Laser Spine Surgery

Hi Norm!

So happy to hear that Norm Jr. is doing so well! I can't tell you how great it is to hear that!! We've certainly been praying for him and will continue to do so!

Thanks so much for sharing the great news with us! Please keep in touch, have a safe drive home, and Merry CHRISTmas!!! What a great gift!!!!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Marie,
I'm happy to hear that your recovery is going so well also!!! We sure do have a lot to be thankful for!!! Keep up the good work!!!!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Norm, I am 5 weeks 3 days out of Min. Invasive Surgery. 6 weeks is just about right on the advice that Dr. Moffit gave to your son on trying to see what he can really do in about that length of time.
I was not allowed to do any PT in these post op weeks, but I expect some time in the next month or two, my doctor will make the suggestion to me

You said you decided to put your son on a plane rather then have him do a 16 hour drive. I am amazed that anyone can go through an airport after sinal surgery. Joe Bob flew to...I think it was Pennsylvania. I can't imagine being in those seats when my back aches. First class seating might be better, but I can't stand the thought of giving so much money just to have a normal size seat. That was more amazing to me then how quickly he recoverd.

I worry when there is anyone around me that I might get bumped while my spine is trying to decide where my equilibrium is centerd and find myself on the floor. It is, I'm sure, the Fusion (no rods) that makes me feel that way.
When I went into surgery I entered the OR with an attitude that if Joe Bob can walk and swim and go to Disney World as he reported when he went to Bonati, (He was in Fla. for 2 weeks. I thought to myself, "I can do that." Now all of these weeks later, I can say "I had my head in the clouds." The first week & 2 days post op I considered that this was definitely more painful than all of the babies I had. No other surgery made me worry that I might be left with some form of pain in my body. My family would here me say out loud the question to the Lord, "Lord, are you going to heal me to I can get back to my daily life?"

The difference between my recovery and JoeBob's is as different as day and night.
I keep telling Rich it is because of age, but Rich keeps assuring me that it will be all right as time goes by. And you know what? It is getting better every day.
I hope your son has the results of Joe Bob....but of course he is young so those bones and tissues will heal.
You can count on me to remind the Lord that the young man has responsibilities and a family and needs to get back his life as soon as possible. The Lord is Good and He will hear the request.

Merry Christmas and a pain free New Year for you son and the family.

Marie B.

Hello Gail,

You have done your research well. I wish you the very best at Bonati.

If you have any questions do ask them on this thread and I know you will receive a response.

Have a good day!

RichT

Hi Everyone,

Great to hear such encouraging news on your progress after your surgeries, my thoughts and prayers are with you all, but take it easy. Don't forget to rest up too.

I was wondering if anyone has any advice on dealing with the side-effects of slow-release Morphine. It's driving me nuts!!! The mood swings, the double vision, the constant itching to name but a few. I was wondering if there was anything herbal, a tea or smthg.......actually anything..... my body,mind and esp my family will be forever grateful. "Happy holidays" everyone.

Regards Noelle

Hello Noelle,

Nice hearing from you again.

I can only speak from my experiences with oxycodone (Viodin is trade name I believe). My doctor put me on the pain medication before my epidural to reduce my back pain. WELLLLll oxycodone had the effect of my literally sleeping the days and nights away. I had no energy, felt like I was half there. I had no desire to do anything. Thank goodness I did not have the nasty side effects that you are having with the slow-release morphine.

Then my PM doc prescribed Lyrica. That I should take it with oxycodone. Noelle, that stuff was terrible. It drove me nuts at night as I became so restless/tight and itched, that I couldn't get any sleep at night. After two days I called my PM doc and told him I wanted off Lyrica. He advised me to give it a try for 7 days. Well I lasted for a total of 5 days and said "ENOUGH". It was driving me crazy so I stopped taking it. It certainly didn't do me any good anyway.

After a couple more weeks on oxycodone I decided there was no way I was going to spend the rest of my life in this "suspended" state of sleeping all the time even if it did reduce the pain somewhat. I was taking 6 pills during the course of a day, and slowly started to decrease the number of pills I took. (Stopping abruptly is not recommended for such medications.) I believe it took me a bit over a week to completely stop taking oxycodone. There is no better way to say it than "The withdrawal was pure H#ll!!!!" The worst was at night because my whole body felt very "uptight and crawling" for lack of a better way to say it. It took another two weeks before the nasty effects of withdawal were gone. Getting off of oxycodone and Lycrica was the best thing I ever did for my body. I could deal with the pain much better than I could deal with the two drugs.

Noelle, I hope someone can help you regarding the very bad side effects you are having with the morphine, which as you and I know is very addictive. Honestly, if your pain wasn't so bad I'd hope your doctor would encourage you to withdraw from taking the morphine.

I hope and pray you are able to find a spine specialist that your doctor will okay for you to see. Physician Mr. Knight REALLY has impressed me with all the surgeries he has done, his numerous publications and presentations to the spinal medical community. His noninvasive procedures seem very similar to those used at Bonati except he does not use lasers if I recall correctly. I'd see him tomorrow if it wasn't for the ocean separating us.

I truly hope that you will find a way that is right for you to reduce the back pain you have.

Thank goodness your incredible sense of humor carries you through.

Take care. Have a most wonderful Merry Christmas, and may the coming year be a most positive one for you.

RichT

P.S. - Sorry for the length of this post.

Hello Carol,

I would like to comment/expand upon a statement in your post of 12/17/07 23:18pm.

"the problem is that I think I'm losing my mind, can't remember a darn thing!!" - Two nights ago was not a good one for me. Very little sleep because of pain, etc. I really couldn't sleep much during the day. WELLLLLlll, guess what - my ole mind had a heck of a time functioning yesterday until late in the day thnigs seemed to get better.

Amazingly I slept very well last night and this morning feel "bright and alert"

The point - Getting a good night's rest with very little pain makes a HUGE difference on how we can MENTALLY (and physically) function.

Thoughts from anyone?

RichT

Thanks for your reply. Boy have I done my research! The day my doc told me I had to have a fusion with screws/rods was the very day I got busy online and found Bonati. In fact, I am headed to the Mayo Clinic in MN in Jan. to get one last opinion BUT I will not be talked out of Bonati... I went to their seminar a few weeks ago, and if someone has the financial resources then they'd be crazy not to seek out this type of treatment. I left amazed at what all I was told. Sure, they aren't GOD, however, I am very willing to try that method first BEFORE having a 6 inch slice down my back.

Best wishes to you and happy holidays.

gail

Noelle, I think most spiney posters have tried various narcotic meds. I have never met anyone who said that were completely free of pain on any narcotic med. alone. And they all have side-effects which are miserable to deal with. Rich's experience is like most of us. We go to our doctors like little birds hoping that this time he will drop a pill on us that will make everything better. It never happens. There is always something that prevents us from having complete body peace.

My personal opinion is this: Narcotics are just a cover-up and they can't be taken forever. They are all addictive. It does not take long before we are very anxious to stop them.

When Rich talks about sleeping alot when on a hycodone, I know exactly what he is talking about. I lived in my recliner and I slept; taking a morning nap, an afternoon nap and it was a fight to stay awake before hitting the sack for the night.
And then it was a blank night until I would awake "groggy" the next morning.
Narcotics are awful. If my fear of being addicted, my dislike of sleeping all of the time, and the concern that every year I was getting older which could make any surgery more difficulty, I might have considered taking meds as my PM kept suggesting. But at the same time, my PM was the one who gave me the name of the surgeon who I decided to have do my Min. Inv. surgery. I will always be grateful for my PM for that referral. It was reading the report from one aggresive spinal surgeon that made him give me that referral. I think the reason he hesitated on insisting continuing meds was the fact that PM's are usually anesthesiologists and as much as then know, they still have to defer to the spinal surgeon for complete knowledge and experience.

The best decision, I made was to walk hand in hand through communications with my PMC M.D. my PM. MD and my spinal surgeon. True it took over a year for me to come to that decision but I don't regret it. I try not to worry about the future when I read about others who have to return to face more surgery. Do not believe that meds are the complete answer particularly if your symptoms continue over time or increase in severity.

Marie B.

Gail, Why has Fusion been presented to you? And how many levels were they talking about in regard to the Fusion? I had Fusion Insitu at the L4-L5. I had spondy...not bad, but enough that if it had been ignored the degeneration around the facets could have held out for the future a totally collapsed, herniated and uncovered disc. Insitu means they can do the Fusion using the "roofs" of the vertebrae from a Laminectoy when stenosis comes into play.for the spinal support. By roughing the sides of the vertebrae, the Fusion will come into effect as the bone heals. I was happy that my surgeon suggested this for me because I too had read about how many of the laser sites were removing rods. There are people who have problems. But I roamed around and talked to a lot of people who had Fusion with rods and they did not have problems. It seems to me that it is a different surgical approach where in the US advises Fusion and Europe advises against it.

For a long time, I ran from Fusion and particularly with instrumentation. We have read from posters who convinced their doctors to procede with spinal surgery leaving out the Fusion and later have found out that it was not a good decision.
When you read about Carol calling me her "spinal twin", that was because we had stenosis and spondy. Carol.....and only she can say this...may go to Bonati for a look see but she just may walk away if she finds they have a lot of people coming back because of further slippage of the spine that can occur post surgery. All of this is Carol's decision and she too is a very good researcher.

I would be happier if the laser sites would discuss this subject of spondy and Fusion more then what they do. I also wonder why the institutes have no connection to hospitals in the area. That must be a tough situation if a patient has problems that the institute can't handle and all the patient can do is go to an emergency room for help. A lot of thinking from all angles has to be done in this betrayal of us that the spine does.

Marie B.

I don't have my diagnosis in front of me but yes, I have spondy, bulged disk, foramina (sp?) is compressed, a disk that has totally collasped and on top of another, stenosis... sorry but as I said I don't have my diagnosis in front of me. I was thrown at a young age from horses a lot... stupid me kept getting back on them : ( The doc here wants to take a piece of hip bone and do the fusion... why am I considering laser? Becuase I am scared to death of open... I have had many surgeries (my profile has the link to my story and pics of me) and the last one I had, I got so apprehensive about being put under, that it was the last straw for me.

I am 45, my insurance is covered with Bonati, and I want to try this first and then if more problems arise I will address them then. I actually don't have pain everyday, but unfortunately can't take any ibuprofhen b/c of my stomach, and pain meds are not my cup of tea.

I appreciate all of what you all have written as it has been and still is a world of help to me.

Happy holidays!

gail

Hello Gail,

You are getting good thoughts and wisdom from Marie.

One line in your post caught my eye - "The doc here wants to take a piece of hip bone and do the fusion... " Gail, I am SOOOOOooooo glad you said NO to that. Sorry, but taking a piece of bone from your hip is like ancient surgery. There are far FAR better ways today. There is NO need to mess with your hip at all. Now my mind went blank as to how the state of the art does a fusion. Different from what Marie has stated. Okay, give this oldie awhile and I will think of it. Personally I really like the technique that Marie's doctor used.

Gail, you are VERY fortunate that your insurance and Bonati "get along" together. Most fortunate indeed.

Yes me to - I can't take ibuprofhen either and that is because I also take Voltaren for my arthritis.

Take care. My thoughts and prayers are with you as your proceed down the Bonati road.

Norm is a busy fellow with his son these days, so just be patient. He will give us an update in a few days most likely and then I trust will see your question to him.

RichT

RichT

Back again Gail,

My spinal surgeon uses a procedure called BMP (bone morphogenetic protein). There is a good article about it on the Virginia Spine Institute web site.

Okay, you have me very curious - Your logon would indicate you are from Alabama. be that right or wrong. Noticed you are going to the Mayo Clinic in MN. WOW, MN is where I was born and raised.

Take care.

RichT

Gail:

If the Gulf Island Tennis and Resort Club is where you will be staying you will be pleasantly surprised. It is right on the gulf of Mexico and the apartments are very nice. The one I am in currently has all the amenities including stove, refrigerator, washer and dryer and two bedrooms.
Whn I look out my window I see the gulf of mexico. We watched two dolphins playing in the alcove from our bannister rail.

The place includes swimming pool, tennis courts, club house with large screen TV AND POOL TABLES, saunas and weight/exercise room.
All for $57.00 a day.

My son is doing extremely good today. We went shopping for toys for the grandkids, went out to lunch and played around for about four hours.
He is getting hard for me to keep up with he feels so good.
Hi walk has improved immensely and he is still pain free.
He is taking it very easy though because he is enjoying being pain free.

Marie: Thanks for the update on your progress. I am glad it is going well for you.

May God belss you all and keep you pain free. I am a believer in any surgery that helps someone in pain. There is hope for relief. For anyone new to the site, keep searching and read these posts. There is a wealth of knowledge here.

Norm

Hi Carrianne:

I just wanted to say it was a pleasure having lunch with you and your husband last Sunday in Hudson Florida. My son and I enjoyed it alot.

I hope you are doing well also and get to where you feel you need to be in the pain category which we hope is "0" pain.

It is really a joy to meet such nice ; christian people like you and your husband.

RichT: For your info Carrianne is not only smart but a very pretty; young lady. She has a lot going for her..

Norm

Thanks for your comments. My out of pocket expense to Bonati is $500 per procedure and at this point they think I will need 2. I will know for sure when I go for my work up in March. I am staying at the Gulf Island for $400 a week.... at this point Bonati thinks I am looking at 2 weeks. I may book an extra week just to be safe, plus heck it looks to be gorgeous!

Yes I am a Bama girl, born and raised! We have a house in Orange Beach, hence my log in name. My profile has a link to a webiste that I am on, you can see pics of me there and my story. I have had Gastric Bypass surgery so that is what the site is about.

I met my best friend online and he lives in MN... that is how I am getting to seek the best at the Mayo Clinic. But again, I am sold on Bonati and will TRY to listen objectively to their advice.

I will be away from the computer until the first of the year or so... I teach school and use my class computer to stay hooked to the world as my daughter just took our home computer to the college dorms. We get out for the holidays after tomorrow : ) 2 plus weeks of vacation : )

Have a super holiday, and it has been nice chattin' with you, Rich.

gail

Thanks for letting me know. I have booked a condo on the 5th floor... yes I love dolphins and see them at my beach home all the time... even have one tatooed to my arse... a little artwork I brought back as a souvenier from a trip to Paris France : ) That was probably more than you wanted to know : ) LOL

So glad to hear of the success so far with your son. He is truly blessed to have a father for you... I see the love and concern in every word that you write. I would LOVE to call him in the coming year and hear his tale if he doesn't mind.... but I can message you my number much later. Have a safe trip home, I'll be MIA for a few weeeks on vacation, but I will be thinking of you and your son.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write me. I appreciate it so much!

gail

Bone grafts from hip location are no longer done by all doctors but there are still a lot of them out there that take that bone graft from the hip. Gail, to remove the very large area of stenosis, my doctor did a Lamenectomy on L4 and part of L5. He had to remove a very large amount of the ligamentum flavum that had buckled from the buldging disc pressure. My cauda equina was very suppressed.
To get back to that bone graft. My surgeon used that spinous process from the L4 -and L5 Laminectomy to use as the bone fusion but since I had such small spinal processes he wrote on the surgical report that there was a dearth of bone tissue for the Fusion and he finished it off by using the protein mixture BMP to encourage bone growth.
My last x-Ray is showing everything is going along like clockwork so don't be afraid of that method. I really don't think the laser institutes uses any of those materials since Fusion is not on their list of procedures.

Just be careful...be careful! That spondy as you grow older and particularly if you have had surgery can sneak up on you and there you are once more in pain and looking at surgery for a second go round.

Marie B..

One thing I think we all need to talk about is how do we women not gain weight during all of this. This coddling me and someone else doing the cooking, cleaning and laundry is causing me to gain weight and walking if not keeping the pounds off. I don't think it is the bone growth that is adding the weight....don't I wish.

Marie B.

Oh don't worry... I will be asking in March what they plan to do for my spondy... I read some about it on their site... and my slippage has been rated "grade 2"... so out of 3, that is pretty bad.

I am also going to the Mayo Clinic and will ask about it then too. I am planning my surgery when I get out of school, as I am a teacher, so I have a few months to decide.

Thanks for your words of wisdom. I wish I could tell you what to do about the weight gain... but I am of no advice as I am addicted to food and have had gastric bypass surgery myself, so I couldn't begin to advise on that!

Take care!

gail

Hi everyone!

I'm in week 3 of physical therapy and my legs are killing me (in a good way)! They're very conservative and thorough which I like! Most physical therapists won't keep you there an hour-and-a-half 3 days a week! I like it here! Still have back stiffness, but manual therapy sure helps that! I also get pain if I have to jolt suddenly (like when my cat thinks it'd be funny to jump in front of me when I'm walking) or sneeze. I get sporadic pain/tingles in my legs, but NOTHING like it was before! Yes, I have a ways to go, but I have come a long way. I'm going to set an appt. for a reevaluation in late February.

Just want to keep you all updated!!!!

So glad to continue reading the great results from Marie and Norm!

Rich, glad your epidurals are working!!!! So happy for you!!!!

Carol, great to hear from you again!!!!

Gail, I wish you all the best in your quest to recovery! I have had surgery at The Bonati institute so if you have any questions I'm more than happy to answer them from my experience.

Best wishes, Merry Christmas to you all, and God bless!!!!
Carrianne