a short period of time and a routine of warm moist heat helped alleviate that. I have little if any at this point of sciatica indicating the nerves are healing without all of the extra pressure on the L 4 & L5 vertebrae.

Fran said she didn't go back to a belt until one year later. This is just a suggestion.
I know what you are feeling but I don't know exactly how you feel.
I told Fran it is a great blow to my pride to walk around with baggy pants but, Hey! I'm in no pain. Would you believe I am almost off Tylenol. But I will ever be aware of that back. I talks to me.

Another thing I learned. When JoeBob and you first went to Bonati, I can remember both of you saying that you were told to walk at least an hour a day.
I caused myself a lot of grief trying to do that even when I broke up the hour into 15 min. segments. I decided to walk gently. If in a year I'm up to one hour or more, I'll be happy. So I'm not rushing anything.

Marie B.

My spouse had a laminotomy, forminotomy, and a partial discectomy@ L-5 S-1. Yes he had done pt and continues at home with all the exercises. i also have a ultra sound that i do on him and he wears a tens unit too. Everything that he did at pt. He takes a low dose of ultracet to help with the pain. Not any narcotics that are addicting. But when i talked to the institute, the young lady that i spoke to taold me that they put a epidural injection at the sight of the surgery for inflamation, and that because his pain came back only 8 weeks out, might be that the injection has wore off. So for us to think that he was pain free before he got off the table was an untrue fact, because the injection that they give is for pain at surgery sight. So what we thought that they took care of his problem and reaaly the injection just hadn't wore off yet. I'm not saying that they didn't help him, because maybe he needs another surgery, but they were misleading when my husband asked was he off any pain meds before he got off the table because he didn't feel any pain. But they didn't tell him about the injection, i found out 8 weeks later. I think that is a little bit deceiptful. But my husband is still doing the strenghtening exercises that his back needs. Thank you for your concern i really appreciate it. Have a good weekend. God Bless Mary

Hi Mary,

Some very interesting points that you brought out about the surgery that your husband had at LSI.

I was aware of their use of epidural injections being done, essentially along with the surgery and that some that have gone for laser surgery at both Bonati and LSI have received several of these injections prior to leaving.

One of my concerns with laser surgery is the number of epidural injections that they do give. The usual is 3 injections over a period of a year, yet these places seem to do a minimum of 1 and many times several, over a 1-2 week period, which is far more than is recommended to be done.

I have always said that if you give someone enough steroid injections, their pain will be gone for sure, but for how long?

It is very misleading at the very least and if, as in your husband's case, the epidural injection wears off, then they say you need another one.
I my opinion, that is not the same as having successful surgery and being pain free.

I also am concerned about the amount of steroid circulating in the body. The side affects can be quite serious with that amount of continued steroid being placed in the body.

Another concern I have with the steroid injections is this. If you leave the OR table pain free, start PT and are pain free, it doesn't give the patient and the PT the real picture of how you feel, how your recovery is and how much is too much PT to start with. Since the patient isn't in pain, it is quite possible that the patient will be doing far to much PT right from the start and the potential is there to do further damage to the spine, muscles, tendons and ligaments.
Then when the injection wears off, the result can be pain from just simply having done too much PT to soon and now muscles are terrible sore or there is damage to the surgical area.

This can especially be the case if there is going to be some permanent weakness or damage to some muscles because of the spinal issues, as in my case. One doesn't know if that will be the case until after surgery and recovery is on the way with a good PT program.
If there is some residual muscle weakness or damage, progressing to quickly in a PT program because you, initially have no pain, can do permanent injury to those muscles and make things worse. It is also very easy to tear those muscles as well.
I speak from personal experience on over doing and tearing the muscle that had permanent damage to it. I did it and have paid the price since and I didn't have laser spine surgery.

Another point I wanted to bring up, Mary, is your use of the ultra sound on your husband. As far as I know, and have been told this by my own spine doctor, pain doctor, my PT and well as a friend of my daughter's who is a well trained and well experienced physical therapist, ultra sound can only be used for a few weeks, about 8-10 times, before it will start to damage tissues internally. that is why it isn't used for the entire time of PT.
I think you should check about using it any further, as it may possibly account for some of your husband's pain.

As for actually getting another epidural injection, I would think about that for a while. Maybe your husband should have another MRI to be sure that something else isn't causing the problem, and maybe another opinion before returning to LSI for further treatment, especially where you feel that they where not completely honest with you.

This is not to say that either LSI or Bonati or any other laser spine surgery facilities don't have very successful surgeries, it's just that in this particular case, it doesn't sound like they where completely open and honest with the patient and his family.

That to me, is a very disturbing situation and unfortunately he happens far to often with far to many doctors.

As most, if not all of us have repeatedly said with our posts, honesty and trust, full disclosure and being fully confident and comfortable with our doctors is most essential.

One key thing I have learned in my 57 years of life is this. If any doctor has a problem with my questions, will not answer my questions, makes me feel like I'm asking to many questions, makes me feel uncomfortable (that doesn't include the reason I am seeing the doctor), this doctor isn't for me and IMHO, shouldn't be a doctor for anyone.

I may not know as much as the doctor does, I may be wording the questions wrong, not understanding, it doesn't really matter. The fact is this. It is my body and if you want to operate on me, have me take medications, do tests etc. I am entitled to as detailed an answer to my questions as I desire, and if I can't get it from the doc. well, I'm out the door and off to another one.

Good luck Mary and I hope your husband starts to feel better soon.

Fran

Hi Mary,

Some very interesting points that you brought out about the surgery that your husband had at LSI.

I was aware of their use of epidural injections being done, essentially along with the surgery and that some that have gone for laser surgery at both Bonati and LSI have received several of these injections prior to leaving.

One of my concerns with laser surgery is the number of epidural injections that they do give. The usual is 3 injections over a period of a year, yet these places seem to do a minimum of 1 and many times several, over a 1-2 week period, which is far more than is recommended to be done.

I have always said that if you give someone enough steroid injections, their pain will be gone for sure, but for how long?

It is very misleading at the very least and if, as in your husband's case, the epidural injection wears off, then they say you need another one.
I my opinion, that is not the same as having successful surgery and being pain free.

I also am concerned about the amount of steroid circulating in the body. The side affects can be quite serious with that amount of continued steroid being placed in the body.

Another concern I have with the steroid injections is this. If you leave the OR table pain free, start PT and are pain free, it doesn't give the patient and the PT the real picture of how you feel, how your recovery is and how much is too much PT to start with. Since the patient isn't in pain, it is quite possible that the patient will be doing far to much PT right from the start and the potential is there to do further damage to the spine, muscles, tendons and ligaments.
Then when the injection wears off, the result can be pain from just simply having done too much PT to soon and now muscles are terrible sore or there is damage to the surgical area.

This can especially be the case if there is going to be some permanent weakness or damage to some muscles because of the spinal issues, as in my case. One doesn't know if that will be the case until after surgery and recovery is on the way with a good PT program.
If there is some residual muscle weakness or damage, progressing to quickly in a PT program because you, initially have no pain, can do permanent injury to those muscles and make things worse. It is also very easy to tear those muscles as well.
I speak from personal experience on over doing and tearing the muscle that had permanent damage to it. I did it and have paid the price since and I didn't have laser spine surgery.

Another point I wanted to bring up, Mary, is your use of the ultra sound on your husband. As far as I know, and have been told this by my own spine doctor, pain doctor, my PT and well as a friend of my daughter's who is a well trained and well experienced physical therapist, ultra sound can only be used for a few weeks, about 8-10 times, before it will start to damage tissues internally. that is why it isn't used for the entire time of PT.
I think you should check about using it any further, as it may possibly account for some of your husband's pain.

As for actually getting another epidural injection, I would think about that for a while. Maybe your husband should have another MRI to be sure that something else isn't causing the problem, and maybe another opinion before returning to LSI for further treatment, especially where you feel that they where not completely honest with you.

This is not to say that either LSI or Bonati or any other laser spine surgery facilities don't have very successful surgeries, it's just that in this particular case, it doesn't sound like they where completely open and honest with the patient and his family.

That to me, is a very disturbing situation and unfortunately he happens far to often with far to many doctors.

As most, if not all of us have repeatedly said with our posts, honesty and trust, full disclosure and being fully confident and comfortable with our doctors is most essential.

One key thing I have learned in my 57 years of life is this. If any doctor has a problem with my questions, will not answer my questions, makes me feel like I'm asking to many questions, makes me feel uncomfortable (that doesn't include the reason I am seeing the doctor), this doctor isn't for me and IMHO, shouldn't be a doctor for anyone.

I may not know as much as the doctor does, I may be wording the questions wrong, not understanding, it doesn't really matter. The fact is this. It is my body and if you want to operate on me, have me take medications, do tests etc. I am entitled to as detailed an answer to my questions as I desire, and if I can't get it from the doc. well, I'm out the door and off to another one.

Good luck Mary and I hope your husband starts to feel better soon.

Fran

Hi Mary,

Some very interesting points that you brought out about the surgery that your husband had at LSI.

I was aware of their use of epidural injections being done, essentially along with the surgery and that some that have gone for laser surgery at both Bonati and LSI have received several of these injections prior to leaving.

One of my concerns with laser surgery is the number of epidural injections that they do give. The usual is 3 injections over a period of a year, yet these places seem to do a minimum of 1 and many times several, over a 1-2 week period, which is far more than is recommended to be done.

I have always said that if you give someone enough steroid injections, their pain will be gone for sure, but for how long?

It is very misleading at the very least and if, as in your husband's case, the epidural injection wears off, then they say you need another one.
I my opinion, that is not the same as having successful surgery and being pain free.

I also am concerned about the amount of steroid circulating in the body. The side affects can be quite serious with that amount of continued steroid being placed in the body.

Another concern I have with the steroid injections is this. If you leave the OR table pain free, start PT and are pain free, it doesn't give the patient and the PT the real picture of how you feel, how your recovery is and how much is too much PT to start with. Since the patient isn't in pain, it is quite possible that the patient will be doing far to much PT right from the start and the potential is there to do further damage to the spine, muscles, tendons and ligaments.
Then when the injection wears off, the result can be pain from just simply having done too much PT to soon and now muscles are terrible sore or there is damage to the surgical area.

This can especially be the case if there is going to be some permanent weakness or damage to some muscles because of the spinal issues, as in my case. One doesn't know if that will be the case until after surgery and recovery is on the way with a good PT program.
If there is some residual muscle weakness or damage, progressing to quickly in a PT program because you, initially have no pain, can do permanent injury to those muscles and make things worse. It is also very easy to tear those muscles as well.
I speak from personal experience on over doing and tearing the muscle that had permanent damage to it. I did it and have paid the price since and I didn't have laser spine surgery.

Another point I wanted to bring up, Mary, is your use of the ultra sound on your husband. As far as I know, and have been told this by my own spine doctor, pain doctor, my PT and well as a friend of my daughter's who is a well trained and well experienced physical therapist, ultra sound can only be used for a few weeks, about 8-10 times, before it will start to damage tissues internally. that is why it isn't used for the entire time of PT.
I think you should check about using it any further, as it may possibly account for some of your husband's pain.

As for actually getting another epidural injection, I would think about that for a while. Maybe your husband should have another MRI to be sure that something else isn't causing the problem, and maybe another opinion before returning to LSI for further treatment, especially where you feel that they where not completely honest with you.

This is not to say that either LSI or Bonati or any other laser spine surgery facilities don't have very successful surgeries, it's just that in this particular case, it doesn't sound like they where completely open and honest with the patient and his family.

That to me, is a very disturbing situation and unfortunately he happens far to often with far to many doctors.

As most, if not all of us have repeatedly said with our posts, honesty and trust, full disclosure and being fully confident and comfortable with our doctors is most essential.

One key thing I have learned in my 57 years of life is this. If any doctor has a problem with my questions, will not answer my questions, makes me feel like I'm asking to many questions, makes me feel uncomfortable (that doesn't include the reason I am seeing the doctor), this doctor isn't for me and IMHO, shouldn't be a doctor for anyone.

I may not know as much as the doctor does, I may be wording the questions wrong, not understanding, it doesn't really matter. The fact is this. It is my body and if you want to operate on me, have me take medications, do tests etc. I am entitled to as detailed an answer to my questions as I desire, and if I can't get it from the doc. well, I'm out the door and off to another one.

Good luck Mary and I hope your husband starts to feel better soon.

Fran

Why suddenly are posts being duplicated or triplicated? Is that the poster or the postee?

Marie B.

Norm,

Yeah!!! Thanks for the very uplifting news on your son!! So wonderful to hear he's doing so well. what a blessing to the whole family!!!! Please congratulate him for us and let him know how happy we are so many prayers have been answered! I bet he's seeing his life so differently now!!!!

Best wishes to you all and God bless,
Carrianne

Mare,

You're at LSI today and I want to wish you many blessings as you begin the process. Have faith and listen to your heart and head!

I sent you a private message last week about me stopping by tomorrow on my lunch break. If it's ok, I'd like to give you my work number so you can call me when you're "waiting" for your next appt. I can take a lunch whenever and can be there in 5 minutes. Please give me the ok and I'll send it to you in a private message. I totally understand how draining the process is, so if you're not up for visitors, I completely understand!!!

Best wishes to you and God bless,
Carrianne

I'm trying to figure out how that post got on 3 times myself.

I hit submit once, and there it was, posted. Was up really late as the power was out from a car accident around the corner and we had no heat. We where thinking of going to a motel if the power didn't come back soon and it was getting really cold and a big snowstorm was coming.

Anyway, the power came back, plugged in the laptop to keep it charged, battery was wearing down, and checked a couple of things on line, including here and all that was posted was my one post.

Presto this morning it was there 3 times.? No idea, can't figure out how it happened, but don't think it was me.

Fran

Norm,

I just love that wording. How true it is. We may have one part healed or many parts healed with our spine, but, there are still pieces missing from the spine and care will always be needed.

I would suggest, though, that you don't put that on the back of the shirt. From experience it, it may set your son up to be a target of the infamous shopping carts.

Seems that if you are walking around with a cast on your arm, arm in a sling, on crutches, everyone rams into you with something.

No idea if it is on purpose or just coincidence but it never seems to fail. Hubby in a cast and sling, presto everyone is running into that arm and it 's not as if he is really short like me, he's almost 6 feet tall, but no one missed him.

Same with me, when it was my arm and with my spine, well, 2 weeks after surgery, I decided to do the grocery shopping with him. We went at a very non-busy time in the middle of the week. 4 times in 15 minutes I had carriages in my back and butt.
I just turned around to hubby and said "that's it I'm out of here, it's all yours, see you at the car.

Seems like people have a 6th sense to ram into you when they shouldn't be doing it all, but never fails when it's the worst time.
Don't put a bull's eye on your son's back to tell them "hit him in the back". Put it on the front of the shirt, safer that way. LOL

So glad your son is doing so well. "glass back and all". it's such wonderful news.

Marie, same goes for you and the shopping malls. They will find you and ram into you, one way or another. Just seems to be the way it goes. No need to rush in to them, just let time heal and be patient

Fran

Fran, You know what aggravates me? It's that woman who insists on putting all of her groceries on the counter when you are still standing in front of the cashier. She has to squeeze herself in front of her cart to do it. Then she keeps swinging that fat old purse of hers, dangling from her arm, against your back everytime she swings to pick something out of her cart. I said in a very loud voice to the cashier, "If that woman keep pushing and shoving while assaulting my back with her purse, you are to call security immediately." That made her back up. The mumbled apology meant nothing. She knew what she was doing. A woman can tell when her puse is hitting something. There are loads of ignoramuses out there.

Marie B.

Carriane, When you say you walk, what speed are you going? I walk at a normal pace but certainly not at the pace I used to do when I would walk in the past.

Even at that slower pace, when walking with my husband, with my short legs, I feel like a chihuahua walking beside a greyhound.

If you ever watch the Westminister Dog Shows, you will get an excellent image of what I mean.

I certainly am not doing power walking. So what is everyone doing when walking?

Marie B.

Marie, don't you just love those kind of people at the registers? I had one once that did it and apologized to me. I told her please, please don't do it again. I'm only 3 weeks post spinal surgery. Next thing I knew she was screaming and yelling at me about how I had no right to be out in public and I need to get out of the store ASAP and proceeded to try and slam her cart into me.
Fortunately I was in the local market and the people in there know us well, (my 29 year old son worked there when he was in HS), and that was the end of this lady in there. She was tossed out without her groceries and banned from the store.

I had hoped that by now, people would have more understanding about handicapped, disabled, injured people etc. but no such luck.
They are no better than they where when both of grown kids where little.

My son had a serious ankle injury when he was in HS. late fall, winter of 1993-1994 and was in a cast for 10 weeks after ankle reconstruction.
He was bound and determined that the cast and crutches weren't going to keep him totally imprisoned at home. Even in the snow and ice, he wanted out.
He needed some clothes, boys do grow out of them. So I took him out for some shopping. OH, was that an experience. All of a sudden my son in a cast and using crutches became invisible. I'm standing there, he's looking at the t-shirts and a salesperson, asks me if I need help. My son is asking if they have the shirt in his size and he's ignored.
5 times he asked, 5 times he's ignored. So I told the salesperson to ask the customer, my son; I'm just the bill payer. She didn't like that and had the nerve to tell me that my son belonged at home, not out in public in "his condition".
Of course that didn't include the people who would slam the door on him while he's trying to go through or the ones that stood there and complained about him taking so long to open a door while he tries to hold the crutches, not put weight on his foot and pull the door, all at the same time. Not one of them would help him though.

But, really the saddest experience was a few weeks ago.
A friend and I where out shopping. We where headed in the door of a store and ahead of us was a women with a baby stroller and a child about 5. They where going to attempt to get the doors open and go in. Instinctively, my friend and I went ahead of her. I held the first door open and my friend went and grabbed the inner door and held it open for them.
Once inside, the mother said "thank you, but may I ask you why you did that for us?" I just looked at her with total shock and then realized why she had asked us why.
Nothing had changed since my kids where little and it was me in the same position and no one opened a door for me, but where more than eager to just let it close on us all the time.
We told her how both of us remembered what it was like when our kids where little and just automatically opened the door without thinking about it. She smiled and said "thank you, no one has ever done that for me before when I'm with the kids, but they are more than happy to do it for me when I'm alone."

How sad is it, that people just don't think, don't care and are so into themselves, that they never think about anyone else in the world.

Fran

You asked Marie, so I'll tell you.

Now that it's winter and has been full of snow and ice, except for this past week, my walking is slowly on a treadmill mostly.

When I can't get outside to walk, it is about 15 minutes at a time on the treadmill about 3 times a day.
Start with simple stretches and then I walk. then I rest some and just move around the house.

Twice a week I get out to a very small local mall. Stretch at home first, then a bit of stretching inside the mall. We park really close to the entrance and I leave my coat in the car and just have a sweatshirt on. Walk in there for about 20 minutes. Then a friend and I get a cup of coffee and we walk again, then it's out the door to the car. Coat back on and grab some lunch.

This past week was heaven. no snow, ice all gone and it was up and down the road. stretches always first though.

I will admit this. I feel better when I can walk the mall, which is fairly empty when I go and plenty of room to not get bumped or anything by anyone or when walking outside on the street. It just doesn't feel the same when I use the treadmill.

Maybe it's all in my head, but it feels better afterwards. I feel less muscle tightness and am able to feel freer moving around afterwards than when I've walked on the treadmill.

Fran