Hello Billy,

Thanks for the additional information. NO, you do not ramble. You share with us the "facts" as you know and understand them. I wish we all could do as well.

Pina presented some very good thoughts. No argument here.

I'm very glad that you will be having the "minimal invasive type of surgery". Much MUCH better in my mind than the horrid old approach.

I wish you the very best. My thoughts and prayers are and will be with you. Your surgery will be over with on Tuesday before my spine surgeon and I have our "discussion".

Rest well in your decision.

RichT

Billy,

I feel your pain, literally and figuratively. It is good news that your motor loss is only a couple of weeks old. As the docs explained it to me, at the nerve it has several different connectors, or roots, that control different things. Some handle motor skills (strength to move), some handle sensation, and some pain. Some can be pinched worse than others. This is what happenned to me and is happenning to you. The nerve roots that control motor function and sensation are most compromised. This is what happenned in my case. When my herniation first finally went to real severe status, I had incredible pain, but no weakness or sensory problems. Then, as the days past, the pain actually got a bit better, but the motor loss (weakness) and sensation problems got worse everyday. At the end, I could get myself in a position where I had no pain, but I could never get rid of the weakness or numbness. That was really terrifying.

I had surgery 6 days after my weakness and numbness started and the docs told me that they could not guarantee anything I lost would come back, which was big motivation to get the surgery now. I am now 3 days post surgery, however, and I have about 85%of the lost weakness and sensation back, so I am hopeful that things will continue to improve. I certainly attribute my good fortune to my quick decision to have surgery. Don't miss your surgery appointment tomorrow.

As for the proceedure, the only thing you feel post-op is the limited pain and ability to move your back without pain at the site of the incision. However, the pain for me is 1/10th the pain of the herniation itself. In fact, the pain really is not a factor, its really not bad. Its just that the muscles are tight and dont want to flex much, and the muscles they have to cut some control your ability to move, bend and twist. For the first 24 hours post-op its hard to shift and move your hips and back because it hurts and is tight, but once you get to your feet it is not hard or painful to walk, and you will walk a mere hours after surgery. Today I feel much better and it is getting easier every hour now to get up and down. My surgery was outpatient so I went home the same day. One thing I did learn when I got home was to hang out and sleep in a reclining chair for a couple days until the back pain and tightness subsides. It makes it much less effort to get up and down.

I feel today that, if I had to, I could go back to work at my desk job. Of course, I will not do anything to push it, but just to let you know that I am feeling that much better.

I will tell you one interesting story. I had never had general anesthesia before and was really quite apprehesive about it. The doctor knew this and gave me some Versed to relax me before the proceedure. All I remember about the surgery was that I said goodbye to my family and was being wheeled into the operating room. I remember noting that the OR looked smaller than I thought it would be, and the next thing I recall was waking up in the recovery room. So if you are apprehensive about that like I was (admittedly like a big baby) don't be.

Hang in there...things will get better for you soon.

Pina

Angela,

I am so sorry to hear of your husband's plight. You are right there in St. Pete. Have you ever seen Dr. Thomas C. Tolli in your town? He is one of the best around anywhere, and known for his thoroughness. Plus, he takes most insurance plans. If your husband has not been to him, I would try to make an appointment.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing bad at all to say about LSI and Bonati, but they are not set up to deal with emergent or acute problems and they are expensive due to their lack of taking most insurance. Also, I don't completely love how they advertise that they are the only doctors who do their type of minimally invasive proceedure. Its just not true so dont be afraid to ask around to other orthos and neuros to see if they can help.

I wish you the best, truly.

Pina3013

Hello Pina,

I'm very glad that your recovery is going so very well. FANTASTIC!!!

I have a question to ask about your surgeon and also Dr. Toli. It seems best that I ask the questions through a PM which I will send to you as soon as I finish this post.

Have a GREAT Day.

RichT

Pina,

Thanks so much for taking the time to read my post and to give me any suggestions. Its funny that you mention Dr. Tolli as my mother-n-law heard a lot of good things about him and suggested that we see him asap. My husband goes to pain mgmt tomorrow to his his first injection - transforaminal epidural steroid injection and i am just praying that he will get a little relief from that. I do have good insurance and have already met my ded's and oop max and I did see that Dr. Tolli is in-network which is a huge plus. I am just heartbroken to see my husband in so much pain... he thougth surgery was the answer but it just made it 10 times worse. Then while going through this ordeal, his mother was diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer and underwent surgery a week 1/2 ago- she is doing wonderful and they are hopefull. Best thing is that her chemo will not start until the first of 2008..so a little of a break for her. It is just such a hard time and each day just gets worse and worse... i am determined to do whatever i need to get my husband well. We are only in our mid 30's and have so much life to live and it is a shame that we can't catch a break. Anyway, enough sadness...I hope that you continue to have a successfull recovery and thank you again for such kind and supportive words:-)

Angela

Angela,

I know all this can be so overwhelming. But really, its the pain the skews the perspective. Last week, I was on the floor at the hospital crying in pain so bad that they had to bump other patients to get me through my pre-op processing. When your husbands pain is relieved you will be able to breath easier and have better perspective on things. Last week, I swore that I would rather die that stay in that pain and it was all I could think about. I am an attorney and was rendered useless last week for anything except dealing with my situation.

Someone WILL get your husband out of pain, one way or another. Just find the right surgeon. I am only 41 and am not happy either that I have to deal with this, but you know, it could be a lot worse, and I am thankful for that.

Hang in there. And remember - action solves problems, not thinking about it. Start making appointments with surgeons, don't start thinking about making appointments.

Good luck!

Pina3013

Hi all, I have been reading all of the stories of pain and believe it or not, I feel deeply the pain, stress, and fear of each person posting. I was there.

May I make this suggestion. Make sure you get from all of your doctors their written report of what they plan to do and with a follow up of what they actually did post surgery. I have kept my PCP fully informed of each step I was taking during my year and a half search for spinal treatment.
My full spinal record from its beginning, through Mri"s, Extension/Flexion X-Ray's, all of my Pain Management Doctors procedures and notes and my final pre-op and post-op written records are now with my PCP. I have done that because I want one doctor to have a complete record of my spinal history. One never knows if this part of the body will have another problem appear.

This pain you all experience will pass. All that is needed is finding the right surgeon. That is the hardest and is what makes this Forum so valuable to others.

When we are allowed to name our doctors, at least that gives an aid to others concerning just who are special spinal surgeons who have successful results.

I never was sure if my surgical results would be successful because I have heard so many people who have had more then one spinal surgery for a multitude of reasons. Knowing that, caused more fear thoughts in me then just having one operation. But here I am 4 weeks and 3 days post op with my first post op visit to my surgeon today. I am doing great!

Dr. Robert McLain of the Cleveland Clinic Spine Institute is an excellent surgeon and he never once fluffed off any of my questions during the 2 pre-op visits nor the one post op visit I had with him. He never hurried me at all at any time. He is wonderfully kind and caring and I would recommend him to anyone. In fact, I am passing around in my locale, his name and all of the type spinal surgeries he addresses. It is unbelievable to me, now that I had this spine problem, just how many other people suffer from this part of the body that betrays its owner.
Thank heaven for the Internet and my persistent search for wanting to find a doctor who would address what he believed to be the cause of my pain and had no hiddend agendas. And thank heavens for those who posted on the Forums like, Fran, Joebob and all the different people who have had this surgery of the back with all of its multiple type problems which create the most excruciating pain one could ever imagine experiencing.

Good Luck to all who are looking in the face that knife that can or can not bring relief. Believe me when I say, it is that hand behind that knife that will be the one to determine the success of the surgery and all of his educated decisions on studying your problem.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL that your recovery from surgery continues to be GREAT!!

You indeed did your research VERY well. And that is now paying off immense dividends for you. You are SOOOooo right, it is the hand holding the knife that makes all the difference in the world. I know I certainly feel that way about my PM doc and his experise in getting the needle to the exact place it needs to be so the corticosteroid and take care of the inflammation.

WOW, my hat off to you for the detaled records you have kept regarding your back.

Thank you so very much for sharing. It not only helps those of us who post on this thread, but countless people who just "look in".

Have a WONDERFUL Day!!!

RichT

Hello Angela,

I hope and pray that your husband's pain will be reduced after he has his epidural injection. Just be patient, it can take several days for the corticosteroid to reduce the inflammation.

I also agree with Pina, do make appointments to see highly respected spinal surgeons. Of course to do that requires doing your research to find those special surgeons.

I wish your husband and you the very best.

RichT

P.S. - I just realized tomorrow and the 12th will be very busy days. Your husband will be getting his epidural injection tomorrow, Innovator's son will have back surgery at Bonati on the 12th, and this ole guy will have an important discussion with my spinal surgeon tomorrow. Seems like I'm missing someone else. We sure do help the docs pay for their new Corvettes.

Rich. I know you have always mentioned that you have two areas of stenosis in you spine. I can't remember if you have ever identified what the cause of that stenosis is.

My MRI report written by the radiologist, gave the impression that I had a wide based buldging disd at L4. He also mentioned that the ligamentum flavum had buckled. From what I understand, the ligamentum flavum is a lining inside and encompasses the central canal that extends from level to level. Upon entry to the spine, what my surgeon found as my main cause of pain in the buttocks and legs was not so much caused by the buldging disc but there was so much of the ligamentum flamum that had buckled that there was over an inch of soft tissue pressing against the cauda equina at the L4 and top of the L5. He said that is soft tissue, but with time that soft tissue hardens into bone quality which can then create more pain and difficulties for the person. It must have been really an awful lot because the orthopedic surgeon who is studying spine surgery with Dr. McLain told me it was a very large amount of tissue. Dr. Berg said he would have hated to deal with that much material so close to the central nerve if it had turned to hard bone and not remained soft. Evidently, an MRI does not completely identify the state of that material.

It was nice having two surgeons working on me. What I would forget to ask one, I could alway ask the other and I could also follow up for more clarification with Dr. McLain if I didn't understand fully what Dr. Berg would tell me.

Let me also say, Dr. McLain did a really thorough job covering all of the processes from the spinal processes to the transverse processes to the lateral processes. He took no chance that there was any stenosis left anywhere. He also did bilateral foraminotomies at L4-5 and the entrance into L5-S1. He decompressed all of the nerve endings and the disc is left to recover with no need for a partial discectomy. I asked him about that and he said that if the disc is not herniated with material thrown out, he prefers to leave the disc alone if it is not the cause of the pain. All depends upon what that disc is pressing on..if it is pressing on any nerve or the central nerve cord.

I know some people may not be interested in knowing all of these kind of details but all of this is extremely interesting to me. I have a medical/surgical background and what this did was update me on what new procedures are now being done and what instruments are being used by competent, updated surgeons.

I hope everyone tries to understand what exactly is their problem because if there is anything that can cause fear is for someone to say, "I had back surgery and I still have pain." There is so much to know and understand and if you take the time to do that necessary research, you will know exactly what to ask your doctor and you will understand what he is saying to you if he is a truly understanding and caring physician.

I did get two different names for the surgical table. Dr. Berg said it was a Wilson Frame, but Dr. McLain said it was a Jackson table. I have to check to see what the difference is.

Marie B.

Hello All,

Saw my spinal surgeon this morning. The one that said back in August I needed to have back surgery within 6 months, with two fusions and a nice 12" incision. Today he asked how things were going and I said "Very well". Then he wanted me to stand up, bend forward, and then backwards, all the time running his fingers up and down my spine. Next he studied my MRI images again. Then he said "You have a lot wrong with your back, but being you are doing fairly well it seems best to let well enough alone at this time." That was music to my ears. As he was leaving he said to give him a call if there were any changes. My next appointment is with my PM doc in mid March '08.

So have a beer on me.

Angela, I hope your husband's epidural injection went well, and pray that it will reduce his pain.

Innovator, hope all is okay. A bit concerned not having heard from you. My thoughts and prayers with your son and his surgery tomorrow.

RichT

Hi Rich!

I'm so glad your appointment went well yesterday! Not much of a beer drinker, but I'd be glad to celebrate with a good cup of coffee! Fair enough? hee hee

Anyway, very happy for you and hope all continues to go well with your injection!

Welcome to the new members!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

RichT:

We made it to Bonati ok.
Bonati was very thorough in all the testing up front running new MRIs, Xrays, blood tests and Nerve testing as well as discussions on pain management.

Being patient here is a virtue as you do have to wait sometimes to get in for various appts but it was never more than an hour wait. If more than this they would tell us and we had the option to go home.

My son found out he has an six vertabra from the excellent MRIs they do at this facility. so they called it L6/S1.

My son had facet surgery yesterday. He had facet surgery on the left and right sides in one surgery at 6 locations total L4/L5 and L6. His original back pain is gone replaced by surgery back pain. He tells me it is just very sore at the surgery sight. An added benefit is that his leg pain and numbness on the left side is gone. All the butt pain and back pain is gone except at the surgery site.

They did find while he was here that he has blood in his urine. They beleive this is related to his recent gall bladder issues but want him to see an urologist to get it checked out and make sure there is no bigger issue.

The next few days will tell alot. They have him scheduled for another surgery. He has a large herniation at L5/S1 with scar tissue from a previous conventional surgery. Dr. Moffatt told him that he wants to see how the first surgery goes before even considering the second. If my son is satisfied with the facet results early next week he will not do the second surgery. If the herniation gets worse we can come back later.

Very nice facility... Very professional staff. I have seen many people with positive results and a few with not so positive results.
But each case is different and the results can be differnent as with conventional.

For your info I was not ask for any money until after all the testing was done and surgery was scheduled. As you know my son has no insurance.
My $20k I beleive was very went spent just on all the tesing and analysis that was done.

Innovator54

Hello Innovator,

One big sigh of relief when I saw you had posted. Then as I read through your post a "Thank you good Lord.".

Innovator, over and over and over again I hear (read) of the fantastic care those at Bonati give to their patients. Okay, they do get behind and that can be irritating, but at least you know they are taking the time they need for each and every patient.

WOW, to know that your son does not have his "original" back pain is wonderful news. Yes, I'm sure he is very sore from the surgery. Not fun I'm sure. I hope that as each day goes my the "surgical" pain gets less and less. Amazing!!!! that his leg pain and numbness are gone. Even more amazing is that his butt and back pain are gone.

MAN do they ever put their patients thruogh a testing program, and don't just skip over "irregularties" like the blood in the urine. THAT is being thorough!!!!

May your son's recovery go well.

Thanks so very very much for sharing. Yep, those thoughts and prayers are still going your way.

We look forward to your continuing updates.

RichT

Hi again Guys,

I did show up for the surgery and all went well.
Right after waking up and even before I could fully open my eyes I asked the care attendant, “Are my toes pointing up?” she said, “what”? I said “My toes. They’re pointing down now right, now I’m trying to raise them. Are they pointing up?”
She said one foot was pointing up more than the other. This was what was happening before surgery.

About that time I began to tremble all over and the pain in my back was horrible. They gave me a warm blanket and asked if I was in any pain. Yeah I said. A few minutes later the pain subsided and they wheeled me to my room 15 minutes later.

As you said, the only pain I have felt since then is stiffness from the incision.
I came home the next morning and last night was about the worst so far due to muscles stiffness. But once I took a pain pill that subsided greatly. I’ve been up and about and feeling better. Taking short walks around the yard and house. Following the Dr’s orders to a T and I’m not going to do anything to risk causing a reherniation.

So I’m happy so far. I hope the rest of you that are suffering with chronic pain quick relief. Back pain or any pain that goes on and on without letup takes its toll on your body and soul. My heart goes out to all those who are dealing with pain on a daily basis.
And thanks to those who replied so quick to my questions and concerns.

However I am feeling ever so slight nerve pain shooting down my leg and it's not where the original pain was.

Billy H

Hi there, everyone
I’ve suffered with pain in my back and left leg intermittently for 30 odd years (I'm 47 now). After a very bad car accident in 94 and following much cynicism from many docs over many years I was finally diagnosed with a prolapsed disc at L5/S1.

I had spinal fusion and a nerve decompression in 97 which worked for a while until boney overgrowth bothered the sciatic nerve again. I subsequently had a second decompression in 98 which was unsuccessful. The pain had exacerbated to the point that I was in constant agony, taking a shed load of meds and wheeled about in a chair unable to do simplest of tasks for myself,

After many nerve blocks, facet joint injections, and seeing chiropractors, osteopaths, acupuncturists, followed an intensive pain management programme and a host of other stuff I have been left with bad days where I'm completely immobile or better days when I walk with a crutch. The pain varies from unbelievable agony to being bearable, but it's always there in my back, buttock and leg. I've been told there's nothing else that can be done for me except for pain management so I've been left taking daily: gabapentin, mexilitine, baclofen, meptazinol, diclofenac, tramadol and when it's worse I add methadone, diazepam and dihydrocodeine into the mix. I do stretches and pilates when I can which seems to help.

I'm going thru a hell of a relapse which has lasted now about 2 mths and even on all these meds, the pain's breaking through. My regular osteopath (of 8 yrs) has recently left England, but even he couldn’t help this time. The guy he recommended me to referred me back to my GP for further investigations i.e MRI GP’s cut back on some of my meds and added MST (slow-release morphine) I’m now at the max dose of 50mg twice daily which is just about controlling the breakthrough pain. I’m still stuck in bed lying on my side with a pillow btw my legs, can’t sit up (I kind of lean to one side) for more than a few mins, can’t walk at all, even the good old tens doesn’t help.


I was actually looking for some advice for help out there, when I was directed to this amazing group of people by the wonderful ‘heart as big as the sun’ RichT. I’ve read thru just about every thread from pg1 to 33. Your stories have had me sobbing into my orange-juice, so angry at yr docs/surgeons the air round my bed has been VERY ‘blue’ You’ve had me laughing out loud, which is hard because that hurts, I so wish I’d been a fly on the wall the day 1 of you ( Fran I think ) socked yr doc and if ever your boxing gloves come out of retirement…I’ve a bit of a list myself if you wouldn’t mind! I’ve learnt so much but my head has been left spinning with all your knowledge and you’ve saved my sanity at many a moment.

Now I’d have loved to be able to get to The Bonati Institute to have LSS but my pennies don’t stretch that far. I’ve found out about a surgeon a ‘Mr Martin Knight’ who performs Minimally Invasive Surgery here in the UK at ‘The Spinal Foundation’ (check out their website if you have time). I’ve read just about all I can find on Mr Knight and it all sounds/looks pretty impressive,

I’d like to pick your brains if you wouldn’t mind, a) has anyone heard of/about him over at your end of the pond and b) in an fool-proof way ( honestly I’ve read Pina3013’s post 3-4 times but my mind still goes blank) could someone perhaps explain what either of these procedures are, I think I’m on so many pills that you literally have to hold my hand and show me the pretty pictures.

Minimally Invasive Lumbar Spinal Surgery
Lumbar Endoscopic Laser Decompression and Foraminoplasty

Thanks for allowing me to ramble on for so long. I’d like to say, continued success for those who have had their surgeries and are doing well. Much luck to those who are about to have their surgeries and to those of us who are still fighting, fingers-crossed, one day we too will be pain free.

Noelle

Noelle,

I just had this type of surgery last week. I was not in the kind od pain you were in but I researched all I could before the surgery and read every post I could find to find out the rusults of such a surgery.

Here is a website that has interactive vidio's. Just scroll down to your type of surgery, click on the link, accept there terms then click the self running presentation. It will give you an idea of what is preformed during surgery.

http://www.spine-health.com/dir/dir01.html

Hope that helps.

this thread has been very informative HOWEVER i wish i could talk LIVE to a Bonati patient him/herself... anyone who has had surgery there, please consider allowing me to phone you.... please just send me a message and i can share my phone number with you...

i am harmless, i promise : )

you can check out my profile and the link to my website....

gail (newbie)

Rich T: Glad to hear everything went so well at your appointment. It's always a good thing when the doctor says call him if anything changes. It sounds like you can get around and bend much better.

Hello to all my spiney friends.

Hello Guy,

Thanks for your post.

Yes, I'm much MUCH better now than I was this spring. And I must say hearing those words from my doc "Lets leave well enough alone" sure helped me mentally.

I wish everyone with back pain would be able to eliminate or at least greatly reduce their pain, and hopefully to do so without extensive surgery.

Have a GREAT Weekend!!!!

RichT